a380900
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A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sat May 29, 2004 3:20 pm

I think that the A380 and the 7E7 cost about the same to develop. Roughly $10 billion. Shouldn't there be a premium in cost for the A380 (bigger buildings, size never done before...).

If the investment is similar, why wouldn't the price be similar? I recognize that there are much more "raw material" in the A380 but does that justify twice the tag price of a 7E7 if the investments are comparable?
 
Sinlock
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sat May 29, 2004 4:22 pm

1. The 7E7 is aimed at a market that has a larger demand (200-300) so the unit cost will be lower as more aircraft will be built.

2. The A380 has two more engines that add around an extra $40M to the cost. (A GE-90 is around $18M)

3. The Boeing is aiming a (per pound) production cost 35% less than the 777-200, this is around $240.00 a pound at MGW. 7E7 will be on a moving assembly line from the start.

4. Airbus has been able to keep the amount of new tech that needs to be created to a minimum. The major new techs are Glare and Friction Stir Welding.
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sat May 29, 2004 4:24 pm

Everything being equal, an aircraft the size of the 7E7 will sell many more frames than an aircraft the size of the A380. So while the 7E7 will sell for less than the A380, more will be sold. As long as things go somewhat to plan, the investment will pay off for both companies.

V/F
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Alessandro
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sat May 29, 2004 5:02 pm

So has developement cost ever been on target for an new airplane design(not talking stretching like B742 to B744)?

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
keesje
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sat May 29, 2004 5:33 pm

other new technology on A380:

- An A380 innovation is the open Integrated Modular Avionics (IMA) concept, which will help to reduce support costs and make upgrades easier. Applicable to multiple aircraft functions, IMA includes elements developed by Rockwell Collins (high-speed bus switches), Thales Avionics (IMA modules) and internal Airbus supplier EYY (IMA modules).

-The Honeywell-developed surveillance system also represents a leap in capability and design.

- The avionics systems are built on large computing resources and a two-way, deterministic, 100-megabit/sec backbone. This avionics full-duplex (AFDX) switched Ethernet bus will move massive volumes of data, enabling the manipulation of large databases to drive the high-resolution, real-time Thales displays. Yet there is still margin for growth, to incorporate new features and functions.

- The cockpit display system (CDS) has also been upgraded, it will feature eight 6-by-8-inch liquid crystal displays (LCDs), rather than six 6-by-6-inch displays. These comprise two primary flight displays (PFDs), two navigation displays, one engine parameter display, one system display and two multifunction displays (MFDs). All the displays are identical, interchangeable and potentially interactive.

- New is the vertical position/weather display, in the lower portion of the navigation display. It presents a vertical profile of the flight path, with altitude on the vertical axis and distance on the horizontal axis. Terrain information provided by the terrain awareness warning system (TAWS) database is painted in brown along the bottom, the flight path is projected in green, and the aircraft icon is drawn in yellow.

New generation FMS. The interaction with the FMS system through the navigation screen. Integral to this change is the Thales-designed KCCU, which includes a keyboard with dedicated FMS and other function keys and a QWERTY pad, plus a hand rest with a trackball for moving the cursor on the MFD and a mouse button for clicking the cursor. The KCCU also features left and right arrow keys to move the cursor from screen to screen, mainly between the nav screen, the MFD and the system display containing the ATC mailbox.

The pilot will be able to interact with the FMS through the navigation screen to modify waypoints, viewing the temporary (and permanent) flight plans. The navigation display will feature menus of choices, allowing pilots to delete a waypoint or insert a hold, for example, rather than interact with lists of data on an MCDU.

- just like 747 all structurally parts dimensioned for loads never experiences before

- a new hydraulic system, the A380's hydraulic systems will have an increased pressure of 5,000 pounds per square inch (psi), as opposed to the traditional 3,000 psi.T his increase in pressure allows the necessary power to be transmitted with smaller piping and hydraulic components

- new materials such as Glare and carbon fibre reinforced plastics (CFRP) thermoplastics and advanced aluminium alloys. An estimated 40 per cent of the aircraft's structure and components will thus be manufactured from the latest generation of carbon composites and advanced metallic materials, which, besides being lighter than traditional materials, offer significant advantages in terms of operational reliability, maintainability and ease of repair.

- a dual architecture for the flight control system has been implemented, featuring four independent primary flight control systems with two different configurations. Two of these systems use a conventional hydraulic actuation system whereas the other two feature local electro-hydraulic actuators for the control surfaces. The aircraft can be controlled using any one of these four systems

-2 Innovative dual airco packs iso the normal 4.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sat May 29, 2004 11:17 pm

New is the vertical position/weather display, in the lower portion of the navigation display.

This is incorperated ont the 737NG as well
http://www.boeing.com/commercial/737family/pf/pf_tech1.html

So has developement cost ever been on target for an new airplane design

Almost impossible to say. Boeing hasn't peeped on the 777 development nor has Airbus on any of its major projects.
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sat May 29, 2004 11:21 pm

The A380 is not only more expensive to produce because of more materials needed and fewer possible airfame sales, but also because each plane requires more labor to build than the 7E7 most likely will. For most companies labor is the leading expense by far.
 
gigneil
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sun May 30, 2004 12:52 am

Airbus also had to develop a fair bit of CFRP technology that they didn't have before.

All things told, Boeing is also spreading the risk to a larger number of partners than Airbus is for the 380, and the pieces are bigger and more expensive (like the wing).

N
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sun May 30, 2004 9:46 am

If I understand correctly, much or most of the development cost is actually inventory for work in progress.

Something like this:
- 30 airframes worth of parts n pieces
- at 200M per each
- that is $6billion

These are included since that is how much B or A must spend with subcontractors until they start getting cash from payments (I've oversimplified down payments, but you get the general picture).

For actual development costs, I suggest that this is 3,000 people for 5 years. That makes 15,000 man-years, at, say, $100,000 per person/yr (global average) that makes $1.5billion.

And then there is testing, test materials, test parts, etc, double that for the labour coast above for another $1 to $2 billion, which is my SWAG.

So roughly, I estimate development is 25% labour, 25% materials and testing, and 50% work in progress. I would think the labour and materials and testing would be about the same for the A380 and 7e7, and the key differentiator would be the work-in-progress figures, which depend on how quickly they are made, and the cost to source sub-components and manufacture.




 
cloudy
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sun May 30, 2004 10:20 am

The question was about total development cost, not unit costs. It is a good question.

My guess would be that the 7E7's total development costs meets the A380's, despite the A380's larger size, because....

1. Boeing is developing two wings - one for the short range version and one for the long range version. Many fusalage structures will be different as well. Some analysts say it comes close to doing two programs at once. The A380 has only one wing, and there will not be a specially built short range version.

2. The 7E7 will have to more new ground than the A380 - by going for a large efficiency advantage, Boeing has set a high and hard target for its R&D effort.

3. A larger aircraft is more difficult and expensive to develop, even if you look at total costs rather than unit costs. However, there are a lot of fixed costs in aircraft development - especially for a commercial jet. There is a rather large minimum ammount that must be spent regardless of the aircraft's size.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: A380 - 7E7 Same Investments?

Sun May 30, 2004 1:53 pm

1. Boeing is developing two wings - one for the short range version and one for the long range version. Many fusalage structures will be different as well. Some analysts say it comes close to doing two programs at once. The A380 has only one wing, and there will not be a specially built short range version.

That assumption is a little ambigious IMO. When you think about it, the 7E7-3 and 7E7-8/9 concept is not all that different from the A330/A340 concept. You have a nearly common fuselage and nearly common wing, configured for two different flight profiles.

Remember that two wing profiles are different than two unique wings. In the end, the only difference could be the winglet (shorthaul) versus wingtip (longhaul). I was under the impression the -3 and -8/9 would share the same wing structure with a possible tweak in leading edge profile and the winglet/wingtip configuration.

2. The 7E7 will have to more new ground than the A380 - by going for a large efficiency advantage, Boeing has set a high and hard target for its R&D effort.

That is definitly true.

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