adipasqu
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Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:20 pm

Read the transcript from a speech given by US Senator Patty Murray of Washington and you tell me what you think!!!

http://murray.senate.gov/news.cfm?id=221196

P.S. I know it is long, but just read it...it's very interesting.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:54 pm

Interesting read, but I get the feeling that this is one overy concerned Senator and does not reflect the true sentements of Boeing. There are internation laws in place to prevent Airbus from obtaining a grossly unfair position over Boeing, there are statues to the level of government funding they can recieve, and so forth.

I still find much of Airbus too shady and to be honest, I wouldn't ever invest in them. Airbus engineering competence aside, Airbus is concerned with image as much as they are finances. That's a risky way to run a business. If Airbus goal is to achieve market share with profit taking a back seat while Boeing maintains profitability with a smaller market share, who are you going to invest in?

Airbus blindsighted Boeing through the 80s and 90s, no doubt. This is changing, Boeing is smartening up and learning how to compete. Boeing does not need the government support Airbus recieved with projects like the A380. Boeing will be a different company when the 7E7 takes off than it was 10 even 2 years ago. The corperate culture is changing and I like what I see.
 
MMEPHX
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 12:56 pm

An interesting article, one that is likely to start the biggest A v B war ever seen on this forum....and a speech that would be expected from the Senator representing Boeing Commericials' home state.....I would expect the same from the MEP for Toulouse.

I guess the biggest problem is that Senator Murray can't cope with the fact that Boeing and Airbus are strong competitors and that Boeing no longer has the commanding lead in aviation sales it used to have in previous years, for me this has been a good thing for the traveling public as it has increased innovation between Boeing and Airbus. Senator Murray can't seem to grasp that times change. What's he going to do when he realizes most of the 7E7 is actually made in countries outside of the USA, denounce Boeing for taking American jobs overseas?

Senator Murray complains about state aid to Airbus (undoubted in earlier years but not so apparent in recent years) somehow he doesn't have time to mention the mutli billion dollar tax break given to the Aerospace industry in WA state (i.e Boeing) by the state legislature last year in the worlds worst disguised attempt to lure the 7E7 project to Seattle.

I recall it was Senator McCain who wanted the tanker deal re-evaluated, not Airbus and not because he wanted Airbus but because he calculated it would be cheaper for US taxpayers to buy the aircraft rather than lease them. In other words the US government was going to pay Boeing money it didn't need to, isn't that a subsidy only by a different name?

Lets not also forget that Boeing are hardly unblemished corporate citizens...Resignations due to contractual/financial impropriety, "stealing" a competitors proprietary information (Lockheed)...fined millions of dollars and banned from certain airforce contracts. Hardly the actions of a whiter than white hard done by company that Senator Murray seems to be painting.

As for Senator Murrays claim that Airbus are not the good US Citizen they claim because they had alleged dealings with Saddam Husseins government, I refer the Senator to the large number of US weapons/technology sold to Iraq during the Iraq/Iran war, probably a few of those had a Boeing makers stamp on them.

The world needs both Boeing and Airbus, it doesn't need Senator Murray screaming for what sounds suspiciously like protectionist policies for Boeing (the very thing he complains Airbus receive). If Boeing and Airbus spend the next 25 years getting 48-52% of the market each year then we traveling souls are in for a treat of innovations and developments.....that is unless all the airlines buy flying pencils and Embraer or Bombardier are the future world leaders in commercial aviation.



 
ualonghaul
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:05 pm

I think they are two very different companies. As DfwRevolution points out, Airbus has govt. Funded projects like the A380. Boeing may be contracted for military sales, but commercial divisions are not funded directly by govt.

I found the images of the A380 pieces coming on ship and truck to be very funny. Boeing does outsourcing some things and is figuring to outsourcing more (such as wings, etc), but it seems that Airbus had the entire plane manufactured in Germany and it will be assembled in France. Boeing and its workers take pride that most major parts are manufactured in the US.

From my vantage points, and I like both companies, it just seems that France is more concerned with force feeding Airbus down people while Boeing is sitting back and making planes like they always have. Boeing is not relying on govt grants, but playing the field and seeing what consumers (airlines) demand.

I also think that they are two largely different companies in makeup. Boeing has a huge military and phantom works departments along with the large satellite business they do. Commercial aircraft is a large aspect, but only a piece of the puzzle.

I do really think that Airbus did well with the A340-500/600. Each long segment on SQ I have taken on the aircraft was pleasurable for me. The cabin is quiet, the range is awesome. KrisWorld gets credit too........

DfwRevolution hit it on the head by saying "Airbus is concerned with image as much as they are finances". Airbus had to be first with the ultra long range aircraft ,and they have to build something bigger than the workhorse of the industry 747. It appears that Airbus tries to push Airbus as being "better" and having the biggest pax aircraft and all that jazz just to say so.

Don't get on my case for my view on Airbus, it is my opinion, I like airbus planes and will continue to fly them, I just view the business as a childish playground "mine is better" game.
 
adipasqu
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:06 pm

MMEPHX,

Excellent reply. I really can't agree with you more in general. Competition is good for all of us. I would just like to make sure that the playing field is level for everyone playing in the commercial aviation market. True and pure competition is what moves society forward with new innovations. BTW, Sen. Murray is a she (Patty).
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MMEPHX
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:16 pm

My apologies Adipasqu.....I knew Senator Murray was a lady and yet I still refered to her as a 'he'. Sorry.
 
col
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:17 pm

Fell asleep reading this garbage. He needs to get back on this planet!!
 
jwenting
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:22 pm

I think this is a reaction to the EU decision that Boeing has an unfair advantage over Airbus because they receive US government research grants under DARPA for their military division.

The exact consequences of that decision are as yet unclear but there was talk of imposing 10%+ penalties on all Boeing aircraft delivered to EU customers.

He is of course correct on every point he makes... As a European I feel the "loans" and "grants" to Airbus in my pocket.
I wish I were flying
 
DeltaGuy
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:12 pm

I think she has a very vaild point....as far as jobs, subsidies, and Airbus literally giving these planes away....the US government needs to fight fire with fire here.

DeltaGuy
"The cockpit, what is it?" "It's the little room in the front of the plane where the pilot sits, but that's not importan
 
Ken777
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:19 pm

I am one of those who believe that Airbus had a significant flow of EU cash into their bank accounts for years, never to be repaid. Sort of like the Marshall Plan after WW II, where Americans paid some very high taxes for years to rebuild Europe - never to be repaid.

The one thing that seems to hit me the hardest is the fact that this speech came just after Memorial Day in the US. It seems that the French really never gave a damn that there are over 60,000 American men and women buried in Military Cemeteries in France and they never will.

I think that it is time for Boeing to be hit with the 10% penalty and then the US to match that and more - like start asking for the money France and Germany received under the Marshall Plan to be repaid with interest.

There is a difference between honestly and vigorously competing on price and product and some of the approaches, like bribes, landing rights, etc. that were mentioned.
 
trevd
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 2:39 pm

No question that Sen. Murray is carrying water for one of the largest employers in her state, but she does raise a lot of good points.

Whereas Boeing must go to commercial markets to finance new projects; Airbus receives huge amounts of both Direct and In-Direct aid. The Direct part is the only piece that is "regulated". The in-direct part comes from aid at the local level, such as the city of Hamburg dredging a harbor so Airbus can barge in components, or other municipalities paying for infrastructure improvements so A380 components may be trucked in.

And no offense but that old argument that 'Boeing is financed by Government / DARPA / Military / Other various US agencies with black helicopters' doesn't wash. In fact, for most years, Boeing commercial was subsidizing the military and space divisions.

In fact, you can even make the argument that Airbus has benefited from US government investment - check the airfoil design on the A300/A310 and you will find a NACA designation.

In general, I believe Sen. Murray raises a lot of important points. And if we continue to see the same unfair subsidies in aircraft development programs and continued political intrigue from the EU in Airbus sales campaigns (Malaysia, India, etc...) I would not be surprised to see more and more support for US industry and Boeing in particular against these kinds of unfair practices.
 
AeroOzzie
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:24 pm

"Boeing does outsourcing some things and is figuring to outsourcing more (such as wings, etc), but it seems that Airbus had the entire plane manufactured in Germany and it will be assembled in France. Boeing and its workers take pride that most major parts are manufactured in the US."

Um...so? Airbus is not a French company, it's a European company, 37.5% French, 37.5% German, and the rest Italian, British, Spanish...why would it seem strange that parts are manufactured in Germany, and then assembled in France?

Cheers

AeroOzzie
 
Guest

RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:29 pm

Airbus had a European philosophy: a product that is produced from a continent, not a country. That is why different parts are produced in different countries/towns and travel to one place to be put together to an aircraft (like Wooster models). With the 380 there will be some problems, I think. Big parts have to travel around Europe, but I think this problems will be solved.

It's a european product!


About "fairness" in competition: it's an old story and is getting bored. A gets money from governments as US government spends money for US products, B gets money from government for their military products.
I prefer that our government spends money for civil products.

And don't forget: US government supports B with spying when airlines are about to buy A products.
 
ua777222
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:46 pm

It's not fair at all to say that this is an A vs. B kinda thing. So what Airbus might be schooling Boeing in orders but if Boeing's commercial Aircraft manufacturing were to go away Boeing would still be a VERY large company.

It's really hard to tell if it's fair or not. I can sure as hell say that they are both 3rd graders playing in a sandbox. They are both so well off it's not even funny. They both have very loyal buyers and won't have to worry THAT much about orders and other such matters.

I think it becomes an issue between the two makers when each other steps on the other guys "turf". The A380 7E7 (copycat..), cheap fights, it's all just a mission to see who's the bigger guy. Again, they are both SO well off its nothing to worry about.

UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
Alessandro
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:53 pm

UALongHaul and Deltaguy, I believe you when El Al sell all their Boeings and buy something else.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Scorpio
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:18 pm

UALonghaul,

I found the images of the A380 pieces coming on ship and truck to be very funny.

May I ask why exactly?
 
worldoftui
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:23 pm

and Airbus literally giving these planes away..

DeltaGuy

Didn't Boeing literally give away the 737-800's to Ryanair? Just as I am sure that Airbus gave an excellent deal to JetBlue.
Buyers market at the moment. But it is not a one-sided issue.

Mark
 
Alessandro
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:30 pm

She´s a funny lady, "only two companies of large passenger planes"?
So Beriev, Embraer, Iljyusin, Tupolev and Yakolev don´t make passenger planes with +100 passenger?
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
Gman94
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:54 pm

Sounds like the rantings of a mad woman. Airbus sole goal is not to destroy Boeing in some medieval crusade.

I have no sympathy with her argument that Airbus is putting creating jobs before profit, I just wish that more companies could be more socially conscious like that. To me a companies priorities should be it's staff and customers not fat cat shareholders. Also why is she not complaining about Boeing outsourcing work to countries like Japan which obviously has an impact on the US jobs market.

If what it was the case that Airbus, EADS or the European governments were influencing airlines to buy Airbus products then every airline in Europe would have all Airbus fleets, but this is not the case.

There are also plenty of examples of airlines just buying Boeing products such as EL-AL and most of the airlines in Japan, who seem to not even consider buying Airbus aircraft regardless of whether it makes economic sense for them or not.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
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sebolino
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:23 pm

Again ??

And one more time, you see stupid guys talking about the war and the Marshall plan. I wonder when they will be able to stand European competition.

I have participated in numerous of these threads, and already gave the links to articles and opinions about the hidden subsidies given to Boeing (Tax reductions, state investments for the jobs ...) and the agreement about the loans given to Airbus.

The companies are real competitors and it's why some Boeing fan are so angry. If it was not a fair competition, Airbus planes would be banned in the USA, and fined by International Trade Organization (is it the real name ?).

[Edited 2004-06-05 15:24:24]
 
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sebolino
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:52 pm

Wow. I read it, this woman is sick !

The last sentence is enough to understand what she really want and why she is so active:

Let’s make sure Americans are leading it one hundred years from now.
 
NightFlier
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:31 pm

I always find myself looking at these conversations and thinking, what would happen if Boeing and Airbus merged? In the end I think these too companies are just trying to do there job and build safe,economic,and comfortable airplanes. There is no need to start a war in the aviation industry over this matter, we already have enough wars going on in the world. It really does not matter to most passengers what kind of plane they are flying, unless your a aviation nut like us. We must look to keep the passengers and customers happy, because with out them we will not be able to carry on.
Airplanes are only as good as the people who fly&fix them.
 
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sebolino
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:15 am

Right NightFlier.

And I would add that if all that was true, that is if Europe's goal was to sink Boeing by lowering the prices, I don't see why Boeing would still sell planes.
 
garnetpalmetto
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:35 am

NightFlier - the problem with the merger of the two largest aircraft manufacturers innovation occurs through competition. By having to constantly stay one step ahead of their competitor in order to provide differentiation between products and some advantage over the other's product, innovations occur. Yes, if Boeing and Airbus were to merge you'd still have the Russian manufacturers, but would they really be able to match the financial might of a Boebus corporation? Doubtful. Thus, for all intents and purposes, there'd be monopoly, which leads to stagnation, which is anathema for an indusrty as dynamic as the aerospace industry.
South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
 
NightFlier
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:50 am

Garnetpalmetto- You are right I don't think other aircraft manufactures would be able to keep up with Boeing & Airbus if they merged. But what if just once Boeing & Airbus said lets make a plane together, What do you think it would look like? And would anybody buy it?. In reality who really does make a better airplane, Boeing or Airbus? I like them both so Im a bit lost for words. NF  Smile
Airplanes are only as good as the people who fly&fix them.
 
Scorpio
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:47 am

Nightflier,

But what if just once Boeing & Airbus said lets make a plane together, What do you think it would look like? And would anybody buy it?.

Actually, in the 90s both companies did join forces to design, and later produce, a super jumbo aircraft. The effort never materialised, as both companies decided to pursue their own designs (747-X and A3XX).
 
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solnabo
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:16 am

Such a bitter old lady, she cant stand to see Boeing loose their superiority to Europe.
Its about time that another company gets the "crown" after 50 years in the jetage.....I´m just warming up now  Big grin

Mike//SE  Big thumbs up
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
GDB
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:12 am

Could one day Boeing and Airbus make an airliner? Assuming a collaborative project, not a merger between the 2 companies?
Yes, if and when it becomes commercially and environmentally viable, they could and probably would to build a SST, probably not for 20 years though.

As to the topic, MMEPHX summed it up rationally and fairly.
 
dl021
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:25 am

The competition between Boeing and Airbus has been as dirty as every other competition between major industrial players... I don't know if the Europeans have to work under the shadow of their own Foreign Corrupt Practices Act but it does limit what American executives are willing to do as they usually don't want to risk jail (ask the Lockheed guys).

Didn't Boeing literally give away the 737-800's to Ryanair?
No, RyanAir had already negotiated a price when the bottom fell out of the rest of the market, and they went back, took advantage, and renegotiated a deal for themselves threateneing to renege and place an order with Airbus. O'Leary seemed to be very proud of this when he later announced his actions. The original deal allowed Boeing to make a little money, the second deal allowed them to keep producing the airplanes they planned on producing. It was something of a Pyrrhic victory.

I have no sympathy with her argument that Airbus is putting creating jobs before profit, I just wish that more companies could be more socially conscious like that. To me a companies priorities should be it's staff and customers not fat cat shareholders.
OK, then who should be responsible for taking the risks inherent in creating, building and selling new products. The corporations have to make profits in order to continue to advance in the market or they will be left behind. Look at Boeing's development lag. Imagine if they cut the prices on everything and were just able to pay for the people who currently have jobs...they would be left behind when someone willing to risk the money created a better product that better served the users' needs. There has to be profit to motivate people to take risks....entities that you describe could not take these kind of risks because their employees would not allow it as they may be hurt. A well run company will take good care of its employees, both financially and motivationally, but it cannot place the employees ahead of profits for very long, or it will stagnate. The correct balance will forever be argued over, and some people will always feel left out and put upon... My answer to them will always be as follows...Do what Boeing does...convince people to take a risk on you with their money (usually their retirement funds) and go to work. You will discover that you seeking opportunity will provide opportunity to others.

and to all you guys talking about Russian airliners...I love the fact that they are still making planes..I get excited when I see a TU-204 in Paris...the problem is that the airlines in their own country would not buy them except for price, and practically nobody outside of the CIS will buy them. Until the Tupolev and Illyushin (the only big passenger jet makers in Russia I can think of) can start to meet schedules and offer products that match what B and A produce, they will continue to be relegated to a very distant third place in this race.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Vorticity
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:44 am

I wasn't going to stick my head in this one, but oh well...

A well run company should maintain profit, and should also try it's best to take care of it's employees. Unfortunately business is a beast, and you sometimes can't do both. All companies try to walk the tight rope, Boeing is trying it as well.

You need good employees to make good products, you also need money if you want to do any kind of research and development. Now that Boeing contains over half a dozen business units (Commerical Airplanes, Phantom Works, Integrated Defense Systems, Connexion by Boeing, Boeing Capital, Shared Service Group, Air Traffic Management as well as many subsidiares and partnerships) it's a complex company.

Boeing has tried to create it's own lifeboat by linking up several related industries. If certain parts of Boeing are in a downturn, other parts will help the company survive. There are many complex companies that will diversify themselves to help survive cyclic markets. Right now Commerical Aviation and Satellites are weak... but Satellite Systems is looking to make profit again in the next few years, and Aviation will have it's upswing.

I'm not sure if they competition is fair or not, but Boeing and Airbus are different companies, organized differently.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
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solnabo
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:24 am

Why doesn´t Boeing merge with Lockheed/Martin and make the Sonic Cruiser flying at (least) M 4,0.......thats something to nibble on, right?  Insane

Micke//SE  Big thumbs up
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
dl021
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:40 am

Nah, if they are going to team up (not unprecedented..F-22) they need to build a superlarge BWB aircraft that will carry 1000 pax, AND a widebody (7E7 size) SST using supercruise and borrowing the quiet supersonic tech from NorthropGrumman (and see if LEHPRON has worked his ideas out yet!).
Now THAT would set Airbus into a fit.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Vorticity
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:38 am

Would have been simpler before Boeing merged with McDonnell Douglas. I'm getting the feeling people don't want any more merging in the US Aerospace Industry. It was rumored there was interest in grabbing Northrup Grumman, but people were told hands off.

Fortunately  Smile they don't have to merge to work together. NG is a subcontractor quite often to both LM and Boeing. LM and Boeing own a joint venture called United Space Alliance that does shuttle work. As Dl021 said they are partners on F22.

... but it's probably just a dream right now... too bad.

(random thought, if they merged, you could take Skunk Works and Phantom Works, and create Phantom Skunk Works! yah)
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
magyar
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:47 am

I really liked her comments about ''the Europeans
pressuring the East-Europeans'' to buy Airbus. It's
like my left arm is pressuring my right arm to scratch
my ears!
 
kaligrafy
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:50 am

Do you think it would be possible to create a third big plane manufacturer? Like if Bombardier and Embraer merge to build bigger aircrafts? How much money would they need to get started?
Never forget Earth
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:50 pm

Kaligrafy - it may even eventuate that Embraer or Bombardier become big manufacturers in the 100+ seat area without merging. Embraer is actively developing a 110 seater (the 195) and Bombardier is apparently looking at that market too. In the future, they may well start building even bigger aircraft.

It may also be possible (though admittedly unlikely) that the Russians get their affairs in order and we see Russian built aircraft as a viable alternative to Airbus and Boeing.

This is getting horribly off track for this thread - perhaps you should start your own one about possible 'alternative' manufacturers?

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
tungd
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:04 pm

In response to the original post regarding Senator Murray's remarks:

Her remarks are PURELY political in nature. If Airbus was one of the largest employers in Washington State, the speech would be the same; just substitute "Airbus" for "Boeing."

As a politician, the senator's main concern is satisfying the workers (i.e. voters) of her state, the people who can re-elect her.

Please don't fall into the trap of taking seriously everything that is uttered by politicians; on the national level, at least, they're all the same no matter what party they are affiliated with.

When, and if, a foreign company threatens Microsoft's dominance, expect the same response.
 
AeroOzzie
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:17 pm

I think it's almost inevitable that the Japanese (who have the engineering capacity, if not the fortitude and ability) and Chinese (and maybe even the Indians) will want to get involved in the commercial aircraft business, especially as the Chinese and Indian economies continue to expand so quickly.

Cheers

AeroOzzie
 
dl021
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:28 pm

oz go see the thread on boeing and jaan cooperating too much....same ideas put forward, id like more input. and do not ever doubt the fortitude of the japanese people.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Alessandro
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:23 pm

DI021, I don´t think Tupolev nor Illjysin makes inferior products compared with
A & B, problems are others, leasing deals and infrastructure. Both A&B can
offer global maintaince service something T&I aren´t able to offer to the same
degree.
But I think both T&I can sell aircrafts to other countries like Iran and continents like Africa.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:30 pm

If this is a world full of free trade...then nothing is fair. (Ever heard the phrase "Its not fair!!" Well...life is not fair..) If its regulated, then thats something different, there would be rules to follow.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
dl021
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RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:42 am

Alessandro....I am not impugning the ability of Russians to make fine aircraft. It has always been the timely delivery and follow-up maintenance and spare parts issues that have plagued their customers.

They have sold some small regional airliners to Iran, and used to sell their airliners to client states when they were the CCCP.

Even now Aeroflot is looking west for airplanes due to the difficulties associated with Russian aircraft operations. They work and run forever, often in poor environments that would ground western airliners, much like their military aircraft, if they can get the support and engines of the same quality and fuel efficiency they will be more able to compete.
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
nudelhirsch
Posts: 1371
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 6:20 am

RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:31 am

It is the old battle between the old and the new world...
Boeing has long been leading te market of commercial airliners which is ok, but what is wrong about having an equivalent competitor on the market?
Boeing has received governmental aid in different forms, as well as Airbus, why not.
Airbus is a konsortium of several European companies, and it is only natural and normal and actually important, that European governments and a common European government step in to enforce Airbus in Europe, especially as many contries and companies are involved in the production process.
If American citizens are unhappy with that, write to Your Congressmen.
It definitively not up to a.net users to decide about taxes, financial aid, and so on. If Airbus gets financial aid and Boeing doesn't (just in theory), is that Airbus' fault? Not really.
Both companies make great aircrafts, competition is healthy and it sure hurts to see market shares decrease, that is part of this thing called competition.
As long as Boeing is happy with profit and everything, fine for them. If Airbus is happier with larger market shares, fine for them.
I can understand some Airbus criticism, as it is a network of different companies in different countries, so it easy to hide financial aid and everything, but I am happy that Airbus creates many jobs in my homecountry Germany and that we got the task of many delivery jobs in the Hamburg plant.
I personally am happy, that this competition exists, that I can fly on good airliners all the time and that both manufacterers have good engineers, because I didn't have any problem on any airliner...

Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
BWIA 772
Posts: 1613
Joined: Sun May 12, 2002 2:33 am

RE: Is Competition Between Airbus And Boeing Fair?

Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:34 pm

Whether or not competition is fair or not Boeing was still able to make history with the 737NG having reached the 1500 delivered mark in the shortest time in all the aircraft series to reach this mark.

I would say that i was worried that the commerical division seemed to be out of steam with the now shelved 747X and Sonic Crusier design. But the launch of the 7e7 Dreamliner is step in the right direction and if the aircraft follows in the steps of the 777 Airbus will have some catching up to do in this large market.
Eagles Soar!

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