SInGAPORE_AIR
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SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:30 pm

Singapore Airlines Limited - A Member of Star Alliance - will order within 2 months, 50 aircraft - a mixture of firm orders and options.

However...

"Boeing is offering it (the 7E7) as one of their candidate aircraft. But of course that aircraft is not deliverable until 2008 whereas we intend to have first delivery ... around 2006 or 2007," said Mr. Chew Choon Seng, CEO of the Airline.

Analysts say that the Airline is extensively courted by plane makers as it operates a relatively young fleet of aircraft, and its purchasing decisions can prompt other carriers to match its lead.

"The numbers are still under development, I should say, but we are looking at least at in order of 50 aircraft, but that would include both firm (orders) as well as options."

Information from:

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/040605/5/1iwcw.html
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/040605/3/1iwd7.html
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/040605/ap/d830nv200.html
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
ChrisZRH
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:11 pm

7E7 would look stunning in SQ colors, i really hope they also think about the A330, regarding the pilots, which can fly A330/340, what about A380?
Christian Galliker - AirTeamImages
 
VirginFlyer
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:23 pm

Don't forget Air New Zealand said the same thing regarding the 7E7 and delivery, but went ahead and ordered them anyway (along with 777s which will arrive earlier). Perhaps the same thing will happen with Singapore.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
AeroOzzie
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:10 pm

Maybe Boeing will provide an interim (767s or A322s) solution as a go-between until the 7E7s can be delivered...

Cheers

AeroOzzie
 
flying-b773
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:24 pm

i think SQ have ENOUGH B777, hope they go for smaller aircrafts like the B767 and A330 family to give them more flexibility in the routes that they fly in. since they already had large aircrafts and more 777s on order, really hope for some 'smaller' surprises.......
 
manni
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 7:58 pm

A couple more A380's perhaps, maybe a freighter version.  Smile
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Hamlet69
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:22 pm

Manni,

Possible, but all indications are that SQ is not looking that big at the moment. For this order, two segments are being looked at: 777-300ER/A340-600, and 7E7/A330-200.

Personally, I don't see any chance for the A330-200 to win this order. SQ have already rejected it in two seperate tenders. The liklihood they would suddenly order it now is virtually nil. OTOH, with the A340-500 already in the fleet, a -600 order is entirely possible. Then again, I've heard from three different sources that SQ have determined the 777-300ER is the better aircraft, from a operations viewpoint, to begin replacing the 747-400 pax. fleet.

Time will tell.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
kaitak
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:36 pm

This announcement will certainly come as a disappointment to Boeing, which had been counting on SQ as a launch customer for the 7E7. It does open the door a little wider for the 332,but enough for a deal,I'm not sure.

Despite what SQ says, I think SQ will ultimately judge that the 7E7 is theright size for them and that it's worth the wait. I also expect a 773ER order. However, Airbus will want to recussitate the 346 and will be equally anxious to place the 346 with SIA. This willbe a very interesting competition.
 
9v-svc
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:37 pm

Well Airbus has offered the A332 lite, I don't rule out the A332 lite to win SQ's order. As for long haul, it's very difficult to say.
Airliners is the wings of my life.
 
FJWH
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:18 pm

The links (between brackets!!):

http://asia.news.yahoo.com/040605/5/1iwcw.html
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/040605/3/1iwd7.html
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/040605/ap/d830nv200.html

How many plane's and what type does SQ have now?

Thanks,

FJWH
FlightS in the next 3 months: MSP, PHX, MEM, NCE, TFS, BCN. All round trips from AMS
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 10:59 pm

This announcement will certainly come as a disappointment to Boeing, which had been counting on SQ as a launch customer for the 7E7

Indeed, this appears to be shaping into one of the most important orders of 2004. Boeing wants to reach the 200 orders it is predicting for the 7E7 as well as secure another 773ER and possibly 772LR customer. Airbus knows its image as at stake here- the A330 just lost its first order battle with the 7E7 and SIA could drop the A340 for 777s. Airlines are taking notes, and we all know how much Airbus cares about image.

Well Airbus has offered the A332 lite, I don't rule out the A332 lite to win SQ's order

The only thing working in the A330's favor is time. This may become a reoccuring theme in 7E7 vs. A330 battles, but we know AirNZ had ruled the 7E7 out at first. Even if the performance and price is right, SQ could go for the available aircraft regardless, a la A345.

Then again, I've heard from three different sources that SQ have determined the 777-300ER is the better aircraft, from a operations viewpoint, to begin replacing the 747-400 pax. fleet.

If deliveries really are to begin in 2006, Airbus probably won't have the A346HGW in service yet. Given the payload, range, economic advantages of the 773ER, as well as an extensive 777 fleet, I see the order going to the 773ER.
 
scottysair
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:21 pm

Now, they already make with the orders of those 3 airlines. It will be good for ANA, NZ, & SQ.
 
AGrayson514
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sat Jun 05, 2004 11:55 pm

I'm thinking that they are using the 7E7's later delivery date problem to get Boeing to give them a sweet deal.


~Andrew Grayson
Give a little bit...
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:41 am

Two airlines in the pacific have already bet that 7E7 will be well worth the wait, and one of them is a major airline (ANA). SQ should look at both the A330 and 7E7, but I bet they put their money in the same place ANA did, 7E7.
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 12:43 am

I'm surprised ConcordeBoy hasn't considered the prosepct of SIA ordering the A330 and the 7E7 and the 777-300ER.

Then in the future when the (more efficient I think it's safe to presume?) 7E7 actually gets build (damn Boeing taking their time), then SIA would ditch the A330.

Having said that, the A330 as mentioned before is not looked upon favorably. Most noticeably, it is heavy.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:25 am

I'm surprised ConcordeBoy hasn't considered the prosepct of SIA ordering the A330 and the 7E7 and the 777-300ER

 Confused

***********

If you're inquiring as to why I haven't said much on this... is because 1) I don't have anything to say that already hasn't been said, 2) I'd love to see either the A330 or 7E7 get the order as they're both great aircraft, and 3) it's only a matter of time before those A345s get ditched.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Spoon04
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:19 am

ConcordeBoy, why do you feel the A345's will get jettisoned?
 
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scbriml
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:22 am

it's only a matter of time before those A345s get ditched.

That may be easier said than done! Yes, history shows us that Boeing took A343s off SQ as part of their original 777 deal. But, it took Boeing a long time to get rid of them.

If, and personally I think it's a big if, Boeing took the A345s in trade for 772LRs, they could be stuck with those planes forever! Both the A345 and the 772LR are niche aircraft, they will not sell in the hundreds. Finding a customer for 2nd hand A345s or 772LRs could be a long process.

It really depends how desperate Boeing are to sell 5 or 6 772LRs. If SQ order 7E7s or 773ERs, Boeing may not be too bothered about offering SQ a great deal on the 772LRs. While it would be a nice publicity coup, they could have a fleet of A345s on their hands for a long time.

[edited for spelling error]

[Edited 2004-06-05 20:38:25]
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Alessandro
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:26 am

So Embraer 195 isn´t an option?
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dynkrisolo
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:43 am


history shows us that Boeing took A343s off SQ as part of their original 777 deal. But, it took Boeing a long time to get rid of them.


Firstly, they sold them, didn't they? Secondly, it took Boeing a while to sell those 343s, but it was because Airbus tried to sabotage some of the earlier deals. Airbus paid for it, too.


Both the A345 and the 772LR are niche aircraft, they will not sell in the hundreds.


True.


Finding a customer for 2nd hand A345s or 772LRs could be a long process.


You forgot there is an insatiable airline named Emirates, the same airline that took the bulk of the SQ 343s.  Wink/being sarcastic


It really depends how desperate Boeing are to sell 5 or 6 772LRs. If SQ order 7E7s or 773ERs, Boeing may not be too bothered about offering SQ a great deal on the 772LRs. While it would be a nice publicity coup,


It would be more than a publicity coup. Even if Boeing would like to do it, it doesn't mean SQ would want to do it.

 
ND
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:43 am

Even if SIA was to order tha A345, could a 2006 delivery even be assured? I think if someone on this board is going to make an assumption as to what aircraft SIA is going to order, they should base it on that model being deliverable in 2006.

Another deal here is how the mixture of the 50 orders will be options. My thinking is that they'll order a couple 773ERs for 2006 delivery (if possible) and convert the rest of the options into 7E7s when the time comes.
ND - Hated By Many, Confronted By None
 
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scbriml
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:00 am

Airbus tried to sabotage some of the earlier deals. Airbus paid for it, too.

Just as Boeing would have done in the same position. Airbus had already sold those planes once, and would have known exactly how much to offer A340s to potential customers in order to undercut Boeing's second hand models.

You forgot there is an insatiable airline named Emirates

Yes of course, EK would be a potential buyer for them, but they have limited routes that justify an A345 (but that doesn't stop them operating them DXB-LGW!)
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
AC
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:05 am

My thinking is that they'll order a couple 773ERs for 2006 delivery (if possible) and convert the rest of the options into 7E7s when the time comes

Agree. I can't really see which existing or potential routines need so many aircrafts before 2006. I believe SQ just make the order a bigger one in order to get a bigger discount from Boeing or Airbus.
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dynkrisolo
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:12 am


Just as Boeing would have done in the same position.


It's only your speculation.


Airbus had already sold those planes once, and would have known exactly how much to offer A340s to potential customers in order to undercut Boeing's second hand models.


Unless they know how much Boeing paid SQ for those planes. I doubt Airbus knows the exact details of a contract signed between Boeing and SQ. Airbus did more than just undercutting Boeing, but I can't go into the details.


EK would be a potential buyer for them, but they have limited routes that justify an A345


It's only five planes. Don't forget they have talked about a hub in New Zealand. The 345 could be the hub connector betwen DXB and AKL. Also, additional US destinations like SFO, DTW, IAD, ... There are plenty of opportunities for a creative airline like EK.



[Edited 2004-06-05 21:14:14]
 
Vorticity
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:23 am

Airbus had already sold those planes once, and would have known exactly how much to offer A340s to potential customers in order to undercut Boeing's second hand models.

I'm going to have to agree with Dynkrisolo here. Details of offers are usually kept secret for competition purposes. It's in the companies best interest to keep both sides in the dark, forces them come up with their best offer. At least in theory.

It's always a messy deal trying to win contracts. The Aerospace Industry is 100 times more clean then some other industries though  Smile Too much government involvement, they gotta keep clean.

[Edited 2004-06-05 21:25:29]
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DfwRevolution
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:25 am

Then in the future when the (more efficient I think it's safe to presume?) 7E7 actually gets build (damn Boeing taking their time)

Boeing is hardly "taking their time" with the 7E7, and historically, Boeing brings aircraft to market faster than Airbus. The first time Boeing mentioned the 7E7 was December 2002 and the concept matured through 2003. It was launched in 2004 and will enter service in 2008, meaning a 4 year development cycle... not slow at all.
 
Guest

RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:29 am

Ooooohhh Boeing and Airbus are going to be busting their balls trying to get this order, expect big discounts.

Will SQ be able to recieve the 7E7 in 2008 though, as already 52 have been ordered?
 
N79969
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:32 am

"Just as Boeing would have done in the same position. Airbus had already sold those planes once, and would have known exactly how much to offer A340s to potential customers in order to undercut Boeing's second hand models."

Didn't Airbus threaten not to honor warranty claims on those new A340?
 
ha763
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:04 am

"Didn't Airbus threaten not to honor warranty claims on those new A340?"

I believe that is what they said when CX wanted to lease/buy some of the ex-SQ A340s. Boeing then said that they would never not provide support for any of their aircraft, even if it was Airbus who owns/sells/leases the aircraft. After the flak Airbus got from everyone, they withdrew the threat.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:38 am

Will SQ be able to recieve the 7E7 in 2008 though, as already 52 have been ordered?

From what I have read, Boeing will deliver 2 7E7s a month in early 2008, increasing to 6-8 in mid 2008, then entering full production in 2009. So there is a dearth of 7E7 slots in 2008...

ANA's fleet will be delivered over several years, not just from January 2008 through December 2008, and AirNZ only has two firm orders placed as of today. One of the reasons for the subsequent numer of options may have been to stick their foot in the door if slots become scarce. Boeing is scheduling deliveries to expediently deliver frames for airlines who have ordered while keeping slots free for new customers, not an easy task.

If SQ orders soon they might still recieve 2008 slots. If they delay the order a year or more then prized delivery slots are doubtful...
 
Greg
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:20 am

It's actually genius. SQ likely has no real need for the aircraft prior to 2008, but will 'burden' themselves for two years with higher costs operating an alternative---if they 'have to.'

Can't think of a better bargaining position if want steep discounts and likely some reimbursement for higher operating costs...

Would likely only backfire if China grabs 50 7e7 positions first---discounting their bargaining chip a bit...

The 7e7, Boeing, or Airbus do not NEED Singapore for successful programs. It's a nice plum...but not a necessity.
 
AA787
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 6:34 am

I think SQ is making this announcement sooner rather than later because if they do buy the 7E7 (which I expect them to) they may be able to get some 2008 slots. If China orders before them they may have to wait (that may be a HUGE order  Smile/happy/getting dizzy)

AA787
ET In NYC
 
sq452
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:48 am

ITs going to be a Boeing order, 777s for sure, most likely the 773ER i cant fathom them ordering an A330 at all. wouldnt fit into their strategy.

Im guessing couple 773ERs some 777LRs and maybe some more A345s and 7E7's. Its going to be interesting!!!

SIN > CVG > BOS
 
Guest

RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:01 am

some 777LRs and maybe some more A345s

quite a contradicting strategy has arisen in your vision.

[Edited 2004-06-06 03:02:50]
 
Horus
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:11 am

In my humble opinion I think they'll go for 7773ERs and 7E7s.
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
ualonghaul
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:56 am

I cannot see SQ really going after a 772LR.

I am not all that optimistic that the ultra long range LAX-SIN AND EWR-SIN routes are going to be around forever. Each time I have been aboard i was stunned at the lack of people, Routes like that with expensive planes and huge amounts of fuel cannot be sustained on minimal pax loads. I would not be all that surprised it SQ suspended these flights in the future (maybe a year out if nothing really starts picking up) or at least cutting them down to 4 times weekly or something.

Before SQ19/20 started i could see SQ wanting to ditch the A345 for a 777 counterpart when available, but I cannot see SQ spending any more time or money on outfitting new aircraft for ultra longhaul on routes that are costing more than they are taking in. I may be very off base, and numbers from SQ are the only way of knowing, but I cannot see routes like these sustaining themselves without a sudden increase in demand for non stop singapore travel.

The 2 for 1 Raffles and 20% off exec economy fares for the EWR-SIN route is evidence that SQ is GIVING away seats to get people to fly on this route. I think the timing was bad and the location choice of the New York area looked better on paper than it will preform in reality.

I could see 777300ER replacing the megatop fleet in the future. The 747 in SQ livery has kind of become an icon in long haul travel though. I do think that SQ, along with many other airlines, will choose efficency in the future with a 7E7 and new 777 aircraft.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:04 pm

Before SQ19/20 started i could see SQ wanting to ditch the A345 for a 777 counterpart when available, but I cannot see SQ spending any more time or money on outfitting new aircraft for ultra longhaul on routes that are costing more than they are taking in

Exactly... and the 772LR could potentially reverse this. The 772LR can carry a much greater payload and a higher fraction of premium passengers than the A345, and that can mean the difference between profit and loss, all while being cheaper to opperate.

With a huge fleet of 772ERs and a new subfleet of 773ERs, the 772LR would be right at home.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:11 pm

I have the feeling that it is going to be a Boeing order. As most people said they probally want to ensure that they order the 7e7 before there is a huge back log.
Eagles Soar!
 
gigneil
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:12 pm

The 772LR can carry a much greater payload and a higher fraction of premium passengers than the A345, and that can mean the difference between profit and loss, all while being cheaper to opperate.

Not "much" greater. "Fractionally" greater.

The 343 for 777 swap may have been good press, but it was bad business for Boeing, and I doubt they'll participate in such a scheme a second time. If SQ finds a direct buyer, great. If not, I see them keeping them.

Plus, jesus christ. We haven't heard a single bad word about 345 performance. Its doing great as far as we know, and there's already been substantial press about them.

N
 
asianguy767
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 1:20 pm

SQ's choice for replacing the B744 on its high density routes is the A380 which arrives in 2006. That would mean then that its fleet would comprise of A380s, A345s, B744s, B777s. SQ has always preferred a 2 aircraft fleet (B747&A310) with 3 types being the max. So I forsee that the order will be B773ERs for those B744s that will be retired come 2006 on the thinner routes. The 7E7 i feel will be part of the order since it boasts of such fantastis fuel economics. As for the A345, time will tell its fate since its only 5 on firm order of which 3 have been delivered.
 
ualonghaul
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:01 pm

"Plus, jesus christ. We haven't heard a single bad word about 345 performance. Its doing great as far as we know, and there's already been substantial press about them.
"

Have you been on SQ19/20 at all? The fact that lots of press and advertising exists for this flight is nothing more than money spent on advertising. I have yet to be aboard this flight with a full load. I have yet to see over 60% on the SIN-LAX leg. I would be curious to see the actual revenue / cost numbers for the route to see exactly how it is preforming. None of us know unless we are accountants for SIA, but it certainly is not preforming as well as i thought it would be.

Sure lots of press has existed for it, as it is the worlds longest commercial flight. You may find lots of press about the worlds biggest frying pan and the worlds largest ball of twine, that does not mean that people are lining up waiting to pay full price for admission to see it. I encourage you to take a few trips on it and check out the loads for yourself. I called 3 days before my first departure (4 days after the innagural LAX-SIN) to make an AWARD RESERVATION. Award reservations are limited to what, like 5-10 seats on that flight? Point is, i didnt have to line up 5 days in advance to secure my reservation and pay over $1250 for economy.

It would be nice for SIA to have an all boeing fleet, but i just dont see the need for them to buy 772LR to replace the A345, as i do not think that it is a route that will be around for a large timeframe. I don't know how or where we could get some revenue and cost info for these flights but that would tell us all if they are willing to spend more on the route or not.
 
ZK-NBT
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 2:28 pm

I think SQ will order 773ER's and 7E7's.

The 773ER will replace the 744 while the A380 will take over the very high destiny routes like SIN-LHR and SIN-SYD and maybe 1 or 2 others.

I would think SQ will seat around 520 on the A380 and about 340-350 on the 773ER if they order it. That leaves a big gap really in seat capacity.

Just for the sake of it i'll add my 2 cents worth on the 345 vs 772LR, I think SQ only ordered it because it was the only aircraft in its class at the time, so it wouldn't surprise me at all if they replace them with 772LR's. Though if they do happen to order the 346 instead then the 345 will have a higher chance of staying.

Just because it you have never been on the SIN-LAX flight when it has been full doesn't mean its never full.
 
flying lsd
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:08 pm

yes, yes ,yes, but if SIA wants airplanes for 2006, which one can be delivered?

a 7e7 solution, maybe but for 2008, then boeing needs a interim solution, I don't see SIA accept 767.

The date is a really problem, because the aircraft is sure : 7e7, if 330 'll be ok for SIA, why orders so 777?

The problem is between SIA and boeing, helas, Airbus loss this battle, but the relationship between Airbus and Sia are difficult since the 343 affair.

Maybe this time Sia have find their " W " aircraft but not the good timing!

SIA' W = medium haul high capacity aircraft in the SIA language
 
ualonghaul
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RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 3:28 pm

"Just because it you have never been on the SIN-LAX flight when it has been full doesn't mean its never full."

I never said it could not be, but since I have been on it numerous times in its short history of only a few months, it seems that a pattern is forming as to the loads. If I was on it and it was full all the time I would be more inclined to think that it was full most of the time. See how patterns work?

Right now the addition of those aircraft cost SIA a lot of cash, they are not cheap. If they are operated on a route that is not profitable or only slightly profitable, it will take a hell of a long time to pay them off while depreciating them on their balance sheet. Were they outright purchased or are they under a capital lease through Airbus Capital? If they are leased, they pay xxx,xxx a month for them, whatever the figure may be, that is most likely confidential if they are under capital lease and no one here knows what the price may be. The A345 was built around comfort and not economics. SIA Sacrificed a lot of additional seats at the expense of a more pleasant experience for the customer. That is great for us who get to fly in it, but means that the potential earning for each flight is less than if it was jammed with your traditional econ. Yes the fare is more costly, but this can only offset some of the cost. Since SIA now has a expensive plane with less possible revenue seats aboard, they have a challenge on their hands. SIA Must fill a greater percentage of seats on the A345 than they would have to on a A345 configured with a standard economy. The fare differences helps somewhat.

Even if loads were 100% every day in and day out, it is STILL impossible to generate the same yield off the route than if the plane had a regular configuration and not exec economy with more legroom, stand up snacks areas, etc. The fact that less passengers are aboard with a large portion of fixed or slightly variable costs mean a lower net profit margin % for this route.

The higher fares for this route (and the soon to follow EWR-SIN) route are an attempt to offset the increased per pax fuel consumption, pilot and FA wages, etc that are associated with operating an aircraft with this type of configuration. A good portion of each of these aspects (jet fuel, wages, airport slots, etc) are fixed to a point. Fuel consumption would be roughly similar if 1 person was aboard or 75 people were aboard. Increase the fare for each person, and you can offset these fixed costs while accommodating less pax.

I just find it hard to belief that SIA, or anyone for that manner, can calculate these numbers exactly enough to be generating the absolute maximum profit off these flights. So many variables are involved from pax loads to current jet fuel prices to wind conditions that can change everything in a minute. The idea of putting less people onto a plane to provide more comfort and luxury to travelers is absolutely wonderful for us as pax, but it violates the time tested laws of economics that airlines have been living by for years. Cram as many in as possible and you will most likely be looking at more profit.

It is certainly too early to tell on our end (all of our speculation) and on SIA end. Pax trends cannot be forecasted on such a small time scale, and the uncertainties of jet fuel prices can change everything. It does appear, in MY EXPERIANCE aboard SQ19 and SQ20 is that pax loads are not 100%, and maybe not even 85%, and it makes it a lot harder to generate profit when less seats are filled on an aircraft with relative high costs to the low number of seats on board.

As a result, even the idea of acquiring new aircraft to serve this route is subject to thousands of factors, from maintaining costs of having a one company fleet to pax loads and expected yields. It is more than a science to predict and forecast these things.

On a side note, I do hope that the service continues well into the future. I would have to say by far that SQ19 is my favorite flight by a longshot. I encourage everyone here who has yet to experience this flight to go out and do it, you will be happy you did. (I do not work for SIA so don't say I am trying to sell it to everyone)
 
asianguy767
Posts: 247
Joined: Sun Oct 12, 2003 11:17 pm

RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 4:57 pm

FYI, the breakeven load factor for SQ20/19 is 85%.
 
Ruscoe
Posts: 1577
Joined: Sun Aug 22, 1999 5:41 pm

RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 5:20 pm

The 345 and the 772LR are going to be great freighters!

Ruscoe
 
United Airline
Posts: 8765
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 7:47 pm

B 777-300ER to replace their oldest B 747-400s, as well as the B 7E7 to replace their A 310s I guess?
 
United Airline
Posts: 8765
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:09 pm

How many A 310s did SIA operate?
 
United Airline
Posts: 8765
Joined: Wed Jan 10, 2001 5:24 pm

RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:09 pm

Go to:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1559425/
 
dynkrisolo
Posts: 1823
Joined: Mon Feb 12, 2001 12:12 am

RE: SIA To Order 50 Planes, Wants 2006 Delivery

Sun Jun 06, 2004 9:36 pm


but the relationship between Airbus and Sia are difficult since the 343 affair


Are you sure? Don't you remember SIA ordered the 380 after they decided to retire the 343?

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