Ejazz
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Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:28 pm

Had heard various rumblings about this but it appears to be now confirmed. Apparent loss of engine oil pressure during the delivery flight of AFs B777-300ER and engine had to be shut down. Flight continued to Paris on the one remaining engine. Not a good start.

Luckily we have an AF Captain on A.Net who when time permits will provide more details to those interested.



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ualonghaul
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:31 pm

ETOPS = Important

How far out of Paris was the engine shut down?

What if that plane had to land before reaching Paris? That would be be a huge kick in the face for GE I would think (if GE are aboard that plane even......) I just got through watching the project manager of the 777 200LR and 300ER talk about how engine reliability isnt really an issue anymore, the engines are super reliable on boeing.com last night. Spoke a little too soon.

[Edited 2004-06-05 09:39:44]
 
9v-svc
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flig

Sat Jun 05, 2004 4:57 pm

Well new planes tend to have initial problems just like the A346. She will run fine after sometime.
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
ualonghaul
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:00 pm

That plane has been in testing for ages. The engines have hundreds of hours already. Sounds like one blew out a seal and leaked oil (the loss of preassure). That is not something you expect to happen to a new engine. That happens to old engines when they are old and need new gaskets. I will be interested to hear the exact cause of what happened.
 
L-188
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:54 pm

UALongHaul

I ran across a former RV flight engineer at the laundry the other day and we got to start talking about the old days at that airline.

Anyway something he and I both noted was that every time one of the aircraft got out of overhaul that was when something was going to break, by the time the plane was ready to go back to the shop, all the bugs had been worked out.

If I had a choice to ride in an airplane just about ready to go into maintaince, or a new build one, or one comming out of the shop, the choice is to get in the one that is almost due to go back in.

Somebody else has test flown it already to make sure the builders/maintaince guys have done their job.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
artsyman
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:38 pm

Oddly enough the exact same thing happened on the proving flight at Continental for the 777. They had to shut down and divert out in Asia, although the engine was fine and it was just a faulty reading. I am not sure if this is the case on the AF flight.

That said, to suggest that the 777 should not be considered as having problems like the A346 is a bit of a stretch. The A346 while now smoothing out, had problems for over two years, we are talking one flight here.
 
ua777222
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:49 pm

Let's not turn this into an A vs. B post!

There just seems to be this kind of luck for a/c and airlines. UA had one of their 777's (during some big deal) lose pressure and had to drop to a low level and crack the doors (?) not too sure exactly. Nothing AF should be losing sleep over.

UA777222
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Ruscoe
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:22 pm

When taxying for a demo to south African, one engine had to be shut down. They subsequently orderd Airbus.

Ironic how this happens at the worst possible time.

Ruscoe
 
backfire
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 9:37 pm

If it happened, then why is Air France's official spokeswoman telling the media that there was no such incident at all?

And it's not a misunderstanding - AF has categorically denied it.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flig

Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:25 pm

ETOPS = Important

How far out of Paris was the engine shut down?


Given that the 773ER can run for 5.5 hours on one engine, they could complete the flight had it failed just out of JFK  Big grin

(if GE are aboard that plane even......)

Well it's obviously a GE90-115. The question is, did it shut down or not? Air France says no and I can't find anything saying otherwise. Where did this rumor start?
 
L-188
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:38 pm

Well then, is it a problem with the airplane or the engine?

When I took my truck in for it's first servce the dealer's bay was full of F-350 diesels that where having gasket problems. The cold weather on those new trucks was causing all sorts of problems.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
NightFlier
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:16 pm

Well what ever happen if it happen this is just another prime example of how reliable the 777 is, glad everything was ok.  Smile
Airplanes are only as good as the people who fly&fix them.
 
backfire
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:54 pm

this is just another prime example of how reliable the 777 is


The 777 is perfectly reliable, it's the dodgy engines you gotta look out for.  Big grin
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:09 am

they could complete the flight had it failed just out of JFK

...and then be thrown in jail for doing so  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:23 am

I guess it's a little more significant since it's a brand new type of airplane, but people, do you realize how many precautionary in flight shut downs occur in the world every day??? Typical media blowing things way out of proportion.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:31 am

I don't think this came from the media. I just checked PRRuNe. Two guys said it didn't happen on the delivery flight. One guy was more specific said it happened during a production flight test of the said AF aircraft and was reported to FAA as part of the normal incidnet reporting process.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:46 am

Given that the 773ER can run for 5.5 hours on one engine, they could complete the flight had it failed just out of JFK

Whilst that may be true, I don't think the 773ER is certified to do it. Judging by CB's last post, he agrees!
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flig

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:29 am

Whilst that may be true, I don't think the 773ER is certified to do it. Judging by CB's last post, he agrees!

Yes I am well aware... thats what the "  Big grin " was for...
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:32 am

One guy was more specific said it happened during a production flight test of the said AF aircraft and was reported to FAA as part of the normal incidnet reporting process.

Well, there you go!
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:33 am

"773ER can run for 5 ½ hours on one engine"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I was on that plane to €urope, I would scream GO BACK TO JFK!!
Am I the only one thinking this??

Mike//SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flig

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:46 am

"773ER can run for 5 ½ hours on one engine"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If I was on that plane to €urope, I would scream GO BACK TO JFK!!
Am I the only one thinking this??


Well if you are intending to opperate at ETOPS 330 then you obviously must be capable of flying 5.5 hours under one engine. The 773ER has done it before during certification as part of the 220 hours of ETOPS testing Boeing performed.

Of course, the flight crew would divert to the first available airport. If they had just departed JFK of course they would return. Besides JFK-CDG is a lot longer than 5 hours...
 
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solnabo
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:50 am

Who said CDG? It could be Reykavik/ Iceland!
jjeeeehhhhhhh.......
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FlySSC
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:32 am

If it happend during the delivery flight, the plane was en route SEA-CDG... I don't think Boeing delivers its a/c from JFK...  Laugh out loud

Anyway, engine shutdown happens everyday and various problems, more or less serious, can lead a Crew to a shutdown.

AF's B772ER knew two serious incident of this type :
The first one happened just a few weeks after this a/c started operations, on the route GRU-CDG. This was quite serious and the a/c diverted to LPA.

The second incident happened last year in November on a flight CDG-GIG, and the aircraft diverted to Fortaleza.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:03 am

Am I the only one thinking this??

you... thinking???


'nuff said  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
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solnabo
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:16 am

You´re such a nice a-h, C-boy!
jeeehhhh......again  Big grin
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
squad55
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:20 am

If it happend during the delivery flight, the plane was en route SEA-CDG... I don't think Boeing delivers its a/c from JFK...

I don't think boeing delivers its a/c from SEA either. It would of come from BFI or PAE.
 
aviationwiz
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flig

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:49 am

Since it was a 777, then it would be from PAE, but I've heard of planes on their delivery flights stopping elsewhere, such as at JFK, but that would not be necessary from PAE-CDG. PAE is the wide-body's, 747/767/777, & BFI is the narrow-body's, 717/737/757.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
ualonghaul
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:50 am

So this did not happen on the delivery flight but on an earlier test flight?

Anyone have a clear answer that is fact and not speculation?
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:01 am

Artsyman,
contrary to what you seem willing to suggest, the A340-600 does not have more problems than the B777, it is just that some people keep on discussing a handful of incindents and link them up to find 'worrying deficiencies'.
If these people would demonstrate the same skepticism towards the B777 as they do towards the A340-600, I wouldn't mind at all, after all: factual discussion is OK, but let's level the playing ground then, but not so surprisingly they don't do so. When equally uneventful incidents happen to the B777, all of a sudden these very skeptical observers talk about how typical it is for the media to blow things way out of proportion and even go as far as saying these are normal incidents which happen on daily basis. Am I the only one feeling they would probably not have said that if it would have been the A340-600?

I know there is nothing wrong with the B777 and its engines, so even if it has suffered some very painful incidents like the engine failure during the demonstration flight to SAA in Jo'burg, I do not feel the need to bring comments like: 'On the B777 they regularly have to shut down an engine, even on high profile flights, so there must be something wrong', start discussions like: 'Why is the B777 still ETOPS certified after so many engine failures?' or call the B777 the DC-6 of the 21st century, because just like on the latter, you always know how many engines you have on take-off but you can never say for sure how many you will have upon landing. See how easy it is?





[Edited 2004-06-06 00:04:07]
 
dynkrisolo
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:01 am


Anyone have a clear answer that is fact and not speculation?


A third person on PPRuNe confirmed it again. The incident resulted in three-day delay of the aircraft delivery to Air France. With this kind of detail, I doubt it's a speculation. No one on PPRuNe has disputed the three persons who said it was before the delivery flight. Even the person who said that it was on a delivery flight earlier admitted that he didn't get all the facts right.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:21 am

It's what production test flights are for. To sort out the problems. Shows that the system works.

Ruscoe
 
jc2354
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:22 am

It seems, to me, that the 777 did what it was designed to do under these circumstances. It continued its flight with one engine until it landed.

Regards,
Jack
If not now, then when?
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:57 am

At what speed would a B773ER or any other B777 for that matter, cruise with only one engine running?

I'd think almost half the normal cruising speed and even with ETOPS330 it would only cruise half of the normal cruising speed and thus for example the closest diversion is 2 hours off at say M.84 it could take up to 4 hrs to complete that? no?

Thanks.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 8:52 am

Airbus Lover,
The lower airspeed is taken into account as well as lower level etc, in calculating ETOPS.

Ruscoe
 
av757
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:17 am

The main difference between the boeing 777 is that it has met and surpassed its design goals and reliabilty with flying colors; and the Airbus 340-500/600 being a great airplane fell short of its promised design goals and reliability and after 2 years in service is still having problems meeting them.

Even with this inflight engine shutdown of a 777, the ETOPS reliabilty is still much better for twins than quad engine jets crossing the Atlantic or the
Pacific caused by inflight engine shutdowns.

AV757
 
MoodyBlues
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:33 am

Granted I am speaking from experience on much lower tech machinery than 777s and GE High-Bypass turbo fans, but, as a general rule, if a mechanical system is going to fail, it will normally happen very quickly.

What I mean is, when you build an engine, which is by it's nature, a complex object, you have to take into account that there are a lot of parts (which have to be fabricated, machined, built, etc) and then those parts have to be assembled into a final working unit. There a lot of places for something to go wrong, be it a defect in materials. A problem w/ the machine fabricating a part, or assembling the final product. An assembly line worker who was out late drinking the night before (Scary thought, isn't it)

Due to this, when you put all this stuff together, and power it up, anything that is wrong will generally manifest itself very quickly. In this example, a loss of oil pressure, it could be a gasket or oil seal that was manufactured incorrectly, or installed wrong, or a flange seal that the bolts weren't tightened right (correct torque is very important!)

How often does it happen? Not very, mass production is an amazing thing. But mistakes do happen. Face it, somewhere a human had to be involved in building that engine, and humans make mistakes. It's called "being human"

That's why you test run things. And why manufacturers provide "limited warranties." When I fix a machine at my shop, I don't just return it to the customer. I run it, and make sure everything is ok. And sometimes, guess what, I made a mistake. So I fix it, and then return the machine to it's owner.

It's not a big deal. I'm sure GE has a warranty  Big grin on their engines. Fix it, test it, deliver it. Happens every day.
Southwest Airlines "A Symbol of Freedom"
 
N79969
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:33 am

Ruscoe is correct. Following an in-flight shutdown, a two engine airplane will have a more significant reduction in airspeed and altitude than a three or four engine airplane. And of course the lower the altitude, the higher the air density and thus resistance. As Ruscoe stated, the diversion time calculations must take these performance changes into account.
 
MoodyBlues
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:44 am

Knew there was something else I meant to mention.

If someone _knows_ and could tell us as far as it relates to airplanes.

But I know with boats, 2 engines does not mean twice the speed.

An example, our sailboat, a catamaran (2 hulls) has 2 engines.

Cruising speed with one engine running 4 knots
Cruising speed with both engines running 6 knots


My father (a former design engineer w/ Ford of Europe) was also a volunteer with the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institution, a volunteer see rescue organization the patrols the cost of the United Kingdom) The boat he volunteered on was a high performance rigid inflatable, with 2 outboard motors. I asked him what happened if they lost an engine. He said it slowed them down, but they could still operate.

Probably got something to do with resistance to movement, etc. Think about it, it takes a lot more energy to drive your car at 80mph than it does at 40mph
Southwest Airlines "A Symbol of Freedom"
 
artsyman
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:47 am

'Why is the B777 still ETOPS certified after so many engine failures?'
***

the 777 has the lowest influght shutdown rae of any engine flying commercial service. The GE90 has the lowest of the 777's and despite what was said above, it is not speculation about the A346, it is officially documented that airlines were having troubles with the 346.

j
 
Airbus Lover
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 11:03 am

Thanks for the info.

So lets say at ETOPS330, what is the distance it can cover then?

Certainly much less (almost propotionally?) than twin engine ops can cover right?
 
N79969
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:47 pm

I think ETOPS 330 would open routes over Antaractica. There are not many airlines that would need such capability at the moment.
 
Ken777
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:14 pm

One of the only two times I have been on a flight encountering engine failure was on a QF 747 (SYD-LAX) when a warning light came on just after takeoff indicating a fire in #3. The captain punched the bottle and turned for an immediate landing in SYD. Turned out that there was no fire, but a fault in the warning system and we departed after 5 hours of checking things out.

The other time was on an AA Super 80, DFW-LAX more than a few years ago. There was a noise in the engine and the guy next to me (a mechanic at AA) said it sounded like the engine "threw a bucket". Suggested the FA to give the Captain his opinion and we landed at the closest airport.

50% in my (very limited) experience was a real problem and the other half was related to some rather sophisticated warning systems. I would bet any amount up to $1 that this is the general distribution in the majority of engine "problems"
 
mark777300
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:12 pm

I still have yet to read about this engine shut-down anywhere. So I'm curious as to where this information was gathered. If it happened during the testing face, well duh! Thats usually when things happens and the problems are ironed out. and why and when did the A346 become a topic when disscussing an engine shut down on a 773ER?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:58 am

I think ETOPS 330 would open routes over Antaractica

Actually, that's the only place it wouldn't open up


But since far less than 1% of the world's scheduled flights utilize transantarctic routings, it'd be of negligible consequence to twinjets and their operators.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
jeffrito
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flig

Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:33 am

... 777 has suffered some very painful incidents like the engine failure during the demonstration flight to SAA in Jo'burg ...

How come SAA gets so many embarrassing incidents?:

http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=184923

I guess these escape slides have been spontaneously deploying in flight!?  Nuts
 
na
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flig

Mon Jun 07, 2004 6:04 pm

ETOPS yes or no, statistics yes or no, I would be very afraid on a twin losing one engine over the middle of the Ocean. The 777 as great as it may be is still new. I prefer the 744 and A340s anytime.

I know how panicked faces of passengers look like who were on board one engined twinjet-widebodies.
 
Northwest717
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Mon Jun 07, 2004 9:00 pm

My view on it is that, OK, it is over and done with people. No reason for A346 comparisons that are likely to get some people all fired up. The only thing that matters is that it is still a great aircraft, and the airframe and people aboard are safe! That is all. Just my $.02.

-Tim
Dubai: Center of the 21st Century
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flig

Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:34 pm

The 777 as great as it may be is still new.

Still new ?!?  Nuts

As of today, the 777 has been in service exactly 8 years. And for the past 8 years, the 777 has been flying under ETOPS certification. The 777 isn't a baby anymore, in fact, it's getting close to the double-digits. Not to mention, the millions of hours of passenger service the 777 has accrued.

The 777 is Boeing's second generation of ETOPS aircraft, was the first aircraft to recieve ETOPS certification at EOS, and until the SIN-LAX run, the longest route in the world (ERW-HKG) was served by a 777. Fear in twin-engine aircraft is misplaced and childish...
 
Guest

RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:38 pm

The main difference between the boeing 777 is that it has met and surpassed its design goals and reliabilty with flying colors; and the Airbus 340-500/600 being a great airplane fell short of its promised design goals and reliability and after 2 years in service is still having problems meeting them.

What, from what i have read the fuel consumption is as expected, though DR has been a problem.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Engine Shutdown On AF B777-300ER Delivery Flight.

Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:10 am

I know how panicked faces of passengers look like who were on board one engined twinjet-widebodies.

Bullshit  Insane

Pax almost never even realize an engine has been shut down (on any aircraft) until advised... which is typically done as the diversion is already in progress. Once they do, their reaction is always the same no matter what the aircraft. Hate to break this to you, but overwhelming majority of passengers have no idea that a 4-engined aircraft is still capable of steady flight with one engine out either.



As of today, the 777 has been in service exactly 8 years

...you mean 9? (June 7, 1995)  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!

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