trijetfan1
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The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:59 am

What do you think will be your the next order for UAL?
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brons2
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:02 am

Chapter 7 liquidation when the government backed loan does not materialize, and they are unable to exit bankruptcy.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
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ua2162
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:04 am

I'm a very optimistic person...

The launch order in the United States for the 7E7!

[Edited 2004-06-01 03:08:29]
 
adipasqu
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:05 am

OUCH!!! That hurts!

It would be really weird to fly into ORD and see something other than UA birds at T1!

I agree with UA2162, they'll eventually order the 7E7 if they stay afloat, but they might not be the US launch customer...AA will be IMO.

[Edited 2004-06-01 03:07:51]
707 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 741 742 752 753 762 763 764 D9S D10 319 320 321 M80 M82 M83 M87 M88 M90 SF3 ERJ CRJ
 
N777UA
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:16 am

Most likely they will reactivate dormant A320 family orders and eventually replace the 737 fleet. The 7E7 is a possibility in the future....but remember United has a large 757/767 fleet that isn't too far up there in years. The 767-200 is on its way out though.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:17 am

Brons2: So you're certain then that there are no other options for UAL if the ATSB loan falls through? No investor groups waiting in the wings? You're absolutely certain that UAL has no contingency plans in place? The 2nd largest airline in the world is just going to collapse overnight, huh? Sounds to me like it's pure speculation and wishful thinking on your behalf. Do you work for NW by any chance?

I think UAL WILL survive, however sadly their next order will be for the A330. If I'm not mistaken, none of the engines available for the 7E7 are what United uses (P&W) however the A330 can use P&W.



[Edited 2004-06-01 03:18:06]
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gigneil
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:18 am

United, as a rule, will probably not order anything GE powered anytime soon.

N
 
futureuapilot
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:19 am

My dream would be for them to order the A380. My dream plane with my dream airline for me to fly as my dream job!!!  Big grin
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brons2
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:21 am

Do you work for NW by any chance?

No, I work for the government.
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
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ua2162
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:22 am

Brons2: So you're certain then that there are no other options for UAL if the ATSB loan falls through? No investor groups waiting in the wings? You're absolutely certain that UAL has no contingency plans in place? The 2nd largest airline in the world is just going to collapse overnight, huh? Sounds to me like it's pure speculation and wishful thinking on your behalf. Do you work for NW by any chance?

You tell him!  Smile
That's right!  Big grin

I think UAL WILL survive, however sadly their next order will be for the A330. If I'm not mistaken, none of the engines available for the 7E7 are what United uses (P&W) however the A330 can use P&W.

As much as I hate to hear this, you're probably right. Please excuse my ignorance but why will Boeing not option P&Ws on the 7E7?
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:26 am

No, I work for the government.

Well...for the sake of all the UA employees and loyal customers on this forum, we can all hope you're not on the ATSB 3-person panel...



I'm sure there's a very techical reason why the P&W powerplant was deemed insufficient for the 7E7, but it was RR, GE, and Trent I believe that Boeing chose as engine suppliers.




And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
N754PR
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:30 am

This airline should not even be flying, how can they make another HUGE order??
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Mir
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:32 am

I think UAL WILL survive, however sadly their next order will be for the A330. If I'm not mistaken, none of the engines available for the 7E7 are what United uses (P&W) however the A330 can use P&W.

Didn't stop them from using IAE engines on their 320/319s.

Even so, I'd love to see a 330 in UA colors. Even the new ones.
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:37 am

This airline should not even be flying

Based on....????

I'll bet you're going to tell me and the rest of us because UAL is losing money, right? Because they have a lot of debt? Bad management? Because they're burning money? Sure...UAL is dealing with all that, but so are all the other US airlines, and the case could be made for several international airlines, too!

Hmmm...well, if that's your criteria, then all the major US airlines shouldn't be flying either, right? News flash! Had it not been for a fuel hedge, Southwest Airlines would have posted a Q1 loss! Does that mean that Southwest shouldn't be flying, either?

I just couldn't let a foolish comment like that slide by unanswered...
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
alphascan
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:42 am

So you're certain then that there are no other options for UAL if the ATSB loan falls through? No investor groups waiting in the wings? You're absolutely certain that UAL has no contingency plans in place? The 2nd largest airline in the world is just going to collapse overnight, huh?

If there are other options, UA is ineligible for the loan guarantee. Kind of a two edged sword, huh?
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:58 am

If there are other options, UA is ineligible for the loan guarantee. Kind of a two edged sword, huh?

I didn't know that, but it does make sense, and you're right that it's a dual-edge sword, and UAL mgmt. better hope like hell that they don't fall on that sword. Personally, I wish UAL didn't put all their eggs in one basket with this loan, but so be it.

The point I was trying to make is that UAL/United Airlines isn't going to vanish overnight if they don't get the loan. Given the brand strength, an investor group can be quickly assembled to make a bid for UAL Corp. Lastly, while I don't know this for sure, I would think that senior management at UAL have some sort of plan that will be put in place if they are denied the loan. Let's hope that plan never sees the light of day...

And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
ual747den
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 11:19 am

I think the next order will be for the 7E7.
Now for all of you people that think that UA will just shut down one day I have one question, ARE YOU CRAZY? There are so many things that can be done to save the airline that there is no way UA will go under. What UA is trying to do is not have to sell anything and keep the entire airline intact and the way it is now. Just by selling off routes and aircraft im sure they would have enough money to stay afloat. Can you imagine how much an airline would pay for the DEN hub?? I do think that UA will get the loan but again if they don't, the airline will do just fine.
(Do you people typing this things think that CO should be gone and that DL should close when they file or is it just some kind of grudge against UA??)
/// UNITED AIRLINES
 
baw2198
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:14 pm

I think that United's next order will be for the 7e7, and not the A330. United has always used boeing for long haul aircraft (not counting the Dc-8's). I just don't see United changing to airbus for long haul aircraft since UA has such a great parts and tech support from boeing.

My prediction--> Look for UA to put an order in for about 20 7e7's within the next 2 yrs. Maybe less if they come out of Ch.11 quicker and much healthier than they are now.

"AA will be the first to order the 7e7 for the U.S. carriers"

I couldn't agree more.

Cheers

Baw2198
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:39 pm

I HOPE United would buy the 7E7...that airplane will be assembled two miles from where I live, so I'm very biaed in favor of that airplane....

...but I also know the reality: UA prefers P&W engines, and the 7E7 doesn't offer an engine made by P&W. Will United go with RR or Trent? Highly unlikely. GE? Even MORE unlikely! In recent years, Airbus has sold airplanes to United for dirt-cheap prices, and as as one of the largest creditors, there will be immense pressure on mgmt. to order more Airbus aircraft once UAL is in a position to do so. Sadly, very sadly....I think we'll see a United A330, A340, or even an A380 in UA colors before we see a United 7E7. I avoid flying on Airbus equipment, even if it is on UA, and will either pay more or go out of my way to fly on only Boeing aircraft.

And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
alexinwa
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:45 pm

"If it's not Boeing.....I'm not going!!!"
You mad Bro???
 
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mariner
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:02 pm

Steven:

"Let's hope that plan never sees the light of day..."

In some ways, you might wish that it would.

I know Jack Brace said - a while ago - that the capital markets are closed to UAL, but I doubt that is entirely true. They now claim that UAL has come a long way financially.

So, unless they're telling fibs or unless UAL's debt is so huge and so encumbered (which it may be, I don't know), money is almost always available - for such a large corporation - but at a price.

The question is the price.

And the ATSB is a very expensive way of getting access to money. They take warrants in the company's stock, and those warrants don't go away when the loan is repaid - the warrants are the price of the guarantee.

(Check out the ATSB deal with HP, which set the pattern).

So - the airline borrows from the lender and pays interest on that and then the (new) sharholders have to cope with the dilution of their shares when the warrants are exercised- a double whammy.

It would be so much better if UAL could find a way to get what they need without the ATSB - both commerically and politically.

cheers

mariner
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Cessna172RG
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:04 pm

As much as I dispise United for my own personal reasons...

-Bad Management
-Low stock value
-"Employee owned" perks that now have turned into a nightmare for employee portfolios (Yeah, what was once gold in the bank is now dirt)
-Horrible service
-Horrible baggage handlers
-Spending cash that they don't have
-Ted. Why not Herb? Or Bob? Or Gus? Perhaps an airline named Cleetus that flies between DC and Rappohannock, VA?

Yes, I think that you may just flame me here, but please read this, after all, the cup is only half full...

In the current airline situation, yes, United isn't looking pretty. But, they have tons of employees, those people, I respect, as workers. It's hard enough for me to try to find a job in the states, which is why I'm in Japan, teaching english, making more than what I can make if I were to stay in the states and compete with 40 foreign workers to get that burger flipping job at Mickey D's.

The point is, these people have jobs. And families to feed. They need to survive. If these people are to survive, then United needs to find a way to survive. I don't think that they will just simply let United fall into the historical archives with Pan Am, Braniff, Eastern, etc... I'm sure that something will come around and pull them out.

If United flopped today, imagine how many people would be out of work, and imagine tomorrow, how many people would be looking for another job, out of which, only a few could get, due to the oversaturation of unemployed workers.

Just like Boeing in Seattle, laying off 30,000 workers whenever it feels like doing so.

Then again, if you want to get this economy up and booming, and save that airline from disaster, forget flying first class on Delta. Forget using your miles on American. Forget trying the new Northwest A330, it'll be around for years, as you can see they have kept their DC-9s for three decades now. Put some of your money into this failing economy. Fly United. They need the cash.

Pilots gotta eat, too...
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
 
planespotting
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:10 pm

GE and United have had a sour taste in their mouths ever since United 292 crashed at SUX in 1989. GE blamed United for foul maitenance practices and United stood firm behind it's MX and tried to shift blame towards the engine and....yeah. United has not ordered GE engines since. they got P&W on their new 777's. My friend Adams dad works at the P&W plant in Maine and got us some really cool models!
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StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:35 pm

Mariner:

Your post underlies my reasons for why I'm angry with UAL for even pursuing this ATSB thing since Nov. 2002. It sucks! Why would any business entity want the government involved? We all know the government's track record! The problem is...Jim Goodwin back in 2001 went around publicly stating that UAL would 'perish'...and he convinced the capital markets that it would, and guess what? The capital markets slammed their doors (and wallets) shut.

Fast forward to today, where UAL has made HUGE strides in restructuring, and apart from fuel and bankruptcy expenses, are performing MUCH better operationally (if you read the recent press release, UAL paid out a small bonus to employees that was tied to operational excellence!) and once they clear Ch. 11, they will be doing much better. The rollout of TED went well and is even exceeding UAL's original expectations, regaining some critical market share in key markets, while paradoxically not seeming to hurt their competitors one bit. They've hit the DIP covenants every month, and their revenue trends are always better than the same period a year prior.

I think there are some capital markets open to UAL now, albeit VERY expensive, and probably at rates ranging from 10-20%. Expensive money, but as a CFO, I'd rather pay interest on those notes than have the federal government crawling around and being on the hook to them.

It will be VERY interesting to see what happens...
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:37 pm

since United 292 crashed at SUX in 1989

Actually, it was flight #232 that crashed in SUX in 1989....
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:37 pm

Please excuse my ignorance but why will Boeing not option P&Ws on the 7E7?

Boeing is only allowing two engine manufactures on the 7E7. According to Boeing, Pratt had an excellent engine, but they were not willing to raise the finances to become a risk sharing partner. GE and RR were willing, so they were selected.

United, as a rule, will probably not order anything GE powered anytime soon.

They're is always Rolls Royce. And if Pratt doesn't get back in the game soon, United may have no choice between GE and RR.

Sadly, very sadly....I think we'll see a United A330, A340, or even an A380 in UA colors before we see a United 7E7.

It would be a chilly day in hell when an A340 flew, as they have a large fleet of 772ERs. As for a A303 order, they already have a fleet of 772A which are sized very close to the A333. Quite a few airlines have made the A330/777 combo work, but UA?

The 7E7 would cover more of United's fleet (without overlaping fleet types) than an A330-300/200 order. Not to mention, Boeing can low-ball Airbus by a good 30-mil on aquisition cost. If UA can get a 7E7 for 60-mil after outrageous discounts, is engine selection really going to matter? Then there is the possibility of cross-crew certification with the 777.

I'm not lobying for the 7E7, but the A330 just doesn't make sense IMO after the engine argument.

Didn't stop them from using IAE engines on their 320/319s.

IAE V2500 is a joint venture between Pratt, Rolls Royce, and someone in Japan.
 
S12PPL
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:40 pm

Some how I knew when I saw this topic that it'd turn into another "United is going down!" thread in a heartbeat. Sadly, my guess was right.

Come on guys...this thread was about IF United is able to order more planes, what will they order?"

Not: "United is going bankrupt, they won't order anything else!"

Let's stick to the topic guys....
Next Flights: 12/31 AS804 PDX-MCO 2/3 AS19 MCO-SEA QX2545 SEA-PDX
 
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mariner
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:58 pm

Steven:

Obviously, we agree, if for slightly different reasons.

I wonder if UAL became locked into the idea of the ATSB at a time when they certainly may have needed it.

I think - for what that's worth - that the ATSB did UAL a huge disservice by allowing them to apply again. They didn't do it for any other airline.

Tiny Spirit Airlines applied, was denied and was not allowed to apply again. The reason given was that the ATSB did not believe Spirit be able to repay the loan.

And Spirit was in deep financial doo-doo. But they put their heads down and their tail up, and worked at it - and have been able to raise money on the capital market.

Granted, it's only $150 million and UAL is looking for 10 times that - but UAL is more than 10 times bigger than Spirit, and has a hugely bigger brand.

So it is possible that, being locked into the idea of the ATSB, UAL feels they have to get the approval, as some sort of "proof of viability."

CEO Tilton seems to be taking the ATSB issue very personally - "I deserve the loan" - he didn't say "UAL", he said "I".

Assuming UAL does get the nod, when they exit bk they will almost certainly issue new shares. Those new shareholders have to bite the bullet, knowing that their holdings will be diluted the moment the ATSB exercises their warrants.

Which is a pity, I think.

cheers

mariner
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DfwRevolution
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 1:58 pm

And just out of curiosity, UA does have a fleet of GE powered CRJ-700s right? Or are they Mesa or someone else?


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United_fan
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:01 pm

Dfw,Air Wisconisn owns or leases that CRJ . I think we all know UA swore off GE powerplants after Siox (sp?)City.....
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
FA4UA
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:42 pm

I'm not advocating this but: Airbus shouldn't be totally discounted as an option.

1. Airbus is going to put huge pressure on UA to buy more Airbus products (whether it's 320, 321, 330, 340 and some even say Airbus wants UA to be the US launch customer for the 380) around our exit from Ch. 11.

2. One pilot I was speaking with last month in LHR says that Airbus is our future since it takes less time to transition FO's from one Airbus plane to another, vs. Boeing to Airbus. It cuts training time down by something like 2 weeks!

Another rumor floating around the Pilots at UA is that we're going to trade in all the 744's for 773's over the next couple of years.

Despite how far fetched all this is, it's still very entertaining to hear all the rumors buzzing around!

FA4UA
The debate continues... Starwood or Hyatt... which is better
 
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United_fan
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 2:48 pm

Thanks for the info,FA4UA. I was wondering if the 773 could fly SFO/LAX-SYD ? What are the ETOPS rules ? I'm sure it could be used in place of a 744 on all other routes.
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
aviatortj
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 4:16 pm

Another rumor floating around the Pilots at UA is that we're going to trade in all the 744's for 773's over the next couple of years.

When I was talking to a pilot a few weeks ago, he made it sound like they were flying more 744s and parking the 772s these days because the cost of the 744 is so much less than the 772. Maybe things would change when there is more money to play with.

__TJ___
 
CarbHeatIn
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:03 pm

Brons2,
United has already secured significant non-guaranteed finance from JP Morgan among others. Such profitable financial institutions are not in the habit of just throwing away their cash; so I'm of the opinion that UA's business plan is pretty strong and that there is a contingency staregy if the ATSB guarantee fails to materialise.
 
keesje
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 9:10 pm


B767-400ER should perhaps be most realistic

- low cost (Boeing willing to offer bottom prices..)
- fits in existing fleet perfectly (crew / maintenance costs)
- can do most of the US / european network perfectly (except asia.)

UA is in the survival mode, no glossy head turners required ..


"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
dutchjet
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:06 pm

UA's major concern at the moment is getting out of bankruptcy, closing the loan, and trying to make a profit. That in itself is a huge order.

With lots of very new and serviceable aircraft for both short and long haul, including some that remain parked at this time, UA is not going to jeopardize its future with a post bankruptcy ordering spree.....its just too risky and could put UA at risk of violating the covenants contained in the exit financing.

Sometimes I think people forget that each new airliner costs 10s of millions of dollars, UA just cannot spend this money right now. New aircraft, and the financing of new aircraft, are very expensive, and create risk......just ask anyone at US Airways: all of those marvelous, pretty, fuel efficient and very advanced Airbus airliners are US's biggest problem - great airplanes, huge costs.
 
caetravlr
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:08 pm

I'm sure there's a very techical reason why the P&W powerplant was deemed insufficient for the 7E7, but it was RR, GE, and Trent I believe that Boeing chose as engine suppliers.

Just to be clear, RR and Trent are NOT two separate companies as some of the above threads indicated. Trent is a model of RR engine. Two companies offer engines for the 7E7, GE and RR. Whether or not this is an issue for UAL making orders in the future, no one on here can say. Airbus will offer sweet deals, and so will Boeing. The 7E7s will blend well with the current large 777 fleet, and is a great replacement for the 767s they have.

And for all of you talking about the financial viability of UAL, that is kind of irrelevant to the thread.

As for me, I could easily see the 7E7 being ordered in the next couple of years.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
Hirnie
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:20 pm

The next big order will be A320/319 to get rid of the rest of the 737-fleet.
Thereafter they might think of 7E7 or A330.But everybody knows why this will happen in some years earliest.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Tue Jun 01, 2004 10:24 pm

**Most likely they will reactivate dormant A320 family orders and eventually replace the 737 fleet. The 7E7 is a possibility in the future....but remember United has a large 757/767 fleet that isn't too far up there in years. The 767-200 is on its way out though.**

As of now the 767-200s are over 20 years old, by the time the 7E7 comes out in 2008, some of their 767-300s and their 757s will be approaching 20 years.
 
erikwilliam
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:49 am

How about EMB-195´s to replace their 737 fleet, reduce costs, improve load factors plus get a brand new plane that nobody have it.
Just a silly dream, but I have to agree with DutchJet, they probably won´t order anything soon, besides they have some planes parked right?!

Have a nice evenning
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7e72004
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:52 am

They are going to get Northwest's DC-9s when they get rid of them  Big thumbs up
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
ual777contrail
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:02 am

FA4UA,
I have also heard that the 773 would fit the niche for UAL. Getting rid of the whale however is far fetched right now, but the 773 would look awesome in UAL colors.

couldn't see UAL going all airbus, and a cold day in hell before UAL buys the A380. There isn't one route that it would fit on, maybe DEN-ORD? NAW.


UAL 777 CONTRAIL
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:13 am

I was wondering if the 773 could fly SFO/LAX-SYD ?

773A could not; 773ER could in most cases




What are the ETOPS rules ?

At this point, UA could utilize no more than ETOPS180 in the S.Pacific





When I was talking to a pilot a few weeks ago, he made it sound like they were flying more 744s and parking the 772s these days because the cost of the 744 is so much less than the 772.

That's because UA was able to renegotiate lease/finance and pilot-pay rates for the 744, but did not have the flexibility with the 772s.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
airtran737
Posts: 3222
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2004 3:47 am

RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:15 am

I think in order to save money we will see United try to get Boeing to startup the DC-3 line again. Who knows maybe they can get some DC-9's from Northwest, I hear that they're going to retire them soon. I wonder what Northwest will get to replace the old DC-9?
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:30 am

Didn't stop them from using IAE engines on their 320/319s.

The IAE is a Pratt and Whitney product as much as it is a Rolls Royce product. No surprise there.

The surprise was NW being so angry at IAE that they ordered CFM56s for their A320s. NW is so Pratt happy that they're willing to completely pass on the 777, but not so much to keep them from the CFM56.

N
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:29 am

United should be dead. The federal government has no right to bail any airline out and waste taxpayers' dollars.

Subsidizing the weak...
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:37 am

Its not a subsidy. The government pays no money, and if UA defaults, the government gets the assets and takes care of the creditors.

The federal government also passed the resolution to form the ATSB with an almost unanimous vote, so I guess they do have the right. Complain to your congressperson.

N
 
caetravlr
Posts: 856
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 8:19 am

RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 4:52 am

Thank you Gigneil, you took the words right out of my mouth in response to MD-90. Hopefully some people on here will learn the defintion of "subsidy" and "loan guarantee" soon, and will learn the major differences between the two.
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
MD-90
Posts: 7835
Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2000 12:45 pm

RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:07 am

Leigslators are hardly known for resisting the temptation to spend money.

Although Ron Paul, congressman from Texas, is an exemplary example.



Here's a newsflash, boys- when the government interferes in the free market, it can either subsidize it or hurt it. EPA regulations usually hurt. A loan guarantee (why wouldn't anyone loan money to United without that guarantee?) is a subsidy!
 
CarbHeatIn
Posts: 177
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 6:31 pm

RE: The Next Big Order For UAL

Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:12 am

Guys, as I've said already:
"United has already secured significant non-guaranteed finance from JP Morgan among others. Such profitable financial institutions are not in the habit of just throwing away their cash; so I'm of the opinion that UA's business plan is pretty strong and that there is a contingency strategy if the ATSB guarantee fails to materialise."

However, going after the guarantee (and the subsequent lower interest rates a guarantee would ensure) is the smart thing to do from UA's perspective.