Leon8828
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7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 12:01 pm

I knew it, Boeing was going to resort to using the same old boring vertical fin on the 7E7. What happened to the real cool dolphin fin?

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/7e7/photo_1.html
 
MSYtristar
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 12:03 pm

That's an old rendering of the 7E7. No worries, as far as I know, shark fin tail is still a go.


Steve/MSY
 
frontiers4ever
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 12:07 pm

As MSYtristar stated it is an old drawing it came out when the 7E7 was first annouced.

-Fronters4ever
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JonnyJon11
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 12:08 pm

So do you think it will stay the 7E7 or will become the 787. Just a thought to add to this.
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 12:12 pm

~"That's an old rendering of the 7E7. No worries, as far as I know, shark fin tail is still a go. "~

Wow. Thanks for clearing that up.. I was a bit confused there for a second.. The 7E7 looks like a 763 with cooler wings??  Big grin
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 12:20 pm

It has served so well for so long. Maybe there is nothing wrong with it.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Boeing4ever
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 12:37 pm

EDIT: The post I was referring to has been deleted.

BTW, Leon, that's the first rendering of 7E7, BEFORE the shark-tail fin. You really should do your homework if you want to be taken seriously here. Boy, tonight's the night where all the teenage-armchair-aeronautical-engineers come out.  Insane

B4e-Forever New Frontiers

[Edited 2004-05-31 05:55:54]
 
757KSLC
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 1:01 pm

Yea, the date on that picture in January 2003, 16+ months ago.
 
cancidas
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 1:03 pm

...teenage-armchair-aeronautical-engineers...

as apposed to every other night where it's battle of the teenage-armchair-airline-ceos?
"...cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home."
 
BWIA 772
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 1:15 pm

One would have thought that the other pics which are more recent than the one highlight would have been a big clue. Not to mention that when the ANA announced their order that the press release photo was the 7e7 with the shark fin in ANA livery.
Eagles Soar!
 
fspilot747
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 1:18 pm

That's how it should be. This whole "futuristic design" crap is ridiculous, but who knows it might actually be efficient.

If Boeing really wants that playstation videogame look, fine. But I just hope it's worth it.

This "shark fin" and weird cockpit windows look just seems like a joke. But I'm no engineer or anything, I could be totally off.
 
highliner2
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 2:01 pm

Actually if you check out the latest photos of the windtunnel testing the 7E7 has the "old-boring" tailfin. As much as I think the whole sharkfin look might be appealing, Boeing has a very fine aerodynamic department and their going to do whatever if takes to make that thing sail through the air as smooth as possible, if that means the boring tail fin, well, oh well.
Go Cubs!
 
dl021
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 2:15 pm

Number one...Leons profile says he is not a teenager, he appears to be a thirty-something lawyer who is a licensed helo pilot and a web site. Even if he was a teenager, at least he has a constructive hobby.

Number two A press release recently said that Boeing is not going to use the "shark fin tail" depicted in early renderings. As soon as I find the article again I will post it.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
airxliban
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 3:20 pm

the design of the 7E7 has not been finalized yet...things could still change. we won't know for sure until they release the final design.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
highliner2
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 5:17 pm

I thought I'd heard some press release/article concerning the tail being redone, please post that article when you can, I'm interested to read it.
Go Cubs!
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 5:35 pm

Another off topic So do you think it will stay the 7E7 or will become the 787

I like the quote when they announced they would build the 7E7. Something along the lines that the E stood for Everett. I think it should stay, I hate the Dreamliner name, but 7E7 is unique.
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Ruscoe
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 6:15 pm

This is a partial extract from an article in the Seattle Post-Intelligencer:
"Cogan said the nose of the 7E7 is pretty much fixed. But more design work is needed on the tail fin, he said.

The goal, he said, is to get as close as possible to the distinctive look that the aviation world now knows as the 7E7.

Boeing is now in the second of four rounds of wind-tunnel testing for the 7E7 program at this site and three other locations around the world: a low-speed wind tunnel at the University of Washington, a NASA facility in Mountain View, Calif., and the QinetiQ low-speed wind tunnel in Farnborough, England."

Ruscoe
 
lehpron
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 8:25 pm

Blackbird1331: >> "It has served so well for so long. Maybe there is nothing wrong with it." <<

In engineering, apart from creating a new airplane from scratch (as is somewhat apparent with 7E7), you look to the existing parts of the plane for tweeking efficiency out of them as long as the change (benefit) is worth the immediate costs. The idea of "if it aint broke don't fix it" does not apply here. Nobody changes anything for the hell of it, no ideas come out of people's butts, in other words. Big grin

I've noticed in recent years that there has been the need to trade off development costs and operational costs back and forth -- which explains the Space Shuttle pretty well and just about anything NASA spits out...  Insane If Boeing ends up going this route they'll screw themselves over, I think if the point of the project is lowering ops costs then they will have to invest heavily on development. That translates into higher break-even unit sales.

They have the brand down, will thay have the quality?

[Edited 2004-05-31 13:27:19]
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Blackbird1331
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 8:58 pm

Was just thinking in terms of aerodynamics and physics reaching their pinnacle. If you could build the ultimate supersonic airliner but had to use this particular tail, would you do it? I think so. Most of us have been taught to think outside the box but I guess sometimes we have stay inside.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
oerk
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 11:20 pm

Damnit....

When I read the topic... "7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin" I breathed a huge sigh of relief... to be done with the atrocity otherwise known as the "shark fin tail".

Guess I am going to have to wait longer. Such a horrid design.
And yes, I'm not even talking about efficiencies etc... im just concerning myself with looks at the moment... so dont bother pointing this out.
 
oerk
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Mon May 31, 2004 11:24 pm

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2004/photorelease/q2/040526g.jpg

Picture dated May 26, 2004.... no shark fin!

Thank you Boeing.
 
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EA CO AS
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:16 am

Picture dated May 26, 2004.... no shark fin!

Perhaps, but they're still tweaking the design. Besides, if you actually take that wind-tunnel model as gospel of what the final product will look like, there won't be a horizontal stabilizer either.  Insane

Everyone just breathe easy, k?  Big grin
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DfwRevolution
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:31 am

Design freeze is probably 7-8 months away, then we will know for sure. I agree with EACOAS, just breathe easy...
 
luisca
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:32 am

This has notting to do with thinking outside the box, in the end, The most efficient design will go, and then only if the cost of making it doesnt exceed the savings that will come.
Its very basic economycs.
I am sure that boeing has made a very studied decission and has taken into consideration all factors before deciding against the shark tail design

Is it just me or does that tail resemble a lot to the 777 tail (could it be possible to use the same tail?) anyone that can answer that i would appreciate it.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:56 am

could it be possible to use the same tail

Nooo....

The 7E7-3/8 are both about 2/3-rds the size of a 772 and about half the size of the 773. They are two very different airplanes in terms of size, flight profile, ect; making it virtually impossible (or rather, highly improbable) that they will share the same tail. Hope that answers your question  Smile
 
luisca
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:11 am

Yes but i read that in the A318 the tail is actually Bigger than the tail in the A320, also, they probably are using the same tail design at least

Will it be made in Australia like the one on the 777?
If it ain't Boeing (or Embraer ;-)) I ain't Going!
 
miamix707
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:50 am



the A318 does have a taller fin, not sure why the A319 didn't need one. I think the A319 would actually be a better looking aircraft with a longer fin.
 
SpeedbirdHeavy
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:13 am

I knew it, Boeing was going to resort to using the same old boring vertical fin on the 7E7. What happened to the real cool dolphin fin?

People in this forum never cease to amaze me. Like aircraft manufacturers actually design planes so that people will think they're cool.

Whatever design Boeing uses for the vertical fin, I'm thinking it will be the most aerodynamic. Proper aerodynamics will also lead to better economic performance.

You see, airlines tend to purchase planes that actually get off the ground. A "boring" vertical fin probably is an integral part of that process. Also, a cost effective aircraft is what most airlines think is "cool."
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gigneil
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:20 am



the A318 does have a taller fin, not sure why the A319 didn't need one. I think the A319 would actually be a better looking aircraft with a longer fin.


The 319 just did not need one.

The 318 does because its fuselage is much shorter.

N
 
m404
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:38 am

The 318 need the extra height (control) for the same reason the B747sp did.

Less sarcasm and more thought equal better understanding
 
nantoine
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:47 am

Actually, SpeedbirdHeavy, Boeing HAS said that they were considering making the 7E7 "look cool" so it would be different and recognizable:

"Subtle touches, however, can be added to produce a more unique shape without affecting the performance of the airplane. Engineers are studying these touches for consideration on the new 7E7."

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2003/q2/nr_030505h.html

Boeing is not saying that the shark-shape of the aircraft is better aerodynamically. It's just saying that it won't hurt the performance of the airplane, and at the same time will make it look "unique". Esthetics as an objective? Why not!

The 747 is one of the most easily recognizable aircraft in the world -- a fact that has not been lost on Boeing.

Cheers
 
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solnabo
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:11 am

The 7E7 gonna look like a shrinked 777  Laugh out loud

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MD-90
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 5:24 am

You really should do your homework if you want to be taken seriously here.

LMAO! I'm sorry, that's just too funny.


Like aircraft manufacturers actually design planes so that people will think they're cool.

Actually, they do. A good example would be Cessna changing the tails of their single engine aircraft to the swept back design. It reduced rudder authority, but it did look "cool". Don't forget that aircraft manufacturers have marketing departments that want things to look cool.
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:04 am

Picture dated May 26, 2004.... no shark fin!

Thank you Boeing.


This was debated a week ago and i think the conclusion was that they looked to be only testing the nose and wing sections. They don't even have a horizontal stabilizer... does that mean that since this wind tunnel dummy doesn't have it, the final project wont?  Insane

I think they really do want to design this to intrigue the public, just as their designing the performance to intrigue the airlines.
 
Vorticity
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:24 am

Never look at a single wind tunnel test model and assume any decisions have been made about the final design. It depends on what their methods in testing are, if they have decided on the vertical stabilizer, or if they are using it as a constant through testing other parts for the aircraft.

There are probably a lot of design concepts that have floated around the Boeing offices for the 7E7, many the public will never see. Over the next few months, the design will finalize, and we'll see what it ends up like.

The vertical stabilizer will probably be designed for aerodynamics primarily, but if they get the chance to make it look distinctive, you can bet they will.
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flyboy36y
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:37 am

The 7E7 looks like a 763 with cooler wings??

No, that's the 764....
 
lehpron
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:50 am

Each and evey plane designed follows a criteria, a baseline (usually rooted in tradition or older planes), it's where the modern tailfin came from. Like I said, most companies thesedays tweek, there is no need to jump, it is a form of true technological evolution. The shark tail is nothing big, to me at least. If that kind of tailfin turns out to be of particular use to another concept, then yes of course throw it in. But to what concept, what parameter? This is what criteria means. For all the possible designs considered worth investigating, which means not ALL possible designs are considered; if plotted, you'd get a trend (the trend occurs by applying the same rules to a somewhat similar shape) -- that being the approximate final.

Change the shape more than slighty and you actually have a different shape and possibly (if the road had not been take before) a heck of a lot of work to do -- hence costly.

>> "Most of us have been taught to think outside the box but I guess sometimes we have stay inside." <<

You really believe that huh? While I believe we are told to try to think outside the box, no one knows what that means because we are all still in the box. Objectivity gets difficult when you're in it. Say your best friend was interested in your ex-girlfriend as soon as you guys break up, can you honestly hold a straight face and give an honest answer?

Some of us are in actuality, as someone stated in another forum, thinking inside a bigger box.

I know I am outside the box to a point, but I can't explain it; technically, you'd have to think about everything you know about something and make it dilute to the point where there are no simple stories. The idea of basic economics isn't and in reality it is a side character in the game of the market and everyone plays a part. Choice really has the biggest part, it's just so vast and hard to track.  Sad
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:16 am

Thinking outside the box means to defy conventional thinking and go with your instincts, intuition and even, gut feelings. In this example, if I feel this is the tail design to use, even though all of you tell me not to, I use it anyway. When I become president of Boeing next week I'll invite all of you over for tea.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Vorticity
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:26 am

Thinking outside the box means to think in new or different ways than what was done before. When someone says, "we've always done it this way", you you say, "but we could do it a different way, it might be better." Thinking outside the box means considering new options, exploring them. That doesn't mean every idea from outside the box will be used though. A new idea must be thoroughly researched, designed and tested to make it through to the final design.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
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RayChuang
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:05 pm

I think Boeing may shelve the idea of a vertical tail fin that looks like a shark fin for this reason: avoiding the potential for the plane to "Dutch roll," which means the plane will start to roll when the plane has a yawing (left-right) movement.

As some of you know, the early 707's had a shorter vertical tail than later 707's. Unfortunately, this led to the plane being quite sensitive to Dutch roll, and a number of early 707's crashed due to this instability. That's why the British Civil Aviation Authority (CAA) required Boeing to build a taller vertical tail for the 707-420's sold to BOAC, a change that was subsequently incorporated into new-build 707's and retrofitted to earlier production 707's.

It appears that the "shark fin" vertical tail on the 7E7 artist's conceptions could result in the 7E7 being sensitive to Dutch roll even with the application of fly-by-wire systems.
 
Spike
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:14 pm

Thinking outside of the box is one of thse crappy expresions that are used by people so obviously stuck inside a box that they've lost the plot.
 
Vorticity
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:48 pm

Thinking outside of the box is one of these crappy expressions that are used by people so obviously stuck inside a box that they've lost the plot.

Yes, it's right up there with a Paradigm Shift in the list of meaningless statements. The concept of innovation isn't meaningless though. In engineering, it can be extremely frustrating to work under older people who are stuck in their ways.

I'm hoping that the final design includes the vertical stabilizer that has the best aerodynamic characteristics, whether it is a traditional looking one, or the 'shark fin' or something that looks ridiculous. Boeing has smart engineers though, I'm confident it will be a solid design  Smile
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:52 pm

Maybe if it ends up looking more traditional, they can just paint every one to LOOK like a shark fin....  Big grin
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:20 pm

Thinking outside the box lead to research in aircraft without tails.
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lehpron
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:10 am

What exact is the general definition of an 'aircraft without tails'? There are three major parts there, eliminating one makes one new plane, all means six; all of which have been tried.

In any case, the fact is that all of those ideas came from one source in time, military funding, and all designs made were restricted to that. Like the only reason a non-boom plane doesn't exists in the military inventory (yes it doesn't, including blackprojects) is because they had not thought it was possible or worth, so why waste money? Just get the objective and make money, that's the point of any business.

In the commerical industry there is no out-of-box thinking, it has and is continually being referenced to entrprenuership, which is a bad word cuz those people see failure as an experience while investors see it as your only chance. You can't play in this market, the military may give you a blank check, but not here. You would need serious backing and way before that, you need to prove yourself to others that you can do it. It's an uphill battle for out-of-box thinking in this industry.

To me, Boeing's happy fin or nose is not out-of-box. If I were in this industry, then there aren't many shapes or ideas left for Boeing or Airbus or anyone, having been in the box for so long, the BWB and SC would have been the only contenders of that outside thought expression. All we can do in this specific subsonic industry is tweak: increase range, efficiency, size by use, etc. Nothing else. Everyone in here is going to be arguing with the younger generation about this fact of things getting boring.

Moreover, all of the current forecasts are that this tweaking will only go so far and soon (20-30 years) the demand WILL overtake the supply (technologially wise) = gridlock. We need something else by then and in order for that to happen we need to commit serious R&D within the next 5-10 years for whatever it is to come out by 2025.
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
AeroOzzie
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Wed Jun 02, 2004 8:38 pm

The shark-fin to me seems like a marketing thing. The prime reason that aircraft have had the current "look" about them is because it works - and works well, and until further LARGE advances can be made in engine technology, materials etc., they will remain the way they have since the 707.

I'm sure Boeing would like to make a fancy, good looking fin, and kudos to them if they can do it whilst maintaining (or increasing) efficiency and cost-effectiveness over a "current" style fin, but from an aerodynamic perspective, a normal fin will work just as well. The more aerodynamic wing/fuselage and fin/fuselage fairings at least look good as well as being able to reduce the drag around these high drag areas.

AeroOzzie
 
airmale
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:09 am

Aircraft in the image is more of a cross between the 777 and 764, its not the 7E7 design which came out much later.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:20 am

You would need serious backing and way before that, you need to prove yourself to others that you can do it. It's an uphill battle for out-of-box thinking in this industry.

Think of it another way. For the last three decades or so, the Boeing 747 has been the icon of commercial jet travel. If there is one airplane that the general public can recognize, it is the 747. But in a few years, the 747 image will be dwarfed by the A380. I have a hard time believing the A380 will achieve the image of the 747 but Boeing will no longer have the class leading appearance.

The 7E7 styling is at least some way to combat this. Face it, you will be able to differentiate a 7E7 from a 777 or A330 if the current styling make it to market. The shark-fin tail is a great way to differentiate Boeing's product while, possibly, being performance neutral.

Aircraft in the image is more of a cross between the 777 and 764, its not the 7E7 design which came out much later.

Boeing first mentioned the 7E7 development in December of 2002. The first image, the one that looks like a 777/764 cross, was released in January 2003. The distinctive styling concept was released in May 2003.
 
7e72004
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:04 am

How long will it be before we see the actual "final" design of the 7E7??
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
AvObserver
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RE: 7E7 Same Old Boring Tail Fin

Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:31 am

"The 7E7 gonna look like a shrinked 777"  Laugh out loud

Not likely but if it did, so what? As with the A380, we're really concerned about performance, not looks. And if Boeing must shuck the cool-looking shark tail from the promotional renderings, again, so what. RayChuang has a good point, if that design could conceivably induce 'dutch-roll', by all means, dump it. It doesn't really mean a thing if it comes out looking a bit different than promised, as long as the performance promised remains. I'd be fine with it looking like the boring 764 clone we saw in the initial artwork as long as it delivers on what's been promised. If they can 'style' it without affecting those claimed economics, fine. But if not, what's so bad about a 764 clone or a 'shrinked' 777, anyway?