airplaneboy
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Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 11:38 am

Since F9's expansion at LAX in April and May, we now serve five destinations nonstop: MSP, MCI, DEN, STL, and PHL. As mentioned in another thread, we're beefing up for the summer as our loads are very high.

Do you see any possible new routes from LAX? I think LAX-MSY would be great, as well as nonstops to FLL, RSW, AUS, and maybe ELP.

I also think it would be cool to try out LAX-PHX as no other LCC on the route (or airline for that matter) offers live TV.

I also think LAS is a great place for F9 to expand. I know WN and HP are big there, but maybe routes like LAS-MKE could do well. If F9 could match fares with WN and HP, at least the product we provide could be something attractive to LAS passengers.

What do you think?

Travis/LAX  Smile
 
Cactus739
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:03 pm

I don't really see Frontier jumping into the PHX-LAS market... they'd have to compete with HP, WN, and UA, Southwest has 14 dailies and America West has 10. Its a really short flight, not even an hour in the air if I remember, so PTV's wouldn't matter that much I would think.

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
airplaneboy
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:05 pm

Good point Cactus739

 Smile
 
WidgetBoi
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:10 pm

I'm not entirely sure that the 318 or 319 has the range, but it'd be great to see F9 fly LAX to PHL Big grin

jeremy
 
iowaman
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:10 pm

I also think LAS is a great place for F9 to expand. I know WN and HP are big there, but maybe routes like LAS-MKE could do well. If F9 could match fares with WN and HP, at least the product we provide could be something attractive to LAS passengers.

NW does MKE-LAS, i'm sure if F9 did that, they would be put through hell.
 
Cactus739
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:12 pm

Widget.... Frontier's flight 1776 goes LAX-PHL, nonstop even..  Smile

or were you being sarcastic?
You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
MSYtristar
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:14 pm

Widgetboi, F9 currently flies LAX-PHL daily with the 319.

Steve/MSY
 
WidgetBoi
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:16 pm

Ooops! I missed the PHL in the original post and had no clue F9 was already in the market.

Sorry Embarrassment

jeremy

I like the flight number though  Big grin
 
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mariner
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 12:56 pm

AirplaneBoy:

Good try. And I really don't want to burst your bubble, but -

LAX/LAS "belongs" to Southwest and America West. I forget how many flights they have between them, but it's a lot, and fares are rock bottom cheap.

Generally, LAS is such an over supplied destination that just about every airline flies there, and the yields are (usually) very low.

Similarly, LAX/PHX.

LAX/ELP? Although Southwest doesn't have hubs (they say) they have a sort of hub at ELP, and have several flights to LAX.

I agree with you about LAX/MSY, even though Southwest (again) has 1 x daily non-stop.

Same applies to LAX/AUS, but there is Southwest. Again!

Part of the trick is to think of routes where the established competition isn't going to go for major retaliation. You're probably not aware of what NWA did when Frontier announced LAX/MSP - but it was ugly. I'm not criticizing NWA - its what they do.

Example: no one serves LAX/OMA non-stop. I don't know if there's the traffic to support the route, but Frontier does very well DEN/OMA.

Now, just about every city in the country has service from/to LAX, but there are some routes where the competition doesn't matter so much. Perhaps LAX to some of the Florida cities could work well.

And you should probably get used to the idea of working late, because I suspect there'll be a couple more red-eyes from LAX. Frontier has fallen in love with red-eyes!

The thing is, Frontier isn't afraid of a fight, and if there's a route where they think they can do well, they'll go for it, despite the competition.

I'm just not clever enough to guess which ones they'll pick.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2004-06-03 05:56:55]
aeternum nauta
 
alphascan
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:01 pm

Love your attitude Travis!


LIVETV has low, low usage on short flights....about 10% according to your boss' boss' boss' boss' boss, Mr. Potter. But very high usage on longer routes like your MSP, STL and MCI flights.

Especially like the AUS idea. About 550 passengers each way per day. AA nonstops with three flights on MD-80s, one WN nonstop. If F9 can make LAX/MSP work, this one should too.

I think ELP is all RJ out of DEN. Might be kind of thin out of LAX.

Be flying LAX/MSP on Sunday PM. Hope to see you there. Would like 2C with 2A and 2B vacant please! Big grin
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
flashmeister
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:04 pm

F9 would be foolish to do anything at AS / KLAS), USA - Nevada">LAS, besides DEN service. AS / KLAS), USA - Nevada">LAS is a low-yield market for starters, and it's already saturated.

I do think that there's potential there for F9 to do some LAX service to secondary markets like OMA, but is there really the market there for a daily mainline jet? If not, then we're looking at JetExpress, which is great, but we discussed the problem with limited aircraft there earlier.

My bet is that we'll see LAX 'right-size' itself this summer and see frequencies increase, in some markets, and then F9 will start another focus operation east of DEN. That's my bet, anyway.

Too bad F9 couldn't make a go of north-south service from LAX. They'd be nuts to go up against UA/AS/WN, but it'd sure be nice to be able to do PDX-LAX easily on F9...
 
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mariner
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:12 pm

Flashmeister:

I agree about the "right sizing" of LAX. However - in the cc last week, the CEO said that of this year's (quite large) growth, 40% would be at DEN and 38% would be at LAX.

The remaining 22% will be connecting the dots between existing cities (not DEN or LAX) with some emphasis on Mexico for this.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
717-200
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:13 pm

How about RDU-LAX for F9? There has been no RDU-LAX nonstops since
Midway ended RDU-LAX at the filing of CH11 on 8/13/2001. Also RDU-DEN
would be great as well. RDU-DEN on a UAX CRJ-700 is way too long to be
on an CRJ even if it is one the larger ones!
72S 733 734 735 73G 738 742 752 763 E190 M82 M83
 
iowaman
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:17 pm

I could see MSP-CUN for F9, can an Airbus make it that far?
 
F9Fan
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 1:31 pm

I think we could see some SLC-LAX or RNO-LAX options. I wouldn't be surprised if we see some MDW-LAX, or the Florida routes (MCO, TPA, RSW, FLL). From what I understand, F9 is very pleased with the amount of traffic they are now getting from the Los Angeles market.

The problem with LAS is that HP hubs there, and WN practically hubs there, too. I don't think we will see LAS-LAX because of the extremely high number of flights on this route.

F9Fan
 
flashmeister
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:17 pm

Mariner-

I heard that quote as well. My focus city prediction is more in the 2006 horizon. Frontier has plenty enough on its plate through 2005.

717-200-

I could see RDU as a winner from DEN, but not so sure about LAX. Does anyone have the O&D numbers handy for that market?
 
airplaneboy
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 3:29 pm

Definitely...

PHX and LAS are pretty full as it is (WN and HP).

There's always the hope that LAX will receive new cities  Smile

Alphascan-
I'm working from 3-7 on Sun. Hopefully I'll finally be able to meet you this time, though I can't talk for long. Do you fly LAX-MSP regularly? Where do you live? Looking forward to meeting you.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy If I'm checking you in, I will give you the seat you want, provided that they're available! Unfortunately, I have to leave the first row open for wheelchair PAX. Anything else is fine though.  Smile

It would definitely be awesome for us to have another focus city. My original post was focused on "connecting the dots," as Mariner and MSYTristar were mentioning in another post.

Ideally, it would be cool if F9 added new cities. But of course, patience and conservative growth is what got us this far, so I'll just have to wait.  Laugh out loud

Travis/LAX
 
travisnc
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:06 pm

717-200-

I could see RDU as a winner from DEN, but not so sure about LAX. Does anyone have the O&D numbers handy for that market?


About 444 passengers/day fly RDU-LAX. 674 p/d fly from RDU-LAX/SNA/ONT/BUR. Thats more than BNA (414 LAX/668 LA metro) which has 3 daily nonstops to LAX on SW and one on AA and 1 daily nonstop to ONT on SW. I don't see any city with more O&D to LAX that doesn't already have nonstop flights there.

I'd love for anyone to fly RDU-LAX, but I'd prefer AA to F9 since RDU and LAX are focus cities for AA. Also, AA has more name recognition to RDU fliers and offers a lot more connecting opportunities beyond LAX.

As for DEN I agree that someone should fly mainline on this route. Here's another example using BNA.

To DEN:
BNA - 187 p/d - United CRJx4, Frontier A318x2
RDU - 347 p/d - United CRJx2

Something's just not right about that picture. RDU has almost twice as much O&D to DEN, but less than half the flights that BNA has.
 
nwa man
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:10 pm

I could see MSP-CUN for F9, can an Airbus make it that far?

Airbii fly transcons all the time - MSP-CUN is a snap (in fact, NW operates 319s and 320s on this route).

This is an interesting route - F9 could make it work, especially because of the combination of NW only having one daily flight (even with the hub feed) and the demand for low-fare CUN service out of MSP. If they do enter the market though, there's a great deal of low-fare competition from local charter carriers.


Regards,

N-Dub

Create your own luck.
 
LoneStarMike
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 5:47 pm

Especially like the AUS idea. About 550 passengers each way per day. AA nonstops with three flights on MD-80s, one WN nonstop. If F9 can make LAX/MSP work, this one should too.

alphascan I'm curious as to where you got the idea that 550 people travel each way per day between AUS - LAX. According to the Consumer Airfare report Table 6, during Q3 2003, which is the lastest quarter that's been reported, the AUS - LAX city pair averaged 534 passengers per day which means that about 267 people fly from LAX to AUS every day and another 267 people fly from AUS to LAX for a total of 534.

LoneStarMike

 
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ERJ170
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:23 pm

Rumors from the AA team.. but don't quote me from this cause this is 3rd hand information.. is that AA is indeed HIGHLY considering RDU-LAX flights (probably 738) .. as well as a possible RDU-CUN flight (probably 767)... but as I said, these are just considerations at this time... There will not be any new airline additions to RDU in 2004, though.. with limited gate space until the new Terminal 2 opens, it may be hard for new airlines to arrive....

Other rumors heard, but not confirmed are as follows:

F9 in RDU 2005/2006? Someone from F9 has heard this?

B6 in RDU 2006/2007 with addition of EMB190? Someone from B6 has heard this?

Possible UAL mainline service return?
Aiming High and going far..
 
MAH4546
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 6:51 pm

that AA is indeed HIGHLY considering RDU-LAX flights (probably 738) .. as well as a possible RDU-CUN flight (probably 767)...

RDU-LAX would be a daily 738 and RDU-CUN would be a Saturday 757. Though both have been talked about, they are both long shots.
a.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Thu Jun 03, 2004 7:06 pm

Dang.. then I'm sure someone will begin that operation. It is a market that isn't served that really needs to be. The coast-to-coast market is just so open.. strange no one has taken it up. NC-CA has too many ties not to be served. I'm sure one of the airlines will be AA.
Aiming High and going far..
 
alphascan
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:32 am

Mike:

My mistake. I rounded traffic number (538) up to nearest 50 and doubled it. I thought the table gave each way traffic. Thanks for the correction. Route doesn't look as good now.

Travis:

See you Sunday. I'll be on my way home. Is there an elite FF security line at Terminal 3? I keep getting stuck in 30 minute security lines at LAX going all the way downstairs to ticketing level. It's not that bad but if I could avoid the line, I would.

NWA Man:

I believe both US carrier slots are taken for MSP/CUN. NWA and Champion???
As I understand the bilateral, only two US and one Mexican carriers can serve any one city pair. Mariner is up to speed on this subject.
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
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mariner
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 1:49 am

Alphascan:

My understanding - and I could be wrong - of the bilateral is that two carriers from each country may serve any city pair between the two countries.

I believe you're right about MSP/CUN, only I thought the two carriers were NWA and Sun Country - I could be wrong again!

And even if MSP/CUN were available, I think NWA would go nuclear if Frontier tried it.

I'm much more interested in the (Mexican) routes that no one else offers, so, assuming there is to be more Mexican service, I shall be very interested in what Frontier chooses.

SLC/SJD? SLC/MZT? MCI/PVR? Who knows?  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
RaginMav
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:23 am

Yeah, how about OMA/LAX nonstop? Like Mariner said, nobody does it.

As for the demand, I don't think OMA would have any trouble supporting 1 or 2x daily in a 319.
 
jlp123
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:30 am

How about CMH-LAX, no nonstop service since America West. They would be able to draw pax from a very overpriced region. Living in Cincinnati, I frequently drive to CMH, SDF, DAY and IND to get low fares to the west coast.
 
elwood64151
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 6:39 am

I'm just not clever enough to guess which ones they'll pick.

cheers

mariner


Somehow, I doubt you have the benefit of up-to-the-minute passenger loads for F9 between its cities, either. Having that information would go a long way towards guessing new routes.

I could see MSP-CUN for F9, can an Airbus make it that far?

The distance between Minneapolis, MN and Cancun, Mexico is 1,686 miles (2,713 km).

LoneStarMike:

Where can I find the Consumer Airfare Report? That sounds like some *very* interesting reading!
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
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mariner
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:04 am

Elwood:

"...I doubt you have the benefit of up=to-the-mi nute passenger loads for F9..."

No, indeed, I don't. Which is why I am content to leave these things to the people who do.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But, as I said, here or elsewhere, it sure is a heck of a lot of fun to speculate.

Here is a version of the Consumer Affairs info. Click on a city and then click on the city pair from that city.

http://www.faremeasure.com/

There are some surprises.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
DTWINTLFLYER
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:10 am

I would love to see some more out of St. Louis. I know things are growing, I just think SW isn't adding a lot out of here recently and now would be a nice time to really beef up even more so than what F9 is doing. AA hub here but cut through the mainline flights, and most is connection or MD80. I am not a fan of siting on an MD80 all the way to LAX. Thank god recently F9 added LA.
STL to east coast would be interesting (IAD, BWI, LGA Florida cities...) Or even STL to YYZ, YUL(ok, those would be for me, I travel to Canada often)
 
DAYGS
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 8:13 am

I'm glad somebody mentioned CMH. I'm real surprized there's no nonstop service to LAX. Can't help it wonder if there's a market there. I believe HP used to fly it when they had the hub there.
 
scottysair
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 11:04 am

Can you anyone tell me about LAX need to expansion more new nonstop and when will able began new service to Florida flight?
 
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mariner
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RE: Possible New F9 Service From LAX And LAS

Fri Jun 04, 2004 12:19 pm

Scotty:

There isn't any news at the moment.

Frontier is preparing their Fall schedule now, and posters who work there think it may be published in two or three weeks.

I'm sure there'll be a thread about it when it happens.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta