XA744
Topic Author
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Thu May 27, 2004 12:42 pm

Howdy Fellows:

I am quite aware this issue could turn into a complicated and controversial thing but never mind. I would like to invite all of you out there aviation maniacs, to submit your own ideas, suggestions and proposals that you thing could be contained in a 5 year ( 2005-2010 ) business plan for Aeromexico and Mexicana separately.

For those of us that have dreamed of starting our own airline ( I promise you to launch "Inter Air Mexico" or something like that in the after life ), this is a nice opportunity to speak our minds and maybe even get heard at management level with CINTRA, AM and MX, you never know. Lets assume for a minute that this can really happen, while we have a great brainstorming session that we can enjoy to the limit !

The objective of this thread is to highlight the importance of having in Mexico a truly competitive commercial aviation, something absolutely representative of what this country has to offer the world.

Kindly present here only constructive opinions and remarks and avoid confrontation by all means. Would be great to stick to the KISS principle when ever possible, but of course you can always elaborate on any topic you might consider critical.

I would like to begin by saying that before anything else, a Corporate Vision should be defined for each airline. My proposal is as follow:

Aeromexico: To be the largest, most successful and most respected airline in Latin America.

Mexicana: To be the most dynamic and fastest growing airline in the world.

Your proposals should always have in mind the following guidelines that any business plan should comply with:

1.- Market Overview ( Macro Characteristics of markets currently served )
2.- Customer behavior ( FFP's, Internet Booking, E Tkts, etc. )
3.- Competition ( Other products in the market )
4.- Market Segmentation ( Ethnic, VFR, Leisure, MICE, Students, etc. )
5.- Marketing Strategies ( Fares, Loyalty programs, IFE, Meals, )
6.- Sales Action Plan ( Agency sales, Website, etc. )
7.- Marketing Support
8.- Alliances / Code Shares / SPA´s
9.- SWOT Analysis ( Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats now being faced by both AM and MX )
10.- Expansion opportunities ( fleet and network )

Looking forward to having your inputs.

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Thu May 27, 2004 12:47 pm

Very nice topic! I'll try to give a full answear tomorrow. And I'll team up with LeoDf and Mx330!

Ricardo APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6175
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Thu May 27, 2004 1:44 pm

For all those with too much free time on your hands and armchair CEO delirium, here's the topic you have been waiting all these years. By the way, ever heard of the Myth of Sisyphus?
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
JOSEMEX
Posts: 1437
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 11:44 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Thu May 27, 2004 2:11 pm


> I'll team up with LeoDf and Mx330!<

Go for it, guys! Many of us will sure like to see what you come up with (then again, I'm quite sure some others won't).  Wink/being sarcastic
 
anthsaun
Posts: 510
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2004 3:32 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Thu May 27, 2004 2:47 pm

This is a good game.

I'll post something later on.
Over 80 years in business say a lot about success
 
britmex
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2000 3:26 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Thu May 27, 2004 3:40 pm

All right:

Well this topic will get really HOT!!!!!!!!!!! I can feel it.

Anyway I`ll clarify som of my points first.

1- I`m not a CINTRA defender any more. It is a monopoly and it is not
letting the market grow naturally.

2- CINTRA was a necessary thing to keep our aviation alive. Otherwise
there would be LAN Mèxico or Aero Continente Mexico just waiting to
take off. Or worst of all, TAESA would be doing MX), Mexico">MEX-CDG`s!!!!!!!!

3- There have not been true aviation entrepreneurs in Mexico, in other
industries within our country they are scarce, yet we are FULL of old
fashioned "caciques" and "tycoons" who think they are aviation
know-it-all. FE: Mr. Abed.

4- WE NEED LEADERS like SW`s Mr. Kelleher, Freddie Laker or Richard
Branson. Someone willing to risk his arse together with all employees!!!

5- WE NEED also someone who sells the idea to the government that
a contry NEEDS a well developed transport network (TRAINS, roads,
airports all linked together and working for EACH OTHER)


when at least some of this points are met I`ll start my own airline. Meanwhile I`m going to have a good time planning it.

britmex

ps finally I decided ...I`M GOING TO BE MEXICO`S RICHARD BRANSON!!!!!

so "NO WAY AM /MX"
Aeromexico, la linea aerea que va para arriba
 
adriaticus
Posts: 989
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:29 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Fri May 28, 2004 4:16 am

EddieDude: << By the way, ever heard of the Myth of Sisyphus? >>

I've remembered Albert Camus repeatedly, just from reading so many self-torturing threads and posts displaying the same impotency and desperation of intellectual creation he brilliantly talked about...

Granted, I most certainly hope some planning, strategy and administration officials of our beloved carriers are reading these posts!!

Plus I'm glad I was not the only one thinking... "What in the world is going on here? What's all the ruckus about?"

__Ad.
A300/18/19/20/21 B721/2 B732/3/G/8 B741/2/4 B752 B762/3/4 B772/3 DC8/9/10 MD11 TU134/154 IL62/86 An24 SA340/2000 E45/90
 
XA744
Topic Author
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Fri May 28, 2004 10:51 am

Britmex,

I like points 4 and 5 in your posting.

Can someone explain to me like if I were a 6 year old kinder gardener, why in the name of god our neoliberal politicians, brilliant, glorious and magnanimous in every possible way, have not yet realized that Mexico needs for its development a strong, dynamic and diversified aviation industry ?

P.S. You can use apples or tangerines to facilitate your presentation.

No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Fri May 28, 2004 10:57 am

XA-744 that's obvious:

The country is run by pendejos.

And yes, delete this if you want to.

Have a nice day....



[Edited 2004-05-28 03:59:14]
 
XA744
Topic Author
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Fri May 28, 2004 11:20 am

Yes FLY2HMO, we all know that and I do appreciate you having gone directly to the point. However, some analysis is needed in order to understand what is really behind our failed aviation industry....

.... and I think there´s no need to delete what adds a spicy touch to this issue.

No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
JOSEMEX
Posts: 1437
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 1999 11:44 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Fri May 28, 2004 12:39 pm



>The country is run by pendejos.<

For all of you non-spanish speakers out there:

"pendejos" = "a*sholes"

 Big grin
 
Fly2HMO
Posts: 7207
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:14 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Fri May 28, 2004 1:16 pm

O.K. glad nobody's offended.  Big thumbs up

I'll think of some business plan to contribute to this thread.

Saludos  Smile

[Edited 2004-05-28 06:17:25]
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 4:46 am

2005-2010

This is our 5 year proposal (2005-2010) for MX/AM by LeoDf and Ghost77.

Corporate vision for each airline:

Mexicana & AeroMexico: Rank on the Top 5 list of best airlines in the American Continent.

1.- Market Overview ( Macro Characteristics of markets currently served )

In case of still be owned by CINTRA holding:
Mexicana and AeroMexico need to make a route system standardization. This is work together on the Mexican internal market. AM should drop ORD. And on the International market we would reinforce the presence worldwide.

In case both airlines are already sold:
Mexicana should focus more on the ethnic/leisure travelers. Therefore MX doesn’t need to change their current system network to the US and Canada.

AeroMexico should focus on the business travelers market. AM should instead look for stronger markets like SAT and Texas instead of loosing the time and money in BOS.

2.- Customer behavior ( FFP's, Internet Booking, E Tkts, etc. )

We would leave it the way it is now. Both are solid in these aspects. Probably we would add more publicity on the internet. (i.e. websites)

3.- Competition ( Other products in the market )

Right now with the government behind our ass there’s not real market competition. Therefore we don’t know what it really is to be in the Mexican Aviation Industry with market competition. We would let the others do what they have to do and our selves would work hard to be the best in the market!

4.- Market Segmentation ( Ethnic, VFR, Leisure, MICE, Students, etc. )

See point 1.

5.- Marketing Strategies ( Fares, Loyalty programs, IFE, Meals, )

Mexicana And AeroMexico
Fares: LOWER THE FARES!
Loyalty Programs: Give free tickets or fare specials to those who are really loyal to the airline.
IFE: On all our medium/long haul aircraft.
Meals: If Aviacsa and Azteca offer meals with those cheap fares WE would also offer meails on board!

6.- Sales Action Plan ( Agency sales, Website, etc. )

They should value what the agencies do for them... without the agencies their sales would dramatically decrease and without the airlines agencies would not exist. As a hint… 85 to 90% of the sales come from the Travel Agencies. 10 to 15% come from their own sale offices. We would raise Commissions to Travel Agencies again to a 10%. If this was possible and profitable for the airlines years ago, why not doing it again?

7.- Marketing Support

Marketing is currently doing fine.

8.- Alliances / Code Shares / SPA´s

Mexicana
Everything is find, but to make it better, we would enter to OneWorld. And we would drop all other agreements with Star Members.

9.- SWOT Analysis ( Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, Threats now being faced by both AM and MX )

Mexicana:

Strengths: Obviously our fleet, Experience, Partners, Destinations, Name reputation
Weaknesses: HIGH FARES, Burocracy (government owned), Lack of Efficiency
Opportunities: Partners and their nice and efficient network. The new administration
Threats: COMPETITION. OPEN SKIES IN MEXICO. LACK OF VISION IN THE MARKET, AND THEY NEVER RISK.

AeroMexico:
Strenghts: Partners, Name reputation.
Weaknesses: HIGH FARES, Fleet, Burocracy. Lack of Efficiency. UNIONS.
Opportunities: Skyteam Partners and the new administration.
Threats: COMPETITION. INTERNAL OPEN SKIES. LACK OF VISION IN THE MARKET, AND THEY DON’T RISK.

10.- Expansion opportunities ( fleet and network )

Mexicana

Network: 53 International and domestic destinations including AeroCaribe. And we would add:
Schedule FROM MEXICO CITY

Canada: YYC (5x) and YHM (3x).
Charters during the winter to: YWG.

USA: DFW (2x daily), PHL (7x), BWI (7x), SEA (7x), IAD(7x) , SJU(4x) and HNL.(1 weekly)
Caribbean and Central America: SDQ (4 weekly), PUJ (2 weekly), VRD (7x), PTY (7x), SXM (1 weekly).

South America: UIO(4x), GRU (7x), GIG (7x), SCL.(7x).

Europe: LHR (4x), AMs (4X), MAD (7x), BCN (3x), FRa (7x), MUC (3x), MXP (4).

From Monterrey

USA: MIA (we would try to gain Aviacsa’s currently market)

Central America: GUA (3x), SJO (3x), PTY (3x).

Europe: MAD (4x) BCN (3x).

From Cancún

South America: SCL (1x) EZE (1x)

Europe: LHR (3x), LGW (3x), MAN (3x), DUS (2x), FRa (2x) MUC (2x). MXP (3x). ORY (3x), MAD (3x), LIS (1 weekly), ZRH (1 weekly).

Total: 31 new destinations.

Current Fleet:

09x Dc9
10x F100
16x A319
25x A320
09x B757
01x B767

With the new destinations, fleet would be like this:

10x F100
10x A318
20x A319
25x A320
12x B752
18x B763

During all this process we have taken complete control of AeroCaribe. New brand is Mexicana Inter wearing the same scheme on the fleet with additional titles of ‘Inter’ using the F100s and offering lower fares.

AeroMexico

From MEXICO CITY

South America: LIM (7x) GRU (10x), GIG (7x), SCL.(7x).

Europe: LHR (4x), AMs (4X), MAD (14x), CDG (14x) FCO (7x), ZRH (4x).

Asia: NRT (7x), HKG (7x), ICN (3x). ALL THIS FLIGHTS VIA TIJ w. 772ER.

From Monterrey

Europe: MAD (7x), CDG (7x)

From Guadalajara

Europe: MAD (4x)

Total: 31 new destinations.

Current Fleet:

22x 340
03x 145
03x Dc9
16x M87
26x M88
07x B737
06x B757
06x B767

With the new destinations, fleet would be like this:

30x 145
15x B736
15x B737
15x B738
12x B739
10x B767
10x B777

Aerolitoral brand would also disappear and it we would rename it as AeroMexico Regional.

.
Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
LeoDF
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 1999 11:44 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 4:49 am

This reply had us hours discussing and planning everything! Hope you enjoy it!!
Lloyd Aereo Boliviano
 
britmex
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2000 3:26 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 6:48 am

it is interesting to notice that in our ASSA yearly contract negotiations there were no problems at all and the deal was signed even before the deadline; 31 May. I think the unoin problems with AM may be a thing past. We are all tired of strikes, marching and other plitical issues. However, BOS was a carefully planned route. The market is there, I think the airline needs a more clever publicity.

COncerning MX, the airline must go completely Airbis. It is a whole different system, tooling, training and philosophy. The 757 may still be a good airliner but MX must rather have more A320`s, A330`s and A340`s. Otherwise all training, tooling and even fleet management will get complicated.

britmex

ps my plan is on the making
Aeromexico, la linea aerea que va para arriba
 
XA744
Topic Author
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 9:10 am

Ghost77, LeoDF:

Very neat presentation !

I like very much your vision in regards to placing Mexicana as a more regional airline, consolidating its strong presence in Mexico, the U.S.A., Canada and Central America / Caribbean. Mexicana, the most dynamic and fastest growing airline in the world !... Yes, looking forward to seeing that in the very near future !

As per Aeromexico, I have always thought that its scope as a long range carrier should be maintained and additionally increased. Yes, you guys are right when saying that Aeromexico should focus in the corporate and business market segments. More attractive and really competitive front end products have to be introduced quickly. AM across the Pacific ?. Well, I think that´s a risky business like I have mentioned in previous posts. However, "I would place all my beef tenderloins on the grill" and start a MEX-TIJ-PVG, what the hell !. If the Brazilians and even the Argentinians are doing, why can´t we ?

Best regards
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
EddieDude
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Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 9:12 am

AM is already very strong in IAH and its prospects for ticket sales may improve thanks to the codeshare with CO. DFW has one problem in my opinion and it is schedules; the current schedule benefits neither U.S. business travelers nor Mexican business travelers, so a change of time should be considered. Flying to SAT (which is a 95% leisure market) would be harakiri; MX practically owns the market and can afford to offer good fares. In any case, perhaps AM and CO should cut a deal in the SAT-MEx market so that CO flies the route with mainline jets rather than with regional jets and AM gets the chance to sell a large number of tickets all over the fare spectrum in CO's flights between SAT and MEx.

Just my 2 cents.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
XA744
Topic Author
Posts: 630
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2004 11:40 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 9:32 am

I concur with EddieDude, AM is way too strong in Houston as they have been serving it for about 40 years already. However, I think Aeromexico should drop DWF and give way for Mexicana to develop a strong market at this station. MX/AA code share agreement needs to be pushed to the limit !
No matter how you fly...just never get your wings clipped !
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 2:41 pm

It is interesting to notice that in our ASSA yearly contract negotiations there were no problems at all and the deal was signed even before the deadline; 31 May.

It was about time! After two consecutive years of going on strike I'm glad they got to an agreement on May 26th. Perhaps, Flores was the reason!

The 757 may still be a good airliner but MX must rather have more A320`s, A330`s and A340`s.

The problem is that the 757 its too perfect to fly out from hot and high airports in Mexico and almost all America! I've always said, Boeing is for America as Airbus was made for Europe. AC flies the 321 because they got a similar wx to Europe. US flies 321s to sea level destinations. Air Jamaice same! The A321 its not a good climber out of MEx! And A330 its too big! I think MX made a mistake back in 92 but Airbus probably offered a good deal. Now we have the consequences. No real substitution for the 757.

"I would place all my beef tenderloins on the grill" and start a MX), Mexico">MEX-TIJ-PVG, what the hell !. If the Brazilians and even the Argentinians are doing, why can't we ?

MX and AM are afraid to risk! I think that's the main reason. RG and AR have been always the first Latin carriers to put the example to the others, that's nothing new! And now Lan Chile...! And going stronger! And in those better days Avianca and Viasa are another good example! Even AV had a larger 767 fleet, with N535AW departure they currently got 5, but for 3 years they had a larger 767 fleet compared to AM.

Ricardo APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
britmex
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2000 3:26 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 4:32 pm

Boeing for America and Airbus for Europe?
I don`t agree with that. It is just the same as saying that American cars (which happen to be complete rubbish) are more suited than European ones for our roads, just look around and see that most cars in MExico are European.
Airbus aircraft are very versatile and almost tailored to each airline requirements. That is one of the big reasons the Airbus consortium was formed since in the past most European made aircraft were so tailored to specific users (fe the Vickers VC-10 to BOAC or HS Trident to BEA ) that no market was left for them outside Europe. After learning the lesson they combined their resources and were succesfully introducing fisrt their A300 and then the A320 in the North American market. Inneficient aircraft? Well, ask FedEX about their Airbuses, they are increasing their fleet almost daily.

Although I hold Boeing in great regard they are sleeping in their laurels while Airbus is already showing us the future. The fact that the A320 is the best selling (NOT the most sold) single-aisle aircraft nowadays should tell something to the arrogant Boeing executives.

britmex

ps vive L`Europe!!!!!!!!!

Aeromexico, la linea aerea que va para arriba
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6175
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Sun May 30, 2004 11:58 pm

The efficiency of the A32x's notwithstanding (by the way, I love them), it is very true that 752's are better suited to Mexican carriers because of their range, climb rate and performance from hot & high airports. As nice as the A321 is, it is no match for the 752 and, to that extent, Ghost has a very good point; MX should have at some point acquired/leased more 752's.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2000 2:07 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Mon May 31, 2004 1:09 am

Britmex,

I'm sorry. Reply 18 should read like this:

"Boeing 757 for America and Airbus A321 for Europe".

I was not behind specific but if you read the context you'll see that i was only writing about the B757 and A321. Other Airbus aircraft work fine in all the continent!

MX should have at some point acquired/leased more 752's.

I'm sure MX at the end will do. Hopefully Condor/Thomas Cook get rid of them and MX lease a few more.

Ricardo APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
britmex
Posts: 199
Joined: Wed Nov 15, 2000 3:26 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Mon May 31, 2004 3:31 am

Ok, I got your point:

Yes the 757 may be a good aircraft for Mexican carriers but so far Airbus didn`t plan the A321 as its rival. People tend tu put them against each other due to their quite similar configuration. However, the a321 has smaller range, power, and it is more suited for high density short7medium range operations. The 757 was the repalcement of 707 and Dc-8 which were still used intensively by many of the world`s airlines when it was launched.
In AM`s own situation the 757 was a very good aircraft as cost and performance were concerned, however most complains about comfort (lack of) came from 757 passengers. Also, since a 767 is more versatile since it can be used to both MX), Mexico">MEX-JFK and MX), Mexico">MEX-MD), Spain">MAD or MX), Mexico">MEX-GRU with the same flexibility. Should Am open more routes like MTY-CDG the 767`s would be ready for the challenge.
The 757 is still good as a charter airliner and for some US carriers who fly them in long thin segemnts like ATL-LAX or ORD-MIA. However the A321 is more a rival of the 737-900 which are almost configured like the same thing. In AM`s case the 737-900ERX will replace the 757 and have all the flexibility to be used in a MX), Mexico">MEX-MTY or a MX), Mexico">MEX-BOS, or even a MX), Mexico">MEX-LIM.
Personally I`m sad to see the 757, one of my favourites, out of production, but in today`s avaition costs rule.

Regarding MX, I don`t think the A330-200 is too big for them. Actually is on the same size of a 767-300 yet it holds more cargo, has more power and more range. Also, it has enough flexibility to be cost effective in a MX), Mexico">MEX-LAX (on high season) and then deploy it in a MX), Mexico">MEX-EZE. Should MX start flights to Europe they would already have the advantage of previous experience with the type.

My fleet proposal for both AM and MX is this:

AEROMEXICO

B777-200 4
B767-300 8
B767-200 8
B737-900ERX 10
B737-800 25
B737-700 30
MD-88/82 15
B717-200 20

Why the 717? The MD 87 will eventually need replacement for a more cost effective aircraft and the 717 is the best option. The MD 88 and the newest 82`s in AM`s fleet are still modern.

MEXICANA

A-340 300 5
A-330 200 8
A-320 45
A-319 20
A-318 15

Why not boeings for MX? I don`t see the point of having duplicate tooling and fleet philosophies. Besides an all Airbus fleet will save thousands in crew training.

Britmex

Aeromexico, la linea aerea que va para arriba
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6175
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Mon May 31, 2004 3:52 am

In connection with Britmex' comments (right on target the A321 vs. 752 comment I.M.O.), I always wonder why the 752 is currently without competition. I agree there is a big gap in Airbus' lineup between the A321 and the A332 and very much doubt that Airbus will come up with an extended range version of the A321 ever. On the other hand, Boeing will come up with an extended range version of the 739 (cool!) but mostly expects the 7E3 to be the replacement of choice of the 752. I don't see anything wrong with Boeing touting the 7E3 as the 752 replacement other than the fact that its asking price might be too expensive for many airlines to consider and that its double-aisle configuration might result in additional crew-related expenses for airlines considering it as a 752 replacement.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
navega
Posts: 467
Joined: Tue Nov 02, 1999 10:58 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Mon May 31, 2004 11:30 am

I like the postings but differ in that Mexicana be considered
more a regional airline. I live in the US and Mexicana is
considered the International airline of Mexico. Although
Aeromexico flys to Europe and 2 or 3 cities in South America, if you look at their route system, they are by
far a more domestic/regional airline of Mexico as Mexicana
has far more International destinations.

I would rather see Aeromexico as more regional and Mexicana as more International as they are percieved this
way outside of Mexico.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6175
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Mon May 31, 2004 12:48 pm

I think that there is no contradiction in both airlines positioning themselves in different international markets. As long as they are both owned by CINTRA, they will probably try to develop separate international routes not just in the U.S., but also in South America and Europe. At the same time, I wish MX would add more frequencies to some key domestic routes.
Next flights: MEX-LAX AM 738, LAX-PVG DL 77L, SHA-PEK CA 789, PEK-PVG CA A332, PVG-ORD MU 77W, ORD-MEX AM 738
 
LeoDF
Posts: 349
Joined: Mon Aug 02, 1999 11:44 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:10 am

NAVEGA:

Mexicana has always had a strong image on the US, it is still the airline that carries more passengers between Mexico and the US. Still, Aeromexico has much more experience abroad. Or to put it this way, Mexicana has never flown to Europe (except one time a DC-10 made a "round-the-world" trip).

Mexicana's presence on the US and Canada will always be stronger than Aeromexico's. At least without any codeshares.

But why is it that in the US Mexicana is considered the international airline of Mexico? Of course because of what is mentioned above, but also because Mexicana centers itself on the "ethnic" market. Flights from Zacatecas to Chicago or Chicago-Morelia and much others are nothing but for our paisanos! And the flight hours here known as "guajoloteros".

I think since the beginning, when they first started flying to the US, Mexicana always had much more destinations. Aeromexico had routes to the south, like PTY or CCS, later taken by Mexicana. And of course the JFK approval, which was a bit of a scandal, that Aeromexico won, and didn't let Mexicana fly to New York until 1989!

So I think it's not a matter of being regional or not, it's rather an experience matter or even worse, maybe a political matter don't know. In the late 80's Mexicana served SEA, DFW, PHL, and other destinations later closed. But they have opened new routes like Portland and still have the most destinations to the US than any other Mexican carrier. And serve 5 destinations on California, 5 of the 7 international airports they have (they lack San Diego and Ontario). 13 destinations, not bad! NOW THAT'S PRESENCE! But they lack European destinations, which are served by Aeromexico and are known to be very competitive to other airlines.

I do hope to see in the future a market diversification, in order for these airlines to experience new routes, new airplanes, new countries, new passengers, new airports!

A. De Leo
"PiloT"
Lloyd Aereo Boliviano
 
cessnalady
Posts: 281
Joined: Tue May 25, 2004 7:12 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:26 am

Ghost77& LeoDF: you have done a great job. I agree on all the bottomlines. I don't particularly agree with your ideas about holding on to MX's B752's.

BritMex and EddieDude: I agree with your positions about making MX and all-Airbus carrier, while AM can stick to the different models of Boeing.

Commonality of the aircrafts is a very important element of a cost-savings effort. A B752 is a relatively heavy and powerful airplane that tends to be a little on the excessive side of power and range, for the use MX gives to them. Besides, Boeing is currently in the process of building the very last one  Sad... I don't think MX would do a wise move in investing money in a discontinued aircraft... Unless the lease plan was a real deal!! B752's were great for the CUN-EZE-CUN flights - but too uncomfortable for the pax. I believe an A321 could do the job very well, with similar capacity, less range, a bit -but still enough- power, wider and more comfortable cabins... Operating cost per seat of the A321 is lower than that of a B752.

Plus... I'm sure that if Airbus wants to sell (MX is a good customer), JATS could be aded to a 321's just in case... I remember someone telling me the same discussion (about power) went on about 30 years ago: the B722 was considered "not powerful enough" for MX), Mexico">MEX in the summer mornings... So JATS were added to 10 of them. N one was ever used... And B722's did a great job for the longest time. I was sad to see them go. Sad

ML.
 
ghost77
Posts: 4458
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RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:37 pm

I don't particularly agree with your ideas about holding on to MX's B752's.

MX B757s are newer than AM's, the oldest mfd. in 94 and the most recent was built in 2001. So they are relatively new models, so there's no need to change them. And probably that's the reason of why MX has kept their 757s. Mexicana has been retiring from the oldest models to the latest models. From the Dc10s, followed by the 727s and now its time for the Fokkers to leave. Probably after MX receive all A318s next step could be the 757s. In fact we could even see a new order before year ends. Just like last year with A318s. If we don't its going to be a signal of MX keeping their 757s for a few more years.

A B752 is a relatively heavy and powerful airplane that tends to be a little on the excessive side of power and range, for the use MX gives to them.

I really don't think so. Mexicana got no other choice. A321s simply will not respond while departing on a hot and humid day on summer at 35ºC and 7,343ft! I would love to see the A332 but it's just to much for a MEx-GDL leg. 293 pax in two classes (a.net config) it's just too much compared to the 181! I think instead of bringing more A332s I would be better to bring more A320s. You also have to consider that MX carry cargo for AeroMexpress.

B752's were great for the CUN-EZE-CUN flights - but too uncomfortable for the pax. I believe an A321 could do the job very well, with similar capacity, less range, a bit -but still enough- power, wider and more comfortable cabins...

A321-200 range = 2650nm.
B757-200 range = 3929nm.
CUN-EZE = 3710nm.
A321-200 w. CFM-56-5B3s = 32,200lb
B757 w. PW2040s = 40,100lb.

Best aircraft for the job its the 757! Its going to be boring to see my favorite aircraft going all Airbus.... but oh well I guess I'll have to get used to that! Introduction of the 767 and fleet commonality with 757s its another thing to consider! Hopefully MX goes Boeing on their long haul department!

Ricardo APM  Smile

Ricardo Morales - flyAPM - ¡No es que maneje rapido, solo estoy volando lento!
 
adriaticus
Posts: 989
Joined: Thu May 06, 2004 3:29 pm

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:45 pm

Goodness!! So many well-informed "doctas" opinions here... And I have been out of the forum for a while. Ricardo, Leo, you did an outstanding job... Albrecht, Eduardo, as usual, you guys are hitting the nail in the fine-tune points.

CessnaLady (María?), interesting point. Even when I agree with you (and with Ricardo and Leo) with regard to the A321/B752 debate... I feel inclined to say both sides are correct... And that (Oh, I've discovered warm water!!) there is a gap between A321 and A330, and between B739 and/or B752/3 and B762... Somebody (EddieDude?) mentioned an extended version of the A321 (I'd exchange that for a more powerful-climbing one)... but there must be a reason for it not showing up / being in the drawing board...

However, and going back to the thread's topic: strictly within the boundaries of a 5-year plan for MX/AM, I'd get MX ready to let her B752's go, and have them replaced by a combination of A321's and A330's (hoping some markets really grow). I agree with CessnaLady about commonality, and I think Airbus offers the most interesting options in keeping up with respect tothis topic... No wonder FedEx has chosen A310, A300 and now A380's as their core aircraft, while slowly setting the scenario for gradually phasing out its MD10's/D10's and MD11's...

I'm glad to be back.
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EddieDude
Posts: 6175
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

RE: AM/MX, Your Own 5yr Biz Plan Proposal

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:22 pm

Nah, wasn't me. I mentioned the possible 739 extended-range (I think 739X is the development name) that Boeing is theoretically developing and that might be launched by AM (somebody else said that and I honestly hope it's true).

About an extended-range A321, that would also be cool! After all, as I said, it seems to me that there will be a gap between the 739/A321 and the 7E3/A332Lite once the 752 is discontinued, especially in terms of range so I can see demand for both the 739X and an A321ER.
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