BCAInfoSys
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Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:18 am

OK guys.. we've read a lot of articles in the last few days concerning the new Virgin USA start-up and it's selection of SFO as it's primary base of operations. However, there has not been any indication of whether or not the start-up was going to go with Airbus or Boeing aircraft. However, I read the article from the Financial Times and the final line of the article read:

Virgin is expected to order a fleet of up to 30 Airbus aircraft - a mix of A319s and A320s - worth about $1.6bn at current list prices.

However, the article doesn't state it's source for this information. So my question is, should we take this as an indication that Airbus won the contract, or is it still anyone's game? The only thing that gets me is that the article states they will need about 30 aircraft, when Branson has specifically said in the last few weeks that they'll need about 50 aircraft. So that suggest to me that the information may be outdated or inaccurate; kind of brings the credibility of the information into question.

Steve
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:22 am

well you work for Boeing BCA, you tell us.
 
Vorticity
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:24 am

well you work for Boeing BCA, you tell us.

Like anyone that would know that kind of inside information would give it out on a forum  Smile I make sure to only talk about projects I don't work on, as to never give anything away
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:24 am

Used to work at Boeing. His internship ended am i correct.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:25 am

I belive it when I see it in airbus.com  Big grin

Mike//SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:28 am

Nope.. I'm still a current Boeing employee Aloha717200. Maybe ask me before you make statements like that? I'm in the middle of my 2nd internship; and I've been signed on for a full-time position once I graduate.

And the whole reason why I put it out there Rob, is because I've been hearing mixed information (internally and externally) and wanted to get some opinions.

And finally Solnabo said something productive! Everyone break out the champagne and celebrate! He finally showed some restraint and admitted that nothing was for certain and that we have to wait and see!

Regardless however.. speculation people, come on. That's why I put it up there...

[Edited 2004-06-07 21:29:24]
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:30 am

This has been a screwy issue. First, V-USA was only considering the A320 series. Then they stated they needed about 30 to begin opperations. Then they went back saying they were in discussion with both Boeing and Airbus. Now they need 50 to begin opperation, and they're back to Airbus! I get the feeling V-USA is going to give Air India a run for its money in terms of fleet planning.

I'm with Mike, I'll believe it when I see it
 
Greg
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:32 am

About six weeks ago they said they had terminated discussions with Boeing and were working exclusively with Airbus on the order.

Then, about two weeks or so ago, Branson said they were, in fact, working with both manufacturers.....

Makes it about as clear as mud, right? I think it's likely tied in with his larger purchase of 340-600's or 777-300's.

In this case, I'm pulling for Boeing all the way. They deserve to have a stellar year!
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:37 am

So what do you guys think, does the error in the stated number of aircraft required negate the credibility in stating that the order went to Airbus? Does the one error affect the credibility of the rest of the information? Does it just show that the information is outdated and the author didn't keep up on their research?
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
Vorticity
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:42 am

Hard to say without knowing the sources for their information. They may have grabbed the information for the article from different sources at different times. It's hard to say since the # of aircraft from whom guesses keep fluctuating with time.

I really wouldn't consider it an indication that they've won, but I wouldn't be holding my breath for a Boeing order  Big grin ... unfortunately
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
caetravlr
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:46 am

I think that I am with Vorticity on this one. It could still possibly go either way, but it seems to be leaning in favor of Airbus. I am still pulling for Boeing though.  Smile
A woman drove me to drink and I didn't have the decency to thank her. - W.C. Fields
 
canoecarrier
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:17 am

I guess my question is, given the current orders on the books, if Branson makes his order for A320's tomorrow, when will his roll off the line. And, visa versa if he orders the 737.

Some of this has to be tied to what he thinks will be the start date of V-USA. If he can't have the fleet numbers by that date with one company, he'll negotiate with the other. I'd think the delivery date would be a sticking point.
The beatings will continue until morale improves
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:36 am

I do not think that sources should be a problem for us, simply because there have been so many articles about Virgina USA ordering Airbus. Origianlly, the articles mentioned Airbus 320-family or Boeing 737NG being selected, but now, they all seem to mention Airbus.

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
ba319-131
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:39 am

The Sunday Times(UK) had a similar story 2-3 weeks ago,also suggesting Airbus would supply the aircraft,though it only stated A320 series without specific breakdowns between model types.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
planemaker
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:41 am

It may have absolutely no bearing with the VS contest but Airbus did announce last week that the 320 production rate was going up by at least 20% next year.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:18 am

The 'reports' have definitely been fluctuating.

First, to the best of my knowledge, the number of airplanes being discussed has always hovered around 50 frames. OTOH, there has been no official break-down of this number between firm/option/leased, so different numbers have been reported in different sources. The last I heard, the majority of the aircraft will be leased, at least to begin with.

As already mentioned, VirginUS was reported to be 'only talking to Airbus' about a month ago. However, lately this has been denied, and Virgin has stated that both Boeing and Airbus are still in the running. These reports, whether intentionally or not, have coincided with stronger and more reliable rumors that Virgin Atlantic is very close to a 777 order (initially -300ERs, but possibly also -200ERs). Whether these orders will actually be tied together remains to be seen.

IMO, the narrowbody order will come down to timing. IIRC, VirginUS wants to start operations fairly quickly, and would therefore need aircraft ASAP. According to Boeing, 95% of 2005 production has been sold out. Apparently, this was the primary (though, of course, certainly not the only) reason Jetstar went with the A320. Airbus reportedly still has some empy A320 production slots for mid-2005, mostly reserved to leasors. This makes me think the A320 will get this order, regardless of the VS widebody decision (which at the end of the day, I believe Airbus will still win).

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
Vorticity
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:22 am

Good points on the production schedule, I saw the article about A320 production going up. I'm beginning to really question how wise it was to slow down 737 line as much as they did.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
Hamlet69
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:25 am

BTW - Boeing is also talking about increasing 737 production, though I don't believe in the order of 20%.

As I always like to say, time will tell.

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
dl021
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:41 am

It is funny how Virgin/ Branson changes their tune about selection right about the same time that a controversy is brewing concerning foreign ownership in a US airline. Is it possible Branson is raising a carrot for the government mule?

WHether he is or not, how will he be able to start an airline in the states without US citizenship?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
Vorticity
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:43 am

I'd certainly like to see them increase 737 production, guess I'll keep my metaphorical fingers crossed.

As far as Branson changing his tune all the time, I get the feeling it's done to try and sneak out with the best deal possible. I think he probably knows how to work Airbus and Boeing.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
kl911
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:59 am

I've said from the beginning that it would be a mix of 319's and 320's.

For the passengers it's the best product, and for VS as well, since they are already an Airbus customer and might get discount on there future longhaul fleet.

Besides, they are so beautifull!!
 
starrion
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:05 am

You never know.

Branson could be waving a big carrot at Boeing for the 773 and a 50 ship 738 order for the best discounts.

And this passenger, who might be using the product, would much prefer to be on a 738 thank you very much.
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
jlp123
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:32 am

Concerning the number of A/C needed for their operation, I've read that they plan to purchase 30 and lease 20. This may be the source of the confusion, but it's definitely 50 planes.
 
RT514
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:40 am

WHether he is or not, how will he be able to start an airline in the states without US citizenship?

One would not require citizenship. When it comes to immigration policies, there are several "ways in" concerning business, particularly when it comes to creating jobs and employing locals. Regulations concerning competition, foreign vs. domestic ownership reules, etc. are much more pertinent here than nationality.


I think he probably knows how to work Airbus and Boeing.

I think so too. Perhaps better than anyone else around.
 
S12PPL
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:19 am

I think Airbus offers a beter IFE situation than Boeing does, IF VUSA is planning to do a JetBlue and put PTV's in every seat. If VUSA wants IFE and a folding screen, well they could just go with either manufacturer. As much of a Boeing fan as I am....It would guess if they go with PTV's, Airbus will be announced....
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PHXinterrupted
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:55 am

"For the passengers it's the best product, and for VS as well, since they are already an Airbus customer and might get discount on there future longhaul fleet."

I would guess most American passengers would prefer a more reliable plane such as the 737NG over a 319/320.
Keepin' it real.
 
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scbriml
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:12 am

I would guess most American passengers would prefer a more reliable plane such as the 737NG over a 319/320.

I would guess most American passengers wouldn't care what type of plane they fly on as long as the fare's cheap.

I can't understand why so many Americans fly on Airbus planes every day  Insane
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dbo861
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:50 am

"WHether he is or not, how will he be able to start an airline in the states without US citizenship?"

That's why he's trying to find people to buy shares of the airline so that he'll have less than 50% ownership, or else it would be cabotage. It doesn't matter if he doesn't have U.S. citizenship, as long as he doesn't own more than 49% of the airline.
 
Ken777
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:17 am

When Branson started Virgin Blue in Australia he had no problems leasing 737s on a short term basis until Boeing could deliver the ones he ordered. That may well be the situation here, for both A & B.

I have a feeling that Virgin is very good at playing A & B against each other and we'll have to wait until the fat lady sings to know the situation.
 
planemaker
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:11 am

This article was in today's the NY Times:

Virgin U.S. head says new airline will be all-American

Virgin Group's proposed new U.S. discount carrier will be entirely American and brand-new, according to its head, Frederick W. Reid. Reid, who was the former president of Delta Air Lines, said he wasn't worried about starting up a new airline in a competitive atmosphere. "I am not going to decide whether the industry needs another airline," Reid said. "The customers will decide."

Mr. Reid said the airline expected to announce its management team and its choice of airplane vendor as soon as next week. Mr. Reid said that both Boeing and Airbus had offered "very good" packages and would not say if either had an inside track.


http://www.nytimes.com/2004/06/08/business/08air.html
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Aloha717200
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RE: Article: Virgin USA Order Goes To Airbus?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:35 am

I'm thinking it will go to Airbus as well. As far as personal preference, depends really. If the choice is between the 738 or A320, I sure hope they go with the a320.

but if it's 73G they'd be using, I'd rather it be boeing. I don't care to fly on 738s...they're the only airliner that consistently make me airsick, must be the way it flies or something. That's just personal bias.

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