OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Thu May 27, 2004 6:58 am

>>>Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Wow! He figured that out all by himself?  Insane

(Oh, BTW, I have an aircraft that can bypass hubs...)  Big grin
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
atcboy73
Posts: 1084
Joined: Sat Sep 08, 2001 10:09 am

RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Thu May 27, 2004 7:51 am

Yep

ATC knows banks of flights at hubs causes delays.

I think Boeing is going the right way. Or maybe I should say the better way (than a bigger 747) in developing a smaller, fuel efficient air craft.

Id love to see this thing flying some routes like BOS,PDX or DFW to Hong Kong. Or how about SAN, PDX, HNL or to London or MIA, STL, PHL or PHX to NRT.

I think well be seeing some new and interesting routes open up with this plane.
 
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PW100
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RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Fri May 28, 2004 4:51 am

Off course Alan conveniently forgot to mention that most of his 7E7 flights will operate to/from a hub at one end or the other . . .  Innocent The 7E7 might be hub bypassing on one end of its flight, but not on both ends . . .



I can see it operate ORD/JFK/LAX/ATL/IAD/etc to HAM/GVA/MAN/STR/NCE/etc;

I can see it operate LHR/CDG/AMS/MAD/MUC/etc to SAN/OAK/STL/PIT/MSY/etc

I can't see it operate SAN/OAK/STL/PIT/MSY/etc to HAM/GVA/MAN/STR/NCE/etc

Well you get the point I guess. If at all, the 7E7 will make the superhub even more attractive by allowing smaller O&D cities/aiports to be connected to a [super]hub, and therefore will increase congestion at hub airports rather than alleviate it . . .



PW100
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elwood64151
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Joined: Fri Feb 08, 2002 10:22 am

RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Fri May 28, 2004 5:17 am

1) No duh.

2) I don't think the 7E7 is going to allow airlines to bypass hubs any more than they would have, anyway. The economics of it suggest they will simply lower the fares to the point where the 7E7 will be flying into the hubs.

3) Airlines that have moved to de-peaked hubs have found that their operations move much better. ATC likes it this way, too.

4) This is kind of a sham of a press release from Boeing. It's really just a way of engineering goodwill, which it will probably succeed in a minimal way, but since it's minimal effort, I guess that fits.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
cowboy
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RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Fri May 28, 2004 5:23 am

Actually, airlines that schedule more flights into a hub than what the airport and ATC can safely operate, is the cause of airport congestion. The reason FAA asked AA and UA to reduce their flight schedule into ORD was the fact that from 2pm to 8pm they had scheduled more flights than could be handled. Before their flight increases, ORD operated at 100 AAR. That's what it was desinged to handle. When UA and AA went mano a mano, they flight schedule was more like a DFW'ish 125 AAR, and not possible. Thats why on clear and a million days, ORD is in a GDP from the get go.
 
Guest

RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Fri May 28, 2004 5:32 am

yipee this wonderful argument has arisen again

Off course Alan conveniently forgot to mention that most of his 7E7 flights will operate to/from a hub at one end or the other . . . The 7E7 might be hub bypassing on one end of its flight, but not on both ends . . .

basically hit the nail on the head there

I take it this is also a stab at the A380

True, the A380 could increase congestion at big airports by encouraging hub and spoke systems and therefore attacting more feeder flights. But if airlines start using the A380 at overcrowded hub airports and want to start offering more feeder flights they going to have themselves a problem, they wont be able to get many more slots to operate more feeder flights.

So 3 options are

a) Reduce L/haul frequencies and use larger A/C to free up slots

b) Maintain L/haul frequencies but use larger aircraft, thus allowing more O&D traffic through

c) Maintain L/haul frequencies and increase the A/C size of feeder flights, meaning no additional flights have been added but more pax will flow through.

just my theory

[Edited 2004-05-27 22:34:48]
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Fri May 28, 2004 8:16 am

Yeah, but at slot controlled airports, the A380 won't ease congestion. No aircraft would.

Let's say airline X has 16 slots at ORD.

They buy and put in service the A380 which means they cut frequency.

Instead of 16 flights they operate 8 now.

Who here thinks they'll give those slots up for a competitor to snag?

Those other 8 slots will be used to add frequency or new service with other aircraft types, probably Rjs.

Congestion is here to stay, we're not going to see FEWER flights even with larger aircraft. Maybe fewer flights to a particular destination, but not overall. Even if every airline out of ORD converted to the A380, those extra slots would be gobbled up for RJ service of additional mainline service. The answer to the congestion problem is newer, more advanced ATC systems and runway reconfiguration in the case of O'Hare. Not larger planes.
Go Cubs!
 
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RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Fri May 28, 2004 8:19 am

yeh it wont relieve congestion but it will allow more pax to go through at no extra aircraft movement cost.
 
highliner2
Posts: 637
Joined: Mon Nov 20, 2000 1:26 pm

RE: Mulally: Hub-And-Spoke Causes Airport Congestion

Fri May 28, 2004 2:58 pm

Perhaps, but this problem is pertaining to the number of aircraft moving through the sky, not the number of passengers moving around.
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