B747-437B
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Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:45 am

Informal discussions on Monday between Praful Patel, the new Minister of Civil Aviation and top Air India officials have led to an unofficial request for Air India to "re-evaluate" their choice of Airbus 340-300 aircraft for the airlines' fleet evaluation plan.

The airline is expected to complete the review of current proposals from both Boeing and Airbus including updated pricing, financing and delivery schedules within the next few weeks and revert to the ministry if any changes in market conditions have been identified. The option to the Airbus 340-300 would be the Boeing 777 family of products.

Further details will be provided as they become known.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
brons2
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:20 am

As much as I would like to see the 777 win this order....that's nuts. How many times and for how long are they going to fight over this order? Why don't they just put it to a nationwide referendum or something....lol.

At this rate, neither plane will ever be ordered.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
9V-SVA
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:23 am

And that will take another what, seven years? By then the B777 and A340 would be almost obsolete!

9V-SVA
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Trvlr
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:23 am

Slightly off-topic question--what political party does Praful Patel belong to?

Aaron G.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:27 am

Prafull Patel would do better to concentrate on improving the airport infrastructure that try to meddle in airline decision making process.

If this is really true and not one of Seans "experiments" then i must say it is a sad day for Indian aviation!!

-Roy
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:42 am

I just had to crosscheck this shocker. I can confirm that Mr.Prafull Patel has NOT, repeat NOT said that the A340-300 deal would be reexamined. All that he has said is that the reasons for delay in the deal would be examined.

Heres what he said:

“We are going through the proposals of both IA and A-I. I must see what had happened (on their proposals). "

"Under no circumstances will we allow any more delays in fleet acquisition," Patel said.



Patel is said to be close to some Boeing officials like Dinesh Keskar. But it is unlikely that he will be able to swing such a deal around at this stage without being forced to tender his resignation! Remember the controversy that was caused when IC changed its decision overnight to go from 757's to A320's? Would Prafull Patel now stick his neck out to overturn a decision that the airline had taken?

-Roy
 
JAL777
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:52 am

And this is why ladies and gentlemen, India isn't as developed as it should be. Its not that the people aren't smart enough, but the shear amount of bureaucracy makes the US look like anarchy. Unbelievable.
 
9v-svc
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:43 pm

As usual the anti-airbus bashers will always be around.

Well, no wonder they are taking so long to comfirm this deal. By the way, their order for the 738s are comfirmed right ?
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:50 pm

A new government, a new bunch of crooks.

What did you expect?

By now, someone, somewhere in the new GOI is establishing a commission to investigate the Airbus-NDA deal. More $$$ will trade hands between the large aircraft manufacturers and the new government.

As usual, nothing will come of any of this.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:57 pm

I can confirm that Mr.Prafull Patel has NOT, repeat NOT said that the A340-300 deal would be reexamined

Nobody said he had said that. I simply said that AI officials were unofficially requested to re-examine the deal and get back to him. Its a good thing as far as I can tell - he simply wants to make sure that the Airbus was AI's legitimate best selection and not forced on them by any of his predecessors. This isn't a negative thing - its simply a re-evaluation.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
dl021
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:10 pm

Is anyone surprised by this? How long did it take India to complete the deal for Hawk Trainers they truly need?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AF-A319
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:15 pm

Ahhh, politics and busines...! Will it stop sometime?
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:18 pm

BTW Roy, Patel's exact comments to the media were as follows :

"We are going through the proposals of both IC and AI. I must see what had happened before arriving at any decision in 2004. I want both the airlines to take a long term view and re-examine their proposals. If their decisions are right let them go ahead with it. My main obective is to strengthen both the airlines."

Don't put the cart before the horse and immediately assume that the order will be overturned. By all accounts, the decision to pick the A340 was a legitimate one influenced by the significantly cheaper acquisition and operating costs so there is no reason to assume there will be any change unless Boeing wants to chop some serious $ off their pricetag.

My info came from AI sources who were putting the wheels into motion for this "re-evaluation". I hadn't even read Patel's comments until I ran a google search a few minutes ago but they seem to back up what both of us have found out.

[Edited 2004-06-01 06:22:01]
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
mrniji
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 7:05 pm

[Patel:]I want both the airlines to take a long term view and re-examine their proposals. If their decisions are right let them go ahead with it. My main obective is to strengthen both the airlines."

Man, this will be a never-ending story. Haven't they already spent long enough to re-evaluate?? And now again?? If he wants to handle in their interest he should just let them go without taking an initiative.

Or is Boeing again exerting pressure and trying to reverse AI's legitimate and free decision?? C'mon Boeing, the battle is lost, at least we are ordering some 738s for sympathy... This Dinesh Keskar seems to be a weird person... They will never let loose if they can make money, even if they harm others.

I personally don't really care any more which a/c is ordered (since I think that all are great a/c), but only care that an order is placed asap!


I hope they stay now with the choice and don't start a new process again. Within the re-evaluation, are they also considering 'upgrading' the order to the A345 (from the 343)?
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 8:46 pm

Prafull Patel may want another peek into the files. But I draw comfort from his statement that the acquisition process will not be further delayed.

So i dont really expect a switch from the original choice in the long range component of the AI order.

-Roy
 
Skyguy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:35 pm

Folks,
I think Praful Patel's re-examination makes sense provided that it really is that and not another delay inducing paper chase.

I guess his comments were aimed with objective of ensuring exactly what Sean said, that is the deal was done with adequate due diligence and there was no undue political pressure to accept the Airbus contract if commercial/technical evaluation suggested that in fact Boeings offer was better. If that was the case then this will be apparent soon.

Hopefully this will not take long and they will go ahead with the deal asap.
"Those who talk, do not know, and those who know, do not talk."
 
flyhigh@tom
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:54 am

Oh God!!!!
Why can we just get the planes for a change? If the re-evaluation gets going then it will be again like the Hawk trainers...how many young IAF pilots have already lost their lives in Mig 21s et all...hmm now even Jaguars are falling out of the sky :-(

AI badly needs new long range a/cs ..why the heck cant we just buy them? I hope Mr. Patel actually means like what many here have understood...just speedy acquisition with long term needs in mind.

Cheers
Tom.

 
jaysit
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:58 am

Whats the used A343 market like?

Are any carriers looking to dump them, or put them on lease?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
donder10
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:02 am

Whats the used A343 market like?

Are any carriers looking to dump them, or put them on lease?

Maybe a few of the ex SQ ones still floating around.Gulf Air picked up 2 I think not too long ago.
 
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Richard28
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:05 am

VS will have some for sale soon won't they?
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:05 pm

Further to this, Boeing has allegedly offered an additional discount of Rs.7 billion (US$ 150 million) if Indian Airlines would be willing to change their planned order for 43 Airbus 320 family aircraft to Boeing products instead.

http://www.financialexpress.com/fe_full_story.php?content_id=60451

Boeing is currently working on a discount package on the Boeing 777s for Air India. Rumor is that they will chop approximately 30% off of the up-front costs, but contingent on Air India opting for additional leased Boeing 747-400s on an interim basis until delivery slots for the Boeing 777s become available.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
The777Man
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:10 am

Good news! Hopefully AI will come to their senses and order 777s! From what I can remember, it was recommended by the technical commitee.

The777Man
Boeing 777s flown: UA, TG, KE, BA, CX, NH, JD, JL, CZ, SQ, EK, NG, CO, AF, SV, KU, DL, AA, MH, OZ, CA, MS, SU, LY, RG, PE, AZ, KL, VN, PK, EY, NZ, AM, BR, AC, DT, UU, OS, AI, 9W, KQ, QR, VA, JJ, ET, TK, PR, BG, T5, CI, MU and LX.. Further to fly.. LH 777
 
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RayChuang
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:23 am

In my opinion, the A340-300 is too small a plane for AI's long distance routes. People are forgetting that India has a very large population (over 1,000 million people estimated as of 2003!) and there is just from sheer numbers enough people in the country to fly larger planes. Why do you think both SQ and EK has such a huge presence flying in and out of India?

AI--if it wants to stay with the A340 series--should seriously consider converting their A343 orders to the A340-600HGW when that becomes available in 2006.
 
airtran737
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:27 am

Hopefully they change their minds and go with the Boeing order. While their at it, maybe they could work on that livery of theirs too.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
jaysit
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:33 am

"People are forgetting that India has a very large population (over 1,000 million people estimated as of 2003!)"

Yes, but about 95% of them can barely afford to take the bus, much less than fly an airplane.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:57 am

RayChuang

If you knew anything about the sub continent you would not have made such a statement.

I hope that what every aircraft they do get that they change the current livery to me it is so drab. Wouldnt it be nice for AI to become a the third launch customer of the 7e7.
Eagles Soar!
 
mrniji
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:07 am

Good news! Hopefully AI will come to their senses and order 777s

Why come to their senses?? Do you think all the A343 customors were out of senses when they bought their planes?

The best for AI is to proceed soon, no matter which type they order (I love both), may the better bidder win (which apparently was Airbus). Hopefully IC doesn't change since they aleadt have a considerable number of A320 in their fleet
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Leskova
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:18 am

Ah... yet another "never ending story"...

Some of us around here might remember that cute thread last year at the time when AI announced the A340/B737 decision...

Let's just wait and see if this - as I hope - really only turns out to be the re-evaluation if the decision was made correctly (however one defines "correctly").

AI and IC - or ANY other airline for that much - really should be left alone to make decisions such as this one... there are several examples of state owned airlines that cost the state money (not saying that AI/IC are costing money - I really don't know if they are profitable or not) - but as soon as they are left to make their own decisions (even though they are still state owned), they turn into profitable enterprises... Lufthansa before the privatisation comes to mind as one of those...

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
mrniji
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:25 am

not saying that AI/IC are costing money - I really don't know if they are profitable or not

AI is a profitable PSU, IC not.

Yes Frank, most of us hope that AI and IC get a lot more autonomy. I don not think that AI has to be privatized (since it is profitable), but a whole lot of autonomy is indeed desirable, out of these bureaucratic decision processes
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:50 am

Do you think all the A343 customors were out of senses when they bought their planes?

Sh'yeah... that's putting it lightly  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
mrniji
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:52 am

ConcordeBoy, you didn't disappoint me! I was waiting for you, and you took less of 25 min to reply  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:04 am


Do you think all the A343 customors were out of senses when they bought their planes?


The fact is very few new customers bought the 343 after the 772IGW/ER entered into service in 1997. On the top of my head, I can think of SAS, Lan Chile, China Airlines, Swiss, SAA, Air Tahiti Nui, and Air India if they finally choose the sign the contract. If I'm not mistaken, there are only 10 more 343s on the order book, not including Air India's 10.

 
mrniji
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:06 am

If I'm not mistaken, there are only 10 more 343s on the order book, not including Air India's 10.

No wonder, since the NG -5/600 is already on the market
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:20 am

EK, already a 772ER operator, decided to lease the A343.....

....but only because they were immediately available, in contrast to other RR-powered 772s.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:24 am

The 345 and 346 are meant for slightly different market. The 772LR and 773ER haven't made the 772ER obsolete.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:29 am

ConcordeBoy:

I meant to say new customers ordered new 343s directly from Airbus. That's why I didn't include EK. There might be a few others like EK.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:41 am

I know... just thought I'd add it.

EK was just the culmination of the famous SQ-F.U.  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:57 am

Out of curiousity...

...the f^ck are you talking about?  Confused Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ORDagent
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:19 am

The only reason AI was asked to reevaluate the situation was to get B and A to fall over themselves with new discounts!
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:03 pm

Boeing has never been known to be a good loser. Whenever it loses an order it picks up a whine about corruption and "bad idea" and such.

Both IC and AI managements have chosen what aircraft they wish to have. By using politicians to overturn the airlines decisions shows just how desperate Boeing has got. The dynamics behind the current moves must be investigated. Boeing has clearly been working its "Entertainment Account" again!

-Roy
 
N79969
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:12 pm

Ah yes, one of my favorite recurrent threads. Roy is almost exactly right except he should substitute the word "Airbus" for "Boeing" in reply 39. Almost Roy. Keep trying and eventually you will get the facts straight.

It was Airbus that had the government of France tie sales of military equipment to India to an A340 order after the 777 prevailed in a technical evaluation.

I am not sure how military sales are germane to airline's fleet planning decisions but apparently they can be so long as none of the parties to the deal are Americans.

I hope that Boeing prevails in its efforts to undo the political interference of the French government and that B777 is eventually selected before production of the type ceases.

[Edited 2004-06-03 05:16:11]

[Edited 2004-06-03 05:17:11]
 
Alpha 1
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:18 pm

Boeing has never been known to be a good loser.

ROTFLMAO. And Airbus has, Roy? Riiight.
 
N79969
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:41 pm

Airbus took the cake for bad losers when it had Romano Prodi write a letter of complaint to PM Junichiro Koizumi after ANA (a private company) replaced A320 with 737NG.
 
mandala499
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:35 pm

If everyone fights over about Airbus and Boeing, who's clean who's dirty, who's a sore looser etc... fine, get some Il96s and Tu204s then...

Juuust kidding...

Mandala499
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BOEING787
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:27 pm

The 777-300ER seems the best option in my opinion but looks like Airbus will get it's way !

Anyway AI plans to concentrate on expanding nonstops to Europe and the U.S. from India's metro's (BOM/DEL/CCU/MAA) and mini-metro's (BLR/AMD/HYD).

`AI EXPRESS' or `AI CHARTERS' (whatever the new LCC will be called) is def. interested in the 737-800's.

(This is info obtained from their sales and marketing people.)

 
Motorhussy
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:39 pm

They need a combination of:

A346, A345, A343, A333 & A332

or

773ER, 772LR, 772ER, 777 & 7E7.

Their current order appears short-sighted to me.

IMO
MH
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chris78cpr
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 8:43 pm

I think that AI colors would look great on the fusealage of the triple 7! Not to keen on the 343 tho! Flew on it and man did i not enjoy it!

Chris
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Guest

RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:27 pm

Well hasnt this thread evolved into a mature bashing of the A340.

The fact is very few new customers bought the 343 after the 772IGW/ER entered into service in 1997

Comparing A340 orders post-1997 to 772ER orders pre-1997 is apples and oranges.

The 777-200HGW picked up its first order a mere 8 months after the 200A, In 1991. Infact the go-ahead of the 'ER' happened the same day as the 'A'. True it would take a long time to build but the option was there.
 
mrniji
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:24 am

Anyway AI plans to concentrate on expanding nonstops to Europe and the U.S. from India's metro's (BOM/DEL/CCU/MAA)

Boeing787, is CCU really in the race?? That would be surprising and a positive step
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Air India To "re-evaluate" A340-300 Selection

Fri Jun 04, 2004 3:46 am


Comparing A340 orders post-1997 to 772ER orders pre-1997 is apples and oranges.


And who's comparing to 772ER orders pre-1997? Why is post-1997 important? Because it was in 1997 when the 772IGW/ER was no longer a paper plane. Airlines actually knew how the airplane performed. In fact, I would move one year back to 1996 when the 343X first entered service. It was the year when airlines really knew how the 343X performed. You would still have the same result. Since 1996 only the six airlines I previously mentioned had become new 343 operators with newly factory-ordered 343s.

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