MEA-707
Topic Author
Posts: 3662
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Mon Jun 07, 2004 11:51 pm

I read fantastic news in the new issue of World Airline Fleets News !
Air-Iraq will replace Iraqi Airways as the country's new flag carrier. It will be required to operate as a US-certified carrier. The airline will begin service with DC-8 equipment, the first route will be Baltimore-Baghdad, three times weekly with economy fares of $ 1800. Check http://www.airiraqco.com.
My guess is they will lease the DC-8 from ATI which has some combi 62s which should be able to fly it non stop and take some cargo as well. Another (of course not confirmed) thing is the insurances might rather like the airline flying DC-8s instead of 777s (like MEA hang on to their 707s and 720s longer due to insurance and write off issues when Beirut was not safe).
In a later stadium the airline will take 737s, a 767 and a 777.
If the country's safety is acceptable, of course I will try to get on that DC-8 ! The first ones in passenger service since 1996 (final carriers: Rich, Air Marshall Islands and Aero Peru).
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
22right
Posts: 393
Joined: Sat May 01, 2004 2:41 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:00 am

This brings up an interesting point. What aircraft did Iraqi Airways have prior to the US invasion?

Are any of those a/c still airworthy? (provided US troops didnt rip them apart to find those elusive WMD, or blow them up simply to award a contract to an American company to turn around and replace them.)

If they are still in operating condition, why would this new airline use an antique DC-8 for pax service?

"I never apologize! I am sorry, but that's the way it is!" - Homer Simpson
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2303
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:27 am

After Looking at the business plan, all i could gather about
DC-8s is that they would be used for Cargo services. In the appendix it seems to suggest that a 767-200 was going to be typical.


I would think, that with the amount of very very cheap DC-10s they could get,
or very early A310s or 762s, this would be a very inexpense start-up option for them. Or even an old 742 operating, perhaps even a 752 with a stop somewhere(this would still be faster than connecting in europe and changing planes a billion times).

If there is a DC-8 gonna fly, count me in! I've never been to Iraq. A DC-8 is a good enough excuse.
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:41 am

Guys, I appreciate your enthusiasm for aviation, but you couldn`t pay me to fly on a DC-8 operated by the USA, let alone Iraq. Old airliners are neat, but jumping on an aircraft older than you are, that probably hasn`t had decent maintenance in decades, that is flown by less than stellar flightcrews, is not my idea of fun!
 
MEA-707
Topic Author
Posts: 3662
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:26 am

Well IF (Lufthansa's probably right that it will be a cargo only) they will use pax DC-8, it will probably be a machine wetleased from ATI and US registered. ATI's DC-8-62s are in great shape and ATI has a good safety record so not more risky then flying a Northwest DC-9  Wink/being sarcastic. Other pure passenger configured DC-8s are not available any more (either coverted to cargo configuration or scrapped).
The reasons they might use it is they are cheaper to acquire and especially insure then newer types, they are long range and the combi version still delivers an economical product.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
bragi
Posts: 212
Joined: Sun May 27, 2001 5:17 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:30 am

If you are interested in flying an antique aircraft, let it be a Piper Cub or a DC-3. Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I think the DC-8 is a beautiful aircraft, but to give you an idea of what it's like is to fly on it;
The cabin is pretty similar to that of a B-757, except there is more noise and the entertainment system is less modern!
Not hugely exciting prospect for a 8-10 hour flight. Big grin
Muhammad Ali: "Superman don’t need no seat belt." Flight Attendant: "Superman don’t need no airplane, either."
 
Spike
Posts: 1110
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 1:08 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:39 am

Why would Iraq choose Baltimore to fly too? It would be the last place on my list. And the US would not let a pax DC-8 come anywhere near its shores anyway. This is just propaganda right?
 
doug_or
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:46 am

And the US would not let a pax DC-8 come anywhere near its shores anyway.

would you care to explain why not?

Why would Iraq choose Baltimore to fly too?
becuse its vaugely clsoe to DC. on their webpage they refer to it as Washington DC (BWI).
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
nwacrew
Posts: 305
Joined: Thu Apr 24, 2003 12:06 pm

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:50 am

As someone who spent almost a decade working as a flight attendant on DC-8's, you guys are making me suddenly feel VERY old! (LOL)
 
Mikey711MN
Posts: 1229
Joined: Fri Nov 07, 2003 4:19 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:52 am

This just looks like an aviation enthusiast's pipedream:


Registrant: Dr. Fatola Yazdi
7731 Tuckerman Lane
#204
Potomac, Maryland 20854
United States
Registered through: GoDaddy.com (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: AIRIRAQCO.COM
Created on: 09-Jun-03
Expires on: 09-Jun-04
Last Updated on: 09-Oct-03
Administrative Contact:
Yazdi, Dr. Fatola yazdi@yazdi.com
7731 Tuckerman Lane
#204
Potomac, Maryland 20854
United States
(202) 256-9000
Fax -- (202) 429-9299
Technical Contact:
Yazdi, Dr. Fatola yazdi@yazdi.com
7731 Tuckerman Lane
#204
Potomac, Maryland 20854
United States
(202) 256-9000
Fax -- (202) 429-9299
Domain servers in listed order:
NS.TERRAWEBSOLUTIONS.COM
NS2.TERRAWEBSOLUTIONS.COM


The guy runs yazdi.com, which appears to be nothing more than a "go to" site for aviation info, albeit nothing special.

Conclusion: I don't believe a bit of this.

-Mike
I plan on living forever. So far, so good...
 
jmc757
Posts: 1205
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 3:36 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:20 am

Cant make my mind up on this one... swinging towards the "fake" school of thought...

On a side note, didnt the old Iraqi Airways have an order with Airbus (A320s??) that Airbus still has on its books to date?
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:39 am

On a side note, didnt the old Iraqi Airways have an order with Airbus (A320s??) that Airbus still has on its books to date?

I know for a fact that they weren't A320s, but I can't remember if they were A300s or A310s.

AAndrew
 
L.1011
Posts: 2163
Joined: Mon Aug 13, 2001 7:46 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:45 am

They are for 6 A310-300s, still on the books as the last unfilled A310 orders.
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:35 am

...the 5 A313s will probably never be produced. The order dates from the mid-80s. The remainder of the fleet, some of which was destroyed, and the rest of which sit engineless and coated in sand in Iraq and Jordan included some 722s and 732s, in addition to 1-3 742s (retired AGES ago), a 747SP (not in bad shape) and maybe a pair of 703Cs, but I doubt any of the "survivors" have flown since 1998, or more probably 1990/1. An Il-76 was configured to carry pax in 2001, to fly between Baghdad and Basra, but AFAIK the venture proved unsuccessful and the first flight was plagued by "technical" problems. Since 9/11 and the outbreak of US-Iraqi hostilities, Iraqi Airways has been grounded, if nothing else through lack of funds.
On a side note, I wonder if Iraqi Il-76s and/or An-26s were used to ship disassembled WMDs to Iran or Russia. I'm not a conspiracist and don't believe there are any WMDs in Iraq, but if I was Saddam, I would have expatriated those weapons after the UN inspectors left in 1998... Who knows?

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:37 am

And the US would not let a pax DC-8 come anywhere near its shores anyway.

Funny...I see them in Toledo (TOL) nearly every day. Must just be a figment of my imagination or it may just be the haze from the extremely hot concrete in the summers.

Not sure what I'm going to do when BAX/ATI doesn't have the DC-8s anymore; they are kinda neat to watch them come in in the early afternoon against a deep blue sky. However...that discussion is for another time and place as it isn't public yet.  Smile
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:11 am

ummmm those are freighters and NOT PAX airplanes.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
JHSfan
Posts: 460
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 6:22 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:30 am

This may give you an update on the fate of the old planes of Iraqi Airlines. 'Commercial Aviation Today' has had an article on their website for some time (more than a year): Whatever Happened to Iraqi Airways?
Go to http://www.commercialaviationtoday.com/archives/2003/1-1023-cat-3-Feb-03.htm

Hope that Air-Iraq will succeed Smile

Yours in realtime
JHSfan
Look at me, I´m riding high, I´m the airbornmaster of the sky...
 
NWADC9
Posts: 3938
Joined: Tue Jun 01, 2004 12:33 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:26 am

I see terrorists boarding these flights heading towards BWI, making another 9/11

So right now,
"I see dead people."
Flying an aeroplane with only a single propeller to keep you in the air. Can you imagine that? -Capt. Picard
 
ouboy79
Posts: 4110
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2001 1:48 pm

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:30 am

ummmm those are freighters and NOT PAX airplanes.

GS


Perhaps you aren't aware that ATI being the last passenger DC-8 airline in the world (according to one media source) is hubbed in Toledo. Therefore, all of their passenger DC-8s are either usually parked on the BAX ramp or transit through here on their return from overseas.

Another interesting note, ATI/BAX was awarded 3 weekly slots flying between Toledo and Baghdad - Toledo is one of 3 or 4 cities that currently have commercial flying rights to Iraq.
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:34 am

Avt007,
In reference to your post above about not wanting to fly on aircraft that are older than you: There are set maintenance standards here in the US (and similar civil aviation admin's world wide). As long as those aircraft meet those standards, they are as safe as anything else flying. I'd rather go with tried and true personally. Years don't mean anything as far as an aircraft's age is concerned, it's cycles. Nothing to worry about with flying on the older birds, just as long as they are properly maintained.

Edit: P.S.-Wouldn't it be thrilling to be able to look out of your window and see these JT3D's slung out there grinding away?


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Photo © Sam Chui



[Edited 2004-06-08 03:52:45]
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:08 am

You have to be honest: Air Iraq will become the laughing stock of the planet! Acquiring a DC-8 for transatlantic flights is something that hasn't been done for over 35 years. It's not "retro", it's backward. The last DC-8 rolled off the production line in 1972, and none have been flying pax regularly since 1996. It's not a matter of age--they're great freighters and the CFM upgrades and glass cockpits have made a huge difference, but I'd still be a little insulted if the country that had made breakfast out of large parts of my homeland and blown some far younger aircraft to smithereens proposed to create an airline by the name of "Air Iraq" operating DC-8s. I mean why not DC-3s or Caravelles while they're at it, or even L-100s?
C'mon! There is such a surplus of B742s, B752s, B762s, L-1011s and DC-10s, or even A300s and A310s that I don't see where the economics lie in antiques like the DC-8. It is a joke. ARIANA even got a better offer, and when Somalia finally gets on its own two feet and establishes a single government, it will too!
Of course, this whole DC-8 story could just as well be a fictitious parody, which hopefully, for the sake of Iraq's dignity and self-respect, it is...

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:34 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:29 am

I'll believe it when I see the pics of these DC8s arriving to Baltimore on A.net. Otherwise, I'm thinking that someone forgot when April 1st really is.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Avt007,
"Aircraft are like fine wine. They just get better with age."~~ That coming from on of the 'big guys' at the NTSB. Remember that. Of course, you have a right to your opinion and preference.

Saying that older airplanes would be flown by 'less than stellar flight crews', wasn't very nice.  Big grin
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
doug_or
Posts: 3118
Joined: Sat Mar 18, 2000 9:55 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:15 pm

LV- I think the poinnt of the -62 would be those alrady outlines, namely-

-lower insurance cost than almsot anything out there
-Combi configuration (I'm assuming there's more time sensitive frieght than people wanting -to make the trip)
-range (this one I don't know about- can a -62 do bagdad-DC?)

the only other aircraft I could see fulfilling this role would be a 742, but there would be way to much capacity.

that said, neither the site nor the registration looks super professional. but on the other hand if you're wet leasing your fleet for a single route, you're not going to have something on par with United.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
flybynight
Posts: 1131
Joined: Wed Jul 30, 2003 1:58 pm

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:29 pm

nwacrew - What airline did you fly the 707 with? Northwest Orient?
Heia Norge!
 
jderden777
Posts: 1677
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 9:56 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:32 pm

Avt007:

i personally fly airplanes that are older than i am all the time...doesn't bother me one bit...

plus, i'd love to fly on a classic like the dc-8...never got to :-(

jonathan d.

"my soul is in the sky" - shakespeare
 
rj777
Posts: 1548
Joined: Sat Dec 02, 2000 1:47 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:39 pm

"Otherwise, I'm thinking that someone forgot when April 1st really is."

I wonder how many times THAT has happened around here?
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2000 4:51 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:56 pm

Folks, my point is, in general, if you are a company flying a DC-8, chances are you are not the cream of the crop. Sorry, nothing personal in all this, but if you are excited about flying on a DC-8, be realistic. Are the crews, the management, the engineers, the parts and the airframe itself, likely to be better or worse than say, a Southwest 737, or a Lufthansa A340?
I've seen enough operations with elderly aircraft, and while on paper they were up to Canadian standards, in reality they were crap. Generally speaking not a penny was spent on the aircraft that wasn't absolutely necessary to get it off the ground.
Now take all that and put it in a second or third world country, with little or no oversight from civil aviation authorities, and it's an accident waiting to happen.
There is a reason why DC-8s are almost extinct, and no amount of nostalgia will change that.
 
Vorticity
Posts: 324
Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 9:09 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:57 pm

i personally fly airplanes that are older than i am all the time...doesn't bother me one bit...

I took a ride on the only flying Boeing 247 once in a 4th of July Air Show in Seattle.... they made us sign a waver before boarding that if we died they weren't liable  Big grin

The DC8's can't be toooo dangerous if they still fly them for cargo.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
VirginFlyer
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:33 pm

The most suspicious aspect that struck me was the fact the page is using the old Iraqi flag in the logo, as opposed to the new blue and white one (unless that has been quietly scrapped)

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:34 pm

Avt007,
It's not a matter of nostalgia. It's what you are saying is absolute balderdash and that's why you've ellicted some responses. As long as any aircraft is properly maintained, it is as safe as it was the day it rolled off of the production line (and in many cases safer after AD's are released when they get the bugs worked out). In fact, I'm glad that you chose WN as one of your examples above because their fleet has one of the highest utilization rates in the country, and pretty much the world. Something like 11.5 hours of flight time per day I believe it is. Do you know how many cycles are put on a WN 737 airframe in a day? Look at those -200's that they have bangin' around after all of these years. However, they're just as safe as the new -700's and I would not be feigned in any way by flying on one. All aircraft go through fatigue checks, and maintenance checks regularly and for the most part the mx guys do a pretty good job in sniffing any problems out (though I can think of cases where mx screwed up and cost some lives).

Here is where your case strays though. I'm refering to non-3rd world countries in terms of mx standards set out by their civil aviation admins. Even I would be a bit, skiddish, lets say, to go to oh...random country...Ethopia and hop on a 727 (as much as I love them). However, these DC-8's mentioned above, if this is not some cooked up fantasy website, would be on the US civil aviation register governed by the FAA. Again, we revert to my stipulation that any aircraft is safe as long as it is properly maintained. There's a distinct difference when it comes to flying on aircraft from 3rd world countrys. I don't trust their mx period and that goes without saying that applies to brand new aircraft as well as some that have been around the block a few times.

And as far as your flying DC-8's non-cream of the crop statement goes, look at the huge fleet that UPS has and they're the world's largest cargo operator. Look at the fleets that UA and DL had of DC-8's into the late 80's and early 90's. And there was nothing wrong with them mechanically. Just economically there were better options as dictated by the progression of technology.

~Defender of the Old School Aircraft~

[Edited 2004-06-08 12:38:14]
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
SQ25J
Posts: 253
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:26 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:57 pm

Ethiopia is a bad example to assert their maintenanace standars are inferior to western/developed nations. A former US ambassador was quick to cite them for their excellence in aircraft maintenance, also they do have FAA certification and do market themselves as a supplier of numerous services such as C checks, modifications, etc. Once again Ethiopia has excellent maintenance standards, possibly better than some vendors in US.
 
737doctor
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:52 pm

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:06 pm

As someone who worked on DC-8's for 6 1/2 years and as a current mechanic for Southwest, let me say that, Avt007, you are completely wrong. Your reaction surprises me as your profile says that you are an aircraft maintenance engineer.

I would never hesitate to put my wife and kids on any of our aircraft here and I felt the same way with the Eights I worked on years ago. In fact, my kids fly back and forth to Austin on our -200's almost every weekend.

Our safety record here at Southwest speaks for itself. And the fact that the Eights are still flying and will be for several cargo operations for many years to come is a testament to their durability and safety.



Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
Russophile
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:22 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:47 pm

Air Iraq or Sky Airline?

http://www.sky-airline.com/

What is it to be?

Khaleghi Yazdi who is the apparent brains behind this outfit is said to have had dozens of years of aviation experience, yet on a standard search the only reference to him is on the sky-airlines.com, airiraqco.com and usiraqbc.com websites.

However, on the yazdi.org site he makes mention that he is currently consulting for SAT Airlines and Sakhalin Airport -- seeing as I know the MD of the airline, an email has already been sent off to check this out.

Furthermore, it was reported only about a week ago that Iraqi Airways will continue to negotiate with Airbus for a number of aircraft -- to replace the A310s which were ordered, and for which deposits were paid, and will not be paid back to the airline.

Sounds like a pipedream to me -- much like that Swiss Skies outfit.
 
DeltaMD11
Posts: 1678
Joined: Sat Dec 07, 2002 4:56 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:15 pm

SQ,
If what you're saying is true (I don't know much about aviation in Ethiopia so maybe I should have chosen another country) allow me to rescind Ethiopa and in it's place insert a 3rd world nation that does not have a viable civil aviation administration.
Too often we ... enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought. - John Fitzgerald Kennedy
 
Cessna172RG
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:31 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:36 pm

Ok, my turn...

**cracks knuckles and puts away another Martini**

There are three types of people that partake in conversations on this board. There are CHILDREN, there are AVIATION ENTHUSIASTS, and there are KNOWLEDGEABLE PROFESSIONALS who visit these forums quite often. Let me define all three of these terms...

Knowledgeable Professionals are those who work in the aviation industry, or who have worked in the industry. They can be pilots, attendants, baggage chuckers, ticket agents, travel agents, ground crew drivers, PR agents, mechanics, dispatchers, administration, etc, etc, etc...

Aviation Enthusiasts are those of us who may or may not work for the airlines or any aviation related company, but we find it our hobby to learn more and to be fairly open minded about these sorts of things. Yes, once in a while, someone gets up on that old worn out soapbox and says "Boeing is Better," and then we just slap them with a nice big wet salami and they sit back down again, after remembering that we're all friends here, and in this together.

Children are the immature ones. The people who would say "I'm not flying on a DC-3 because they're older than Moses." Or, something like, "I think Airbus is better because their planes look COOLER." Or even "Hah, that plane is so old, it's gonna make that airline look completely stupid for using such third class flying tin." These are the people who can use a vinegar enema at times...and it doesn't matter WHAT AGE that they are, because in the end, they all act and reply the same.

Moving on to the topic at hand...

Personally, as an Aviation Management graduate, I think it's neat to see someone at least trying to spring ahead and re-introduce jet service into Iraq. They'll end up needing it anyway. If the company is to be American based, with whatever aircraft, then it's gonna be a hell of a lot better than letting the Iraqis start it up all by themselves. With set matinance standards, pilot hiring standards, and a good business plan, it might just work.

Who cares what the planes will be? Sure, sounds great if it's gonna be a DC-8. From their website, they show a picture of a 747SP that's "coming soon." Maybe that's what they'll use first.

But consider this...

Iraq isn't exactly the garden spot for tourists, but they do need supplies shipped in now and then. So, a combi DC-8 or even a convertable one would seem to be just fine. They could fill their few seats onboard and then pack the rest in with cargo and off they'd go...a good match for what they need.

Fleet choices aren't about what's new and "cool." It's about utility. Why wait three months for that A300-600R to roll off the line when you can get a perfectly ship-shape bird at a fraction of the price and still you can get a few years service out of that airframe?

And, it's not like you'll be catering to a lot of Microsoft, Boeing, Nintendo, Sony, and Nordstrom corporate business-first markets. If anyone really wants to go there, they'll probably be journalists, relief workers, family of people who are in Iraq, and so forth. And, if any Iraqis wish to fly to a little place called Baltimore, it'll be a hell of a lot better than flogging around in a Tupolev 124 or whatever they were that they had years ago. I'm sorry, but I don't care what the plane is called, but as long as they are KEPT MAINTAINED, and are PROVEN to be a fairly safe carrier, like the afore mentioned Southwest Airlines, then yeah, I'd fly them.

Which would you pick: Flying coach class on an 8 hour flight in a DC-8 with some possible inflight service, such as food, drinks, etc, or would you rather be stuck in the middle of a Bangladash train at 8 AM?

Come on out of your cave, and you'd find it to be quite an interesting world to learn about if you try.

And there's something I saw on a T-shirt here in Japan a few days ago:

"Stand up, you'd change"

I can't wait to see how many people I piss off today...
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
 
LVZXV
Posts: 1729
Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:03 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:27 am

C172RG:

All I am saying is that it must be a first in aviation history that a jet airliner to the likes of the DC-8 goes back into passenger service after eight years. The 707 is another story, as there are still a handful operating for military airlines or Saha of Iran that continue to fly passengers, and there is even one in Argentina still shy of 30.
However, few passenger DC-8s actually flew more than 20 years, and, whatever the maintenance issues, NONE are younger than 32. Sure, you can relate to NW DC-9s, LB 721s and the like, and the fact these DC-8s for Air Iraq will be -62Cs (combis), but it remains a bizarre choice for any airline.
Remember ARIANA. They received 3 or 4 AB4s from Indian Airlines and a similar number of relatively young 722s from AA. Why wouldn't a similar fleet work well for Air Iraq? There are enough passengers for ARIANA (operating from an even more war-torn environment) to fill AB4s to Central Europe.
And who is going to want to fly to/from BWI? London is probably a better start.

If you read Reply 13, you will also see that Iraqi Airways didn't operate "Tupolev 124s or whatever they had years ago" but instead, a fleet which at the time was perfectly modern and up to date. If Iraq is to take a step forward in this post-Saddam era, at least let its aviation sector follow suit. I love the DC-8 and wish it had lived a little longer, but its future looks fairly set in stone as a freighter. And if it was really viable to operate commercially, believe me, carriers from Peru, Colombia and plenty of other developing nations would still be doing so.

If this isn't a hoax, can someone at least confirm that these "DC-8s" are CFM-powered and with 2-crew glass cockpits?

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
Cessna172RG
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:31 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:37 am

To LVZXV:

My comments weren't targetted at your specific topic, however, it's nice to have some two way communication at times on the forums. And yes, it does seem to be a little odd to have DC-8s back in pax service, but...who knows? Like I mentioned, if you check the website of this new Iraq airline, under their flight information link, they've got a picture of a 747SP that it appears that they will be using.

As for the DC-8s being re-engined, I do believe that the "super" series were later re-engined with CFM engines, hence the rather huge engine nacelles, versus the older, slimmer ones, but I'm no technical genius. Also, I can't answer the glass cockpit question, but I think *knocks on wood* that they don't have glass cockpits.
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
 
noelg
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:44 am

Why would Iraq choose Baltimore to fly too

More to the point; why would anyone from Baltimore want to fly to Iraq?

 Nuts

Noel.
 
Thrust
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:00 am

That is great news!  Big thumbs up Now for the Boeing 707.
Fly one thing; Fly it well
 
avt007
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:18 am

I am trying to put some sense into those that would blindly jump on a DC-8 just because they can, without considering the whole picture. If an a/c has been on the US or western world register it's whole life, and IF it is being operated by a reputable company, (and don't try to tell me there aren't any fly-by-night questionable outfits out there), then it is probably fine. But to say that because a particular DC-8 has an N registration, that it is a cream puff,and the company is filled with the best of the best is a bit much.
It is because I'm an engineer that I've seen very questionable practices on old a/c, as well as some perfectly safe ones.
I'm not personally aware of any pax DC-8s in the States, and if a charter company came up with one, I'd be leery of it without knowing all the particulars.
This is not meant as an attack on DC-8s, or the US industry, or anyone in particular. I offer it as a reality check to those enthusiasts in the hopes that they'll make wise decisions on what they'll fly on. I've personally had some very scary experiences with non western aircraft and operators, and I'm trying to spread some healthy scepticism. In particular I'm worried about cultural atitudes in some areas towards CRM, and SOPs, and maintenance issues.
Let's put it this way- if a small charter company out of Florida produced a N-registered DC-8, and dry leased to Iraq, and it was operated by Iraqi flight crews, would you still put your wife and kids on it? I sure wouldn't.

[Edited 2004-06-08 20:27:42]
 
Vorticity
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:26 am

A properly maintained DC-8 could safely fly passenger service yes. It wouldn't have some of the safety features that more modern jets have, that aside it could work. My question is where do you find a few used DC-8s that have been properly maintained. Once you have yourself a DC-8, what's the outlook like for support/maintenance/parts?

I'd board a DC-8 if I was confident it had been properly maintained, and was continuing to be properly maintained and operated. I don't what it would take to get that confidence though.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
avt007
Posts: 1989
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:19 am

One last comment, because I'm waiting to board a flight to the land that time forgot, where internet access doesn't exist in the deep desert.
I have flown on DC-3s, Convair 580s, 707s, F28s and other assorted old aircraft. In some cases, I was involved in maintaining these aircraft. In every case I knew about the company and their practices and was comfortable flying with them. I don't have anything against old a/c as such, but merely point out that as an aircraft ages, it tends to go from a major airline, to a second tier airline, to maybe the desert for a while, then perhaps off to a third world country, or maybe it's converted to cargo. IMHO,as it changes hands, I'd say the overall professionalism of the hands it is in goes down slightly. Lower budgets, perhaps less experienced maintenance staff , probably a company with fewer aircraft to cover for AOG machines, which slightly increases the chances of poorer maintenance. Add to that the increased mtce requirements, and the availability of decent parts and overhauls for aircraft of the 707/DC-8 vintage, and I'll stick by my guns.
I agree with everyone who said if the mtce is done right, there is nothing wrong with a DC-8. But as time marches on, good luck finding a pax DC-8 in such condition.
Gotta go, I'm off to fly in a 4 month old airplane operated by one of the top airlines in the world. And yes, that makes me feel quite comfortable about getting on board.
 
Espion007
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:49 am

great excuse to go to baghdad-and of course the fact that BWI is one of my local airports  Smile
Snakes on a Plane!
 
dc8jet
Posts: 329
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:04 am

I think everyone is missing something here as far as the DC-8s go. There are no series 63 and 70 passenger aircraft left. The expense would too great to convert a freighter back to passenger configuration! I think at one time the government of Gabon had an executive 73 series aircraft. I am not sure of the current status of that aircraft. There are a couple of executive 62s out there.
The Saudia 72 is in the process of being cut up. One possibility is the ARAMCO
72 as they just got I think a 767. However the most logical choice would be the ATI DC-8-62s. At one time they had 6 or 7 aircraft in combi configuration. All of these aircraft have been extensively updated. They can carry up to 32 passengers.As mentioned above most of the people flying in would be families or relief workers and needed supplies and equipment could be carried as well.
If ATI already has the rights to fly to Bagdad it does seem to make sense. Now as far as this whole thing being for real that's another story!
 
Dazed767
Posts: 4967
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:46 am

ATI has 4 -62 combi's out there. I found out today that a rock star/group chartered one for about a month!

How cool would it be to get 30 of us to do an hour 'sight seeing' tour in a DC-8!
 
COSPN
Posts: 1535
Joined: Fri Oct 12, 2001 6:33 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:56 am

Don't ATI's DC-8's have only 33 pax seats ???
 
PlaneviewNYC
Posts: 130
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:31 pm

Wake me up when AA starts daily JFK-Baghdad 777 service.
 
dbo861
Posts: 853
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:07 pm

Is there much of a demand for a USA-Baghdad route? It's not exactly a huge tourist destination. Also, what's the airport identifier for Baghdad Intl?
 
iowaman
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:37 pm

It was(is) RBS I think.
 
cfm-56
Posts: 236
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RE: DC-8 Returns In Passenger Service!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:41 pm

A story not to believe in.It is so obvious this guy has nothing else to do than
make up tales about Air-Iraq,Sky-Airlines and so on.

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