United777
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Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:27 am

I don't mean to start a PIA vs. AI topic here or a Pakistan vs India but I was just wondering why does PIA fly to more cities (international) than Air India.

I know it's not by much, PIA has more flights than Air India mainly to Europe but if there is a market for PIA to serve some of the cities, I'm sure there is for AI, right?

 
ND
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:35 am

From what I've seen so far, new longhaul aircraft purchases by Air India have been consistently delayed due to political reasons, preventing them from opening new routes.
ND - Hated By Many, Confronted By None
 
Speedbird2025
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 6:42 am

United777..

I was wondering the very same thing why AI doesn't have at least more US destinations and more Destinations to Europe as well. Especially made me wonder since we just got PIA two times a week. I dropped off my cousin just yesterday at IAH as she was headed back to Mumbai for a few months and there were a TON of Indian people going the same sector as she (IAH-JFK-LHR-DEL-BOM) on AI. I sure wish we would get AI here in Houston. Maybe we will soon. Can't wait for China Airlines in a few weeks  Smile

--Nate
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:03 am

Nate,

AI does have slots at IAH so now the ball is in AI's court. I suppose as other threads and an earlier post here have indicated that the lack of avaliable A/C has played a major part in their slower int'l expansion. One huge bugaboo for IAH and AI getting together however is that damned Bermuda 2 treaty. AI has indicated that any future IAH service will be routed through LHR and we in Houston knows what that means. A certain Dallas senator was very vocal in her opposition for any IAH/LHR nonstop for obvious reasons. So the saga of AI and IAH's pending relationship will continue for a little longer I am afraid to say.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Speedbird2025
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:32 am

Ah.... I See Thomas.
Let Go Get That Senator. LOL! J/K  Smile
 
ND
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 10:56 am

AI does have slots at IAH so now the ball is in AI's court. I suppose as other threads and an earlier post here have indicated that the lack of avaliable A/C has played a major part in their slower int'l expansion. One huge bugaboo for IAH and AI getting together however is that damned Bermuda 2 treaty. AI has indicated that any future IAH service will be routed through LHR and we in Houston knows what that means. A certain Dallas senator was very vocal in her opposition for any IAH/LHR nonstop for obvious reasons. So the saga of AI and IAH's pending relationship will continue for a little longer I am afraid to say.

Why can't AI just route through somewhere else like MAN or AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA?
ND - Hated By Many, Confronted By None
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:47 am

This a very good question, ND. One I have been asking myself and of others for some time, so far nothing. Perhaps it is because AI has such a large presence at LHR. Keep in mind that all of their N.Am (JFK/EWR, ORD and the upcoming LAX flight) operations are routed in this manner thus AI would probably rather stick with LHR a proven performer for the carrier than taking a gamble and going to the expense setting up another European gateway from anyone of the airports that you mentioned. That is just my take on the situation and I readily admit that I could be waaaay of base, so I'd be willing to read other's takes on this.

At this point I am elated at PK's new service and look foward to CI's ops later this month and if our Egyptian friend, Horus's statements are correct then we might have Egypt Air early in '05'. All in all while I would dearly love to have AI join our little family at IAH, I am not at all unhappy with IAH's circumtances at the moment.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
Speedbird2025
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:52 am

Well Put Thomas. Couldn't Have Said It Better Myself.
U Gonna Be Out There Manana?? I Will Have To Skip Tomorrow, But Will Be Out There Sunday.

--Nathan
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 12:08 pm

Hi Nate,
I won't be able to make it tommorrow though I am keeping my fingers crossed for Sunday.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
B747-437B
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:33 pm

AI does have slots at IAH so now the ball is in AI's court.

AI absolutely does not have slots at IAH. The airport is not even slot constrained so I have no clue what you mean by that.

Furthermore, as I have posted innumerable times on this forum, Houston is NOT a designated gateway under the existing India-US bilateral. The bilateral, as modified by the MOC in 1996, allows Air India to serve New York, Chicago and either Los Angeles OR San Francisco on its own metal - with a maximum of three other destinations to be served via codeshare.

There will most probably be a petition made for extra-bilateral rights to SFO early next year which will likely be opposed by Northwest because of its long-standing dispute regarding Amsterdam-India codeshares with KLM. As a result, a DOT ruling will have to be made on the issue, and in all likelihood they will kick the bilateral back for a new round of talks and ideally a modified MOC again. However, until that happens there is absolutely no possibility of AI serving anywhere other than the current gateways.

One huge bugaboo for IAH and AI getting together however is that damned Bermuda 2 treaty.

On a purely hypothetical basis, even if Air India were granted rights to Houston, why on earth would they be subject to Bermuda II - a treaty between the United States and the United Kingdom?

The India-US bilateral (which predates Bermuda II by almost 30 years) as well as Air India's general operating license (which also predates Bermuda II by decades) both grant AI the rights to operate "from India via points in Asia, Africa, Europe, U.K., Ireland, Canada.... and beyond.... or to such points as may be mutually agreed upon at a later date."

If AI were granted Houston as a US gateway, they would absolutely be permitted to route their flights though Heathrow. However, it is Houston that is not designated as the approved gateway.

AI has indicated that any future IAH service will be routed through LHR

Nobody at AI has EVER indicated that there was any future IAH service let alone through LHR.

Perhaps it is because AI has such a large presence at LHR. Keep in mind that all of their N.Am (JFK/EWR, ORD and the upcoming LAX flight) operations are routed in this manner

Newark is served via Paris. Chicago is served via Frankfurt. Los Angeles will be served via Frankfurt. Please get your facts straight.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
thomasphoto60
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 1:48 pm

Well B747-437B,

I stand corrected.

As I stated in my post "I readily admit that I could be way of base" So your hostile attitude is not warranted. Indeed using the word 'slot' was incorrect, rather I should have said, landing rights. As for the comments regarding IAH and AI's landing rights, well I am basing this on reports from both the Houston Chronicle and CNBC, circa 2000. If these 2 sources are incorrect then so be it. I'll endeavor to post a link or in some way back up what was quoted from the above media outlets in the coming days. As for the EWR, ORD and LAX flights, after re-checking the AI web site I see that I made an error, again I stand corrected.

Thomas
"Show me the Braniffs"
 
jaysit
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 2:52 pm

"There will most probably be a petition made for extra-bilateral rights to SFO early next year which will likely be opposed by Northwest because of its long-standing dispute regarding Amsterdam-India codeshares with KLM."

Whats NW griping about?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
United777
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 3:15 pm

WTH. Gee you guys for answering my question.  Yeah sure Once again some of you forget about the topic.  Smile
 
mrniji
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 5:58 pm

Furthermore, as I have posted innumerable times on this forum, Houston is NOT a designated gateway under the existing India-US bilateral. The bilateral, as modified by the MOC in 1996, allows Air India to serve New York, Chicago and either Los Angeles OR San Francisco on its own metal - with a maximum of three other destinations to be served via codeshare.

Do JFK and EWR count as one (NYC) destination??

WTH. Gee you guys for answering my question. Once again some of you forget about the topic.

Do you have the number of international destinations PK and AI serve?

First, consider that there is something like IC in India, which also state-owned, 'reduces' AI's international gateway numbers

Then, something we should also keep in mind is the frequency. Instead of international desinations we could also ask for international flights. Using this 'theoretical considerations, numbers look different. Then, cities in the Gulf and Southeast Asia have to be served from multiple cities in India, which 'reduces' the number of international destinations there. Hence, as said, count the number of international flights in order to compare, it is a little more reliable.

Of course, as said, AI just lacks equipment. Let's see how things change when these a/c finally enter the fleet

"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
DIJKKIJK
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 7:10 pm

Mrniji,
"AI just lacks equipment."

Let's do a fleet comparison here. PIA's LONGHAUL fleet comprises of

8X A300B4, 10x A310-300, 2x 747-200, 2x 747-200 SCD, 7X 737-300, 6X 747-300 and 2X 777-200ER. That makes 37 aircraft right now (excl the 777s which are to be delivered)

AI's fleet (entirely longhaul) consists of
9X 747-400, 2X 747-300, 4X 747-200, 18X A310-300. That makes 33 airplanes.
So PIA doesn't have a considerably larger number of aircraft compared to Air India, and if you consider that their 737-300s don't do many international routes, PIA actually has lesser longhaul aircraft than AI.
Never argue with idiots. They will bring you down to their level, and beat you with experience.
 
mrniji
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 9:31 pm

DIJKKIJK,

accepted. Then we should, as I have posted, look at the strategy.
We can see that AI serves most of its destinations in a bigger frequency and from multiple India cities (esp Gulf and SEAsia). Probably, we should count the number of international flights instead the number of cities
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
AF022
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Wed Jun 02, 2004 11:08 pm

I would say because PK is less efficient than AI. Inefficient state-owned companies LOVE to have a route map with hundreds of lines, but efficient carriers operate with many frequencies.

AI has 23 weekly frequencies from the US/Canada, from 4 points
PK has 11 weekly frequencies from the US/Canada, from 4 points

PK spreads itself too thin.
 
mrniji
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:02 am

AF022, do you really think that a carrier with more destinations but less frequencies is less efficient? I am not sure, because:

- PIA can catch more traffic from more destinations (and eventually use 5th pax freedom).

And if the pax don't mind... I would measure this efficiency with the load-factor. A carrier with higher load factor is more efficient, regardless how many frequencies exist... but please criticize me if you think this is far fetched  Smile
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Vimanav
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:15 am

I too am of the opinion that its a fleet related issue. If AI had the airplane numbers I am sure that they would have operated to lot more cities than they currently do. In case of Pakistan, lets not forget that the total number of Pakistanis in the UK far exceed the total number of Indians besides of course having strong concentrations in cities such as MAN. Moreover, being a national carrier and Pakistanis abroad having a strong voice (a la the Gujaratis who just managed a non stop AMD-LON service) have managed to convince their Government to operate direct services to these cities. Again, I was quite surprised to see the number of Pakistanis in Scandinavia, hence their operations there also come as no surprise.

Another fact is that India's aviation industry is way too regulated and stifled. How else can one explain that for a country of one billion we have less than two hundred fixed wing commercial aircraft above 20tons MTOW operating with carriers you can count on fingers of Hrithik Roshan's right hand?

The bright side is that things are indeed looking up. The current situation reminds me of the of Doordarshan in the late seventies upto the mid eighties: one channel (max two), one hindi movie per week, one regional lingo film per week, one Chitrahaar, one 'Hum Log' and loads of 'Krishi Darshan' to bore you to death. Today the variety of channels and programs that we have is not only huge but world class. I strongly anticipate a similar scenario in the aviation/airline industry in India as well with a slew of quality carriers managed by some of the finest brains in the industry. AND THAT'S THE DAY... EK's going to sweat under its dishdasha. Smile/happy/getting dizzy

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
B747-437B
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:18 am

AI's fleet (entirely longhaul) consists of 9X 747-400, 2X 747-300, 4X 747-200, 18X A310-300

Actually, its currently 3x 742 (EFU has been AOG since Jan 2003) and 16x A310-300 (EVI should be parked awaiting return to lessor and EVH is either already or soon going into C-check prior to return).
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
B747-437B
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:31 am

Once again some of you forget about the topic.

To get back to the original topic, I am surprised that so many posters here have not come up with the most obvious reason, namely that PIA's market share of the international traffic to/from Pakistan is significantly higher than AI's market share of international traffic to/from India.

The market for international traffic to/from India was approximately 7 times the size of the market to/from Pakistan (source: DGCA - India and Statistics Division - Govt of Pakistan) in 2002. Air India provided approximately 18% of the total market capacity to/from India and PIA provided approximately 65% of the total capacity to/from Pakistan during the same period.

Simply put, PIA is able to serve a number of marginal markets simply because no other airlines serve Pakistan in direct competition on most routes. The market for international traffic to/from Pakistan has also shrunk significantly over the last few years (in comparison to India which is seeing almost 15-20% annual growth) while PIA's capacity has largely stayed flat, meaning that their proportional share of total capacity and marketshare automatically increases.

In layman's terms, PIA can support low frequency flights to Houston or Oslo or Athens simply because there are minimal real alternatives in those markets to traveling with them. British Airways serves India with 18 weekly frequencies but only 3 for Pakistan (and that too only recently reintroduced). Air France, KLM, Delta, Northwest, Alitalia, Singapore Airlines, Japan Airlines, Korean Air, Austrian, etc... don't even fly to Pakistan. Even airlines that do serve the market do so in dribs and drabs (4x 1-stop by LX, 2x by MH, etc...) compared to their presences in India. To use an analogy, "in the land of the blind the one eyed will be king". As long as the Pakistani market for air transport is largely dominated by ethnic VFR, it is inevitable that PIA will continue to enjoy its dominance and consequently a thin-spread route network.

"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
cloud4000
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:46 am

Yes, why are people comparing fleet size? Instead People should be comparing the physical size and the number of cities between the two countries. You can tell right away that Air India's fleet is completely inadequate for its needs.

Pakistan has three main international gateways-- Karachi, Lahore and Islamabad. Peshawar is negligible.

India on the other hand has at least two-- Delhi and Mumbai. With significant traffic at Chennai, Bangalore, Kochi, Kozhiode, Trivandrum, Hyderabad, and Calcutta.

Air India's fleet is spread through out the country. In England it should be matching PIA at Manchester, Birmingham and Glasgow. Those cities contain a large Indian population as well yet there is no service to them.
Boston, USA
 
mrniji
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:02 am

I read somewhere (I forgot the source, I am sorry) that KLM is considering to start Pakistan soon (maybe some new strategy in compliance with AF). Can anyone confirm?
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
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solnabo
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:11 am

I just watch a pic. with a "brand new PIA 313ET"! Toulouse doesn´t make any 310 these days, ore do they???
The a/c looked crispy new though, but I have my doubts...
Anyone knows more about this PIA 313ET?

Mike//SE  Big thumbs up
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solnabo
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:18 am

More info of PIA 313:
Picture at planepicture.net, a/c at Marseille, A310-325ET, F-OGYV.
Cheers

Micke//SE
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AF022
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:23 am

load factor & yield must be noted. you can have high load factors with garbage fares and the route will be a bloodbath. lots of airlines to KHI suffer from this.
and i stick with the 'spread too thin' argument. an airline cannot achieve economies of scale with so few frequencies. and you can't attract high-revenue business traffic with infrequent service. AA won't even start flights to a domestic station unless they can start with 21 flights/week.

PK flies to the following destinations once per week! egad!
- ALA, ATH, FJR, MHD, RKT, TIP

if you're looking for a sign of an inefficient operation, find the percentage of flights operated to a destination only once or twice/week.

PK = 31% gates served once/twice per week (20 of 64)
AI = 15% (6 of 40)
EK = 1% (1 of 70)

 
cloud4000
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:48 am

Is that really a new A310 for PIA? I didn't they had any on order. Or is it one of the refurbished A310s from Air Jamaica or Aeroflot?
Boston, USA
 
LFutia
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:53 am

Do you think AI would do good by going to AMS and starting new destinations via AMS when they get new 'craft and slots permit?
Leo/ORD -- Groetjes uit de VS! -- Heeft u laatst nog met KLM gevlogen?
 
mrniji
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 9:06 am

load factor & yield must be noted. you can have high load factors with garbage fares and the route will be a bloodbath. lots of airlines to KHI suffer from this.
and i stick with the 'spread too thin' argument. an airline cannot achieve economies of scale with so few frequencies. and you can't attract high-revenue business traffic with infrequent service. AA won't even start flights to a domestic station unless they can start with 21 flights/week.


As far as I remember, airmale or someone else posted that PIA is doing profits or has done profits - does someone have reliable figures?. If that is right, they are doing, as compared to AA, 'economies of scale'...  Smile

Although aviation is somehow the engine of globalization, we should not always compare some Asian Airlines like with other carriers like AA etc, since their market, conditions etc are entirely different
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
Vimanav
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 2:26 pm

With regard to yield from Pakistan, we must bear in mind again the major traffic type which is VFR. The average Pakistani family is two adults and three kids. With a large share of child fares on a full flight, yields are bound to get hit. EK operates 434 seater 773s to KHI which go chock-a-block with such traffic to the UK. EK's yields ex Pakistan are thus quite close to rock bottom. The advantage that EK (and most other foreign operators) have in Pakistan is that their bilaterals are concluded on the basis of frequencies per week rather than capacity/number of seats (which is the case in India). Hence EK (or most other foreign airlines) can do a change of gauge on their Pakistan routes at very short notice as long as they remain within the number of frequencies allotted to them.

B747-437B.. you are as usual bang on, but don't you also feel that if AI's fleet grew at the same rate as lets say TG or MH or SQ, they'd be operating to far more destinations in Europe/USA than PK?

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
airmale
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:13 pm

DIJKKIJK PK have retired one all pax 742, ex-CP Air plane that they had recieved in 1985 along with three others in exchnage for their four DC-10-30's, so they now have three 742s.
.....up there with the best!
 
airmale
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:32 pm

B747-437B with the exception of NWA, Delta, Korean and Austrian, all of the other airlines you have listed used to serve Karachi, and PIA was serving their respective bases as well with 747s/DC-10s throughout, infact those airlines were operating 747s/DC-10s/L1011's to Karachi as well before the trend changed to smaller aircraft from the 90's, so most of the destinations in PIA's network belong to the days when there were bilateral services between Pakistan and other countries using large aircraft, the fact that there may not have been many people travelling to Pakistan, or that the airlines used Karachi as part of multi sector flights is insignificant because that was the trend in those days, the only new destinations PIA have added are Oslo, Milan, Birmingham, Toronto, Chicago and Houston besides Washington which was suspended, Al Ain, Fujairah and Ras Al Khaimah in the middle east in this case as well Air Canada is the only airline that never served Pakistan, the others cities are in countries that were/are represented by their airlines here.
.....up there with the best!
 
B747-437B
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Mon Jun 07, 2004 3:21 pm

Wow Airmale. That has to be a new record for the longest single sentence post on airliners.net! Big grin
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
airmale
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:56 pm

Posted in a single breath Smile

Other new destinations that PIA added during the 90's were Baku, Ashkabad, Tashkent, Almaty in Central Asia former four were suspended of which TAS amd ALA were restored last December all were represented by their carriers flying to Karachi.

in the Far East they added Hong Kong in 2000, and CX are operating here too.

List of airlines that have quit Pakistan and aircraft types they used to Karachi over the years (70's-2000's), most of the Airbus services debuted in the 90's, with the exception of Philippine and Singapore Airlines who were using them here since the 80's.

JAL DC8, DC10
Philippine Airlines A300, DC10, 747
Garuda Indonesia ?
Singapore Airlines 743, A300, A310, A340, 777ER
Royal Nepal 727
Air Kazakhstan Tu154
Uzbekistan Airways Tu154, IL86, ARJ85
Turkmenistan Airlines Tu154, 733
Azerbaijan Airlines Tu154
Iraqi Airways 727, 742
Iran Aseman F27 (to Quetta only)
Oman Air 733, A320, A310, 727, 73NG
Yemenia 732, 727, A310
MEA ?
Egypt Air 732, A300
Libyan Arab 727, 707
Kenya Airways 720, 757
Sudan Airways A310
ZAS Air A300
African International 707
Swissair DC10
Aeroflot IL62, Tu154, IL86, A310
Interflug IL62
Tarom IL62, Tu154, RomBAC111
Alitalia ?
KLM 742/743, MD11, 763
Lufthansa DC10, 742, A300/310
Air France 742, 744, A310
SAS DC10
British Airways L1011, 742, 763 (KHI) 744 (ISB)
Pan Am 741/2

Majority of the airlines listed above were in KHI till the 80's- early 90's, and PIA were operating to all of their home bases with varying equipment ranging from the 737 to the 747.
.....up there with the best!
 
Horus
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:01 pm

Egypt Air 732, A300

When Egyptair terminated their services 2 months ago they were operating flights with A320s.
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
airmale
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RE: Why PIA Has More Destinations Than AI?

Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:06 pm

What I'm trying to say is that with the exception of a few, all of PIA's destinations have been part of their network from the 70's and before and PIA were flying there competing directly with the foreign carriers listed above at KHI, so the network expansion or people flying PIA because they have no choice is not a new phenomenon, the PIA "choice" was always there even when they had better options.

Now why Air India quit flying to many of their destinations is what I'd like to know, because even when they did not have as many aircraft they covered the world quite well and had an impressive network, so what happened?
.....up there with the best!

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