Blackbird1331
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Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 6:12 am

The story of flight 191 will be on the History Channel at 7:00PM Eastern tonight. That is the DC-10 that lost it's left wing on take-off.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
cmckeithen
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 6:14 am

Its on at 7pm in CST. So it has to be 8pm EST.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 6:37 am

Cmckeithen, you are right. 7:00PM show offers other crashes, among them, flight 800. Thank you for the correction.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
cmckeithen
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 6:43 am

Not a problem. Just helping out.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 8:15 am

Just want to put this back on top for those who might not see this otherwise.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
komododx
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 9:00 am

Just to push it up again it's 20:00 hrs EDT and it's on RIGHT NOW!

KdX in TLH
I'm homeless and unemployed
 
westindian425
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 9:10 am

Well, since you beat me to it, I'll just make one correction:

The aircraft lost an engine, not it's wing.

Neil
God did not create aircraft pilots to be on the ground
 
Womack17
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 9:17 am

I am watching and had no idea it would affect me so profoundly. While watching the initial re-enactment I had tears streaming down my face. I knew about this accident but when they make the story personal you just can't help but be affected - God bless all the victims and families of this awful accident.
Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
 
Womack17
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 9:48 am

This is a very interesting special. I would like to hear from some aircraft maintenance personnel about how accurate this special really is.
Oh how I miss Midway Airlines. A class act right to then end.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 10:56 am

Westindian425: Thanks, but am really tired. Proof read my own post and did not see my own mistake. Grounded!

Womack17: This is how it happened. Everybody in the industry takes it seriously, that is why so many people get where they are supposed to.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
jeffrey1970
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 11:07 am

I pray for the families. I have often wondered when crashes like this happen if families sometimes feel left out of the equation when investigations, legal cases, and media reports are all going on about the crash.
God bless through Jesus, Jeff
 
EMBQA
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 11:36 am

I personally didn't find the show that good. In the whole 1 1/2 hours they spent maybe 15 minutes talking about actual causes and events. The rest was footage of more modern accidents and rehashing unimportant information.
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
Silver1SWA
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 11:43 am

I'm watching the program on Modern Marvels and I'm not sure what to think about some of the things they are saying. They are really putting a TON of emphasis on crashes and pilot error. They talked about an Eastern L-1011 crash where the pilots were not aware the plane was descending from 2000 feet all the way to the ground, even after ATC asked them about it?! I've never heard about that accident before, so I have never heard any reports on it, but sometimes I wonder about these airline/crash documentaries. Anyone else catch this program? Its the one before the special on flight 191.
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
geedo
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 1:47 pm

"I personally didn't find the show that good. In the whole 1 1/2 hours they spent maybe 15 minutes talking about actual causes and events. The rest was footage of more modern accidents and rehashing unimportant information."

I was moved by the show, but disappointed in how they turned fifty minutes of production into ninety minutes of programming. And in a show where shoddy maintenance practices were a big topic, how ironic that duct tape was a big sponsor?



I've got Titanic hopes and they aren't sinking
 
BN747
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 4:39 pm

They talked about an Eastern L-1011 crash where the pilots were not aware the plane was descending from 2000 feet all the way to the ground, even after ATC asked them about it?! I've never heard about that accident before,..

Absolutely true! And it went for a swim into the Everglades! The pilots were completely distracted by a faulty light indicator -- they even did a go around which they were too high and this time they were too low.

The History Channel documentary was great.. I and many people brought into the 'faulty bolt' story.. this is the 1st I've heard of an interior pylon flange being constantly jammed (thus fracturing)because of AA's (and others as a cost/time saving or cutting measure) one-step engine removal technique -- when Douglas strongly urged it be a two-step processs! Just asking anyone about this.. the 1st thing out of their mouths will be 'it was a faulty bolt' or 'bolt problem'.

Great presentation except all the Pan Am 707 shots (glad to see them anyway) which had nothing to do with anything. It was great to see footage of the National and Trans America DC-10s!

BN747

[Edited 2004-05-28 09:48:07]
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 7:13 pm

Like an idiot I taped one hour of the show, thinking "it's a one hour show" at the end of the hour they say, "While most of the investigation was centered on the maintance proceedures of AA at Tulsa, there was another reason the plane crashed." That's about when my tape ended.

Can someone tell me why it rolled after takeoff and the pilots apparently regained control?
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 7:47 pm

Time to go to work. I will look at this later in case noone has replied.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
hz747300
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 7:59 pm

They said it was because the engine cut away the hydraulic systems (primary and backup) when it broke away on take off. That pushed leading edge slat back in and when the crew reduced speed after realizing that there was a problem the left wing did produce as much lift as the right wing causing the aircraft to bank to the left then crash after reaching an altitude of only 300ft and not even travelling a mile.
Keep on truckin'...
 
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tjwgrr
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 9:41 pm

Loss of hydraulic pressure due to separation of pylon which tore through hydraulic lines caused the leading edge slats to retract on the left wing. PIC was FO, and FO had no stick shaker on his side. FO didn't realize until too late that the left wing was stalling which caused an uncontrollable severe roll to the left.

I thought the AA 191 special on the History Channel was quite informative and objective.
Direct KNOBS, maintain 2700' until established on the localizer, cleared ILS runway 26 left approach.
 
mlsrar
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RE: Flight 191

Fri May 28, 2004 10:45 pm

I thought the AA 191 special on the History Channel was quite informative and objective.

Also, well-presented with the CG animations that showed the exact workings of the pylon assembly...a nice insight into the attachment/detechment process, and how the damage was done.

All without incorrect file-footage! (mostly)

I mean, for the right price I’ll fight a lion. - Mike Tyson
 
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American 767
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 1:05 am

When you mention flight 191 on a topic, please be specific about which disaster you are talking about. I figured in this case it's about the DC-10 that crashed in Chicago because that happened just 25 years ago, but 191 is also the flight number of another major disaster: a Delta L-1011 that crashed in Dallas in 1985.
Thanks anyway for the info.

Ben Soriano
Brussels Belgium
Ben Soriano
 
bmacleod
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 2:44 am

Shouldn't the flight number 191 be retired after two major crashes with large fatality numbers? I sure wouldn't fly on a flight numbered 191.
"What good are wings without the courage to fly?" - Atticus
 
sprxflySWA
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 2:50 am

Then don't fly Continental from MIA-IAH-AUS. That is where theirs goes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but at the very end, they showed a trijet heading away from camera in the late evening, and I am almost sure it was an L1011.

Also, when they showed shots from a tower and talking about either ATC or weather at the time, was it not DCA's tower with Potomac and US Capitol seen in background?
 
navairjax
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 2:55 am

Sprxfly,
I didn't notice which tower it was but you are correct that they did show an L1011.
 
BN747
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 3:13 am

That scene was certainly not ORD.

And also a flight nbr is retired only with 'the airline involved' not across the board (all other carriers).


BN747
"Home of the Brave, made by the Slaves..Land of the Free, if you look like me.." T. Jefferson
 
scseay
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 5:52 am

For those that might have thought that this documentary was incorrect, you should read the official NTSB report, which can be found on the net. I read the report a few weeks ago, and was pleased that the History Channel was as accurate as it was. Same goes for the info about Eastern's L-1011 crash....
 
Brick
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 6:19 am

I wonder why United and Continental didn't get their balls busted for the same maintenance proceedure American was doing...

Mark
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
747buff
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 6:29 am

UA and CO probably didn't get their balls busted because unlike AA, their use of the procedure didn't cause a major disaster.
At Eastern, we earn our wings every day!
 
Brick
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 8:20 am

That's my point. UA and CO were doing the same thing, but because AA got bit in the ass first they suffered the half million fine. Could have just as easily happened to UA or CO first, yet they got off...

Mark
A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man...
 
Type-Rated
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 9:46 am

I was just leaving ORD after dropping my parents off for a trip to LAX (on CO)when this accident happened. I was heading south on Mannheim right at about 27L when my brother saw the smoke in the sky. I pulled over and looked and I saw the smoke and could tell that it was something big!
I remember that everyone did home in on "the bolt", but then I remember them later releasing the information on a "money-saving" method of removing the engines from the wing. McDonnell-Douglas warned the airlines that this method is not recommended, but they continued anyway.
I thought this show did a great job of showing how the damage occurred. I learned something from that. I also didn't know about the single stick shaker system.
The full NTSB report has been archived due to age, but here is the an "Official" NTSB breif of this accident:

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=36919&key=0#

Other factors not mentioned:
The DC-10 only had a single flap position indicator, and the sensor for this was on the right wing. The show didn't mention that when the engine tore away it not only took part of the slats, but a section of the flaps as well. In the CVR recording it was discovered that the crew looked at the flap setting for correctness and since the flaps/slats on the right wing were fine, they had an abnormal situation with which McD never thought would happen. They never knew what kind of condition the left wing was in.

Also they didn't mention the fact that Lindsey Wagner(Bionic Woman) and her mother were initially on that plane, but they got off after she said "Something didn't feel right" and they deplaned at the gate. I think the Chicago newspaper had a side bar about that. She put up quite a ruckuss to get off the flight. She took a later one.

When did Peter Greenburg go from being a "Travel Editor" to a "Investigative Journalist"? Wasn't he one of the producers of this show? I remember hmo from Prodigy years and years ago where he was just a member!

Fly North Central Airlines..The route of the Northliners!
 
b752fanatic
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 10:56 am

What about the Report that an investigator for AA did for an important department in AA? AA decided to trash it, and still nobody knows the content of that Report.

AA did a tremendous cover up at that time.
"Truth is more of a stranger than fiction." Mark Twain
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: Flight 191

Sat May 29, 2004 11:15 pm

First of all, the tower shot was of DCA.

Secondly, one ofthe experts on there alluded to the fact that the MD-80 series was a failure. When I checked boeing.com, it lists 1191 MD-80s being built, so I would call this a success for MDC instad of a failure.

Other than that, the information was correct as far as I could tell.