Tasha
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What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:57 am

What is the matter with Boeing?? For over thirty years they have produced the largest, heaviest, and fastest (subsonic) airliner, the 747. Now all over a sudden they are going to concede this to Airbus and launch the 7e7 series.  Sad

Sometimes you also have to factor PRIDE. Airbus is going to have a huge advantage in advertising: This is what a Puny 744 looks like next to our A380!  Wow!

Is there no stretch left in the 747? I remember reading that years ago, in the mid 1970's, the U.S. Air Force seriously stretched their C141 aircraft by adding large sections in front and behind the wing.

Sometimes pride is a factor as well. Could a 747 not be stretched to compete with, and perhaps eclispe the A380? I think so... sometimes it comes down to that little five letter word: PRIDE

Tasha Big grin
 
Guest

RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:59 am

Ohh dude, the main objective of a business is to be profitable. Once you're safe finacially that is when you can start going for pride.
 
kl911
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:02 am

Tasha..........

The 380 is PRIDE............... ( for us Europeans)  Laugh out loud
 
SEAPete
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:07 am

Nothing is wrong with Boeing. I believe that they have a really good sense of what is going on in the market these days and building another super jumbo doesn't make sense. They learned from the mistakes of the DC-10 vs L1011 battle where there wasn't enough market to support two suppliers in the same market space. The 744 is the only thing between the A330/7e7/777 market and the A380 market.

Having a profitable company is defignately a source of pride!

Cheers!

Pete
SEA No other place like it
 
Vorticity
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:13 am

Most types of PRIDE don't cost millions and millions of dollars in Research and Development. Throwing that kinda money at pride is just plain stupid. Boeing has a responcibility to their share holders and their employees, to make intelligent financial and long term planning decisions.

Nothing wrong with Boeing
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
goboeing
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:23 am

What is the matter with you?

They'll be much more proud of a plane that sells and pleases passengers than they would have of a plane that crowds terminals and just doesn't make much sense anymore.

Nick
 
kl911
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:24 am

'''Boeing has a responcibility to their share holders and their employees, to make intelligent financial and long term planning decisions.'''

So does Airbus......... Think of something better..
 
Guest

RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:25 am

To be fair, i think both the 7E7 and the A380 make financial sense.
 
boeingbus
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RE: How Did You Find A.net

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:16 am

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary. In the past, other than the Concord, everything they have done has been mediocre... good planes but not anything to rave about! At the same time, Boeing has revolutionized the industry with the 747, 727, 737, 767 and 777 in its debut.

So heck, the Europeans / Airbus need the spotlight at some point. I am willing to give them this shot and honor. Doesn’t bother me one bit and shouldn’t with anyone.

For ONCE, let them spend their mighty Euros on airport mitigation and planning that is required to build a aircraft of this magnitude. We all know Boeing had to with the 747.

I am 100% certain the Boeing is not going to concede the super jumbo aircraft, because it the ever growing population is not going to stop anytime soon.

So lets all whish Airbus well as we are going to learn from their costly mistakes and errors. We all know that Airbus did for the last 30 years when Boeing was the aircraft trend setter.

In the meantime, Boeing is creating a true airplane platform for the future based on E.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
MidnightMike
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:19 am

Tasha

Dude, that is your personal opinion, which is good, if the airlines really want another update to the 747, the offer was put on the table by Boeing. Boeing put out a press release that they would be willing to stretch the 747 and use some of the new technolgy that was developed in the 7E7 program. If you go to the Boeing 7E7 website, you can see what they are planning to do with the 747, once again, if the airlines want it. Boeing, nor Airbus would build an airplane without the backing of the airlines willing to purchase it. Just watch what is going on with the 7E7, they are gaining orders first.
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Vorticity
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:35 am

So does Airbus......... Think of something better..

I was in no way implying that Airbus's decision to launch the A380 project was irresponcible or a poor decision. It was a bit of gamble of a project, and the way it looks now, it may pay off.

My comments were directed at creating a stretch 747 simply for a matter of pride in having a large aircraft. Boeing has smart people working the numbers, as do Airbus. At the time 747X was being explored, they spoke with customers, and it didn't appear there was enough demand at the time to make it profitable.

All I was saying is that Boeing won't through out millions and millions of dollars for pride. They'll make a judgement based on profitability, and long term profitability. Not every choice a company makes is right, but that will be the primary consideration, and it's an intelligent one.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
ualonghaul
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:03 pm

Hmm. Boeing had the largest for over 30 years, and Airbus still has not built the first of the "new" largest. It also takes the funding of major governments to build this new plane, while Boeing was able to finance through the private sector. Interesting..............

Maybe boeing realizes that not every major airport wants to rebuild gates so a larger plane can fit in it?
 
rj777
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:08 pm

I think that the 7E7 is something that, like the 777, Boeing will be very proud of.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 2:56 pm

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary.

How is the A380 revolutionary? How is it a radical departure from previous thinking?
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Ralgha
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 3:14 pm

It's not, but Airbus would like us to think it is. Woo, I'm gonna get flamed for that one!  Big thumbs up
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Guest

RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:00 pm

We'll see how proud people are of the 380 when it fails FAA certification for evacuation. Airbus has been told by the FAA that they need to find a "slower" way to get people off the second deck. Using the proposed system, people will approach 50 MPH, yes, 50 MPH on their way down. The 747 has the same issue, but there are fewer people involved allowing a tighter sleeve which slows the pax.

I guess if the crash doesn't kill you, the evac will. Say what you will. This is a big problem for Airbus right now.
 
keesje
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:07 pm

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary

Nonsense.

I remember first entering the cockpit of an A320 in the late eighties.

Me and a Boeing mechanic felt like entering battle star Galactica.


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Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Fagerström



And it was at that time, as was the fly by wire, side sticks, materials etc ...

Compare it to the 767, 737-400 and 747-400 at that time ...
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
leelaw
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:34 pm

Boeing has made mistakes and will make more, likewise Airbus. Hopefully, both these industrial behemoths will make the enough good decisions to survive in a highly cyclical, complicated, and volatile marketplace. The petty A v. B squabbles get tiresome at times, this industry requires at least two vibrant manufacturers for obvious reasons...Industrial monopolies are rarely a good idea. Even the former Soviet Union had multiple design bureaus.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Guest

RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:45 pm

Goboeing: "What is the matter with you?

They'll be much more proud of a plane that sells and pleases passengers than they would have of a plane that crowds terminals and just doesn't make much sense anymore.

Nick"

Come on, Nick - it sounds you are jealous of A success.
Don't be too angry, also for B the world is getting better - they have plans for building modern 7E7.

B had a unique plane, the 747 - when an airline wanted to buy one of them, they had to take some smaller too, otherwise the delivery of the 747 would (strange, isn't it) take a very long time.
Now when the 380 is coming, B has to be more innovative and I think they are on a good way with the 7E7.
 
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solnabo
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:20 pm

Boeings 747 was a make or break for them in the 60´s!
I think its great that the monopoly of the Jumbo is broken soon, the 35 y/o "Queen of the skies" is about to be european, btw US dont have royals  Big grin
Lets see how it goes with A388! I hope for a hit-machine in many years to come.

Michael//SE  Big thumbs up
"Airbus, discovering the next 100 years of flight"
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
greasespot
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:08 pm

Even if you were to jump from the upper deck door with out a slide when the human body will not hit the ground at 50mph. It is impossible. The laws of physics will not allow it. So when you factor in the drag that the slide induces the passengers will come shooting off it at much slower speed. Mind you they will still be a human bowling ball but not at 50 mph.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Gman94
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:14 pm

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary.

How is the A380 revolutionary? How is it a radical departure from previous thinking?


There hasn't been a revolutionary aircraft built since Concorde. Also if want revolutionary European aircraft try, the Comet, the Harrier jump jet and Concorde to name a few.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
md80fanatic
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:09 pm

The Titanic was borne of PRIDE as well. Please keep this in mind.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:39 pm

Boeingbus,

For ONCE, let the Europeans build an aircraft that is revolutionary


Are you one of those radical Boeing fans living by their mantra: 'I will never set foot on an Airbus plane' or what?

You'd really have to open your eyes, man!

Have a look at this:

The flightdeck of a A319, a 1980s (!) design which still looks like a spaceship everytime I set foot in it:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Peter Fagerström



And compare it to this competing Boeing B737-500 from the early 1990s, which looks like flying a connie with jet engines!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Krzysztof Skowronski [epwa_spotters]



Well I guess you are right.. If you have to start from the latter to get up to date again, it truly is a revolution for you!
 
boeingbus
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RE: TAP Introduce New B/C Lie-Flat Seats On A310-A

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:46 pm

Yes, it's going to be long tube with wings so it’s not technically revolutionary... But when it comes down to economics and volume of passengers I sure think it is!!!

Does anyone have a grasp of how HUGE this aircraft really is??? How about the level of investment required to fly this beast from acquisition, maintenance, insurance, fuel, catering, attendants, and the support staff at airports to just have a single flight. This is all new to the airliners! Only the airliners with the best business plans will continue with the A380. Those for those who fail, better have a contingency plan or government bail out ready.

Now anyone question why BA has not adopted the A380? I believe it's all about the level of risk associated that has never been seen.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
leelaw
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:53 pm

I say ditto to BoeingBus's analysis! But the "enthusiast" in me can't wait until the big bird takes wing!
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
akelley728
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:57 pm

Remember the old saying that PRIDE comes before the fall?

Airline manufacturers are not in it anymore for pride. They are in it to make profits. Both Airbus and Boeing have decided that the A380 and 7E7 respectively will make money - pride had nothing to do with these aircraft launches.
 
boeingbus
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RE: TAP Introduce New B/C Lie-Flat Seats On A310-A

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:59 pm

Sabenapilot,

We all know that Airbus for the last 30 years had to practically give away aircraft in order to sell those flashy buttons and screens that you boast. Obviously, this was never a selling point for Airbus.

Your "European spaceship" was supported by your government whilst the American Space ship was supported by the US. But the difference is that the American space shuttle actually went to space.

Boeing currently is and was always at a premium above Airbus so don’t kid your self and try to persuade everyone by showing a flashy flight deck. I was actually giving Airbus a lot of credit and again wish them the best with the A380. I have flown Airbus craft on many occasions so don’t label me.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
juanchie
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:03 pm

I think it is extremely smart to let Airbus take this market. I mean really, how many markets in the world could sustain an A380 service routinely. I dont even think there are 5 airports in the US to hold one of those bad boys. The A380 will probably do well as it is the only airplane of its sice, but If boeing were to follow, it would flood the market with aircraft we dont need.

The 7E7 is genius though. Its going to be basically, a better model to replace the 767-300, 767-200 and 757. If this plane is good, which it looks like it will be, think how many airlines would order it, especially in the USA. In a time when airlines are lookign to simplify fleets, this a is a genius move to replce three aircraft with basically one. I believe the 7E7 is going to be as successful as or better than the A320 series and 737.

In aviation, we have to remember, its not about how cool it is but making money and taking people where they want to go economically and efficiently.
God, forgive me for who I am, and help me be the man I want to be.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:36 pm

Airbus for the last 30 years had to practically give away aircraft in order to sell those flashy buttons and screens that you boast...

Come on, do you actually believe this silly comment? Then how come EADS is making profits? By giving away planes for free?  Nuts Let's all ask for some of these 'flashy Airbusses' and start our own airline then! Hey, they are for free Guys! Take as much as you like! We have to get rid of them before the end of this year, because next year, we'll be making new ones just for the heck of it!  Nuts



[Edited 2004-06-08 16:38:06]
 
Cessna172RG
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:56 pm

"I believe that they have a really good sense of what is going on in the market these days"

Opinionated statements don't bother me. But...

They have a really good sense in the market?

Let's see...

767-400...a niche aircraft
777-300ER...another possible niche aircraft
737-900...niche aircraft that killed the 757, talk about shooting your own foot...
747-400ER...a niche aircraft

Yes, they're trying to sell planes, but instead of putting out something solid, they are squandering and trying to cater to niches that the airlines have. It's not bad, they still make money from it, but I wouldn't call selling 20 of these planes over 2,000 737s an exact success. It's like you've just fallen into the water from a boat and you're trying to find that life ring but how do you get it? If you thrash too much, you'll push it away...

In my opinion, Boeing needs to stop thrashing and start concentrating.

In my opinion.
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
 
RT514
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:56 pm

We all know that Airbus for the last 30 years had to practically give away aircraft

An empty hypothesis at best. I'll go with the flow, though... OK, we all know that Boeing has bought Airbus aircraft to make a sale too (not just an empty hypothesis, by the way). So what? What's your point?
Best Buy is "practically giving away" DVD players. Sounds good to me.
They won't buy my three year old VCR to make a sale, though.

Boeing currently is and was always at a premium above Airbus

That way of thinking was exactly what was a significant contributing factor to Airbus' success.
 
boeingbus
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RE: TAP Introduce New B/C Lie-Flat Seats On A310-A

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:56 pm

Sabena Pilot please, it’s Ok... you have your opinions and I will have mine... You can continue to believe that Airbus never received a subsidy from the European governments and you can continue to believe that Airbus doesn't offer airlines "to good to be true" pricing. I agree to disagree... that's all...

Again, you may not realize it but I'm a fan of Airbus - always was... Naturally, being American I am biased a bit for Boeing.

I think it's great for Boeing to have Airbus around as it creates an incentive to produce better aircraft.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
iluv2pilot
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:02 am

Cessna you state:

767-400...a niche aircraft

May be true, but fills the need and made Boeing money.
777-300ER...another possible niche aircraft

No way, will become the dominant two engine long haul aircraft.

737-900...niche aircraft that killed the 757, talk about shooting your own foot...

It's cheaper to product variants of one aircraft then two compeletly different ones. Love the 57, but smart business move.


747-400ER...a niche aircraft

Right........... That's like saying the 172 was a niche aircraft, for training only.


 
Guest

RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:24 am

Airbus for the last 30 years had to practically give away aircraft in order to sell those flashy buttons and screens that you boast...

Boeing currently is and was always at a premium above Airbus so don’t kid your self and try to persuade everyone by showing a flashy flight deck.


what crap, Airbus make sound planes there is no doubt about it, many airlines would go to them regarless of price. Saying you're an Airbus fan or whatever doesnt suddenly justify your statement.
 
boeingbus
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RE: TAP Introduce New B/C Lie-Flat Seats On A310-A

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:49 am

That's so true Roberta! I never doubted Airbus of whether they built good planes or not. Some go with Airbus regardless of price. But how many more or maybe most go with Airbus because of price??? price will always be a driver...

Airbus fan or not... I am merely stating facts. just look into the effects that the 747, 727, 767 & 737 had on the market on its introduction - this boeing aircraft opened new destinations, new levels of efficiencies, the the LCC... etc...

So back to my original point its time for Airbus to set the A380 as their shinning example - that is all I was trying to say!

Damn, can't people just get along on here w/o putting others down.


Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
Guest

RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:06 am

the 727 had no competitor nor did the 747.
the 737NG drew level with the A320. Performance wise they are probably the 2 most similarly matched planes in the business today but the A320 was out setting examples way before the 737NG's. FBW being an example that boeing used on the 777.

then look what effect the A332 had on the 767.
and the effect the A321 had on the 757.
You cannot just write Airbus off that easily, just cus they're generous with their cash doesnt mean they make sub-par planes.

And Boeing have been no strangers to heavy discounts and government influence

off the top of my head;


SQ PIA EL-AL

have all benefitted.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:45 am

A380 is a niche product, and Boeing would waste VAST amounts of resources on developing a head-to-head competitor. Two manufacturers would overcrowd the market, making it a disaster for both companies.

Geeze, I thought it was simple, but according to you guys, it's rather complicated...
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
Guest

RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:47 am

Even if you were to jump from the upper deck door with out a slide when the human body will not hit the ground at 50mph. It is impossible. The laws of physics will not allow it. So when you factor in the drag that the slide induces the passengers will come shooting off it at much slower speed. Mind you they will still be a human bowling ball but not at 50 mph.

Really? Tell that to the FAA who has already commented on the concerns to Airbus over the issue due do occurances observed with test dummies exceeding 55 MPH in the evac mock up.
 
AvObserver
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:46 am

Tasha, enough folks here have jumped on you but you made the whole A vs. B thing a race to see who should have the biggest airplane. Not even Airbus (I hope) buys into that. Since they see a bigger large airplane market in their forecasts, it's only logical they invest in it while Boeing invests in a market it thinks has greater potential. The 747, while it may have upgrade potential, can't be stretched to be an equal to the A380; it's older, smaller design would preclude such a direct competition. Boeing's planned upgrades, if it can sell them, will keep the 747 in a niche positioned below the A388 but above the A346 and 773ER. If enough airlines are interested in a dedicated 450-seater or a slightly bigger 747F, the proposed Advanced model should keep the 747 line going for awhile. To truly compete with the A380, however, a new design is needed and Boeing feels the market won't for many years yet be large enough to invest in such an aircraft. Their best bet, now, is to hone in the mid-sized transport market which they see as being more lucrative and let Airbus have the crown for largest airplane (for now).
 
Tasha
Topic Author
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:44 am

AvObserver,

I spoke of pride. Pride of achievement; Pride of producing an icon; Pride that comes when awe struck passengers board or view your aircraft. I can remember the first time I flew in a B747. I was a little girl, I guess about ten years old. It was a military charter flight from Frankfurt to Dover AFB, and we had to board using stairs as the aircraft was parked on the ramp away from the terminal building. I was completely in awe of the aircrafts sheer size. The same thing is going to happen when the A380 arrives; this very thing happened in 1970 when the B747 started displacing the B707's.

Pride isn't everything, but market performance is also important. It would seem to me that a 747 could be modified for much less; maintained for much less; and redesigned for much less; than it is costing Airbus (and the European Governments that support the company) to develop the A380.

I still feel that Boeing is about to be left behind. I believe that the "hub" airport concept in use currently is far more efficient than the concept of direct flights from smaller airports which an aircraft as the B7e7 is ideal for.

So the A380 is huge. So what?? Airports will adapt. Don't get me wrong, I am a Boeing fan. I fear that Boeing is not only missing the bus, but already has missed the bus. I know that the B7e7 will be a huge success for them, but still... a severely stretched version of the B747 would be awesome.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
md80fanatic
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:19 am

The pride of making a plane that doesn't fit on existing taxiways. Don't call me a Boeing freak either because I definately have an issue with them as well(cancelling my md80, ***tards!).  Love
 
LVZXV
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 9:42 am

Tasha:

I wouldn't worry. It's not as if the A380 is about to clinch a beauty prize from the 747. Time will tell if the A380 gains the worldwide recognition of the original "Jumbo". I don't think it will be the same. Do I have an axe to grind with Airbus? Not at all. It's just the A380 is hardly aesthectically pleasing in Classical terms, shall we say. It's an amorphous, overweight winged bus. It's like those hideous 20-storey cruise liners. The FAA should send it on a weight-watchers programme or a Fat Camp to shed those extra 10 tons. It's plain OBESE. And that sharing a cabin with that number of passengers can turn anyone into an unpleasant misanthrope. I respect Boeing for pulling out of the "bigger is better" contest. Shame they didn't do the same in the "biggest dick" contest for which Boeing ran the 739, 753, 764 and 773, which all lost to Airbus's A346. Pathetic!

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
ScottB
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RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:20 pm

As others have said, it made little sense for Boeing to jump into the VLA market. They had the only product (the 744-400) in the space, so developing a new VLA would do nothing aside from steal sales from their own product. And developing an entirely new VLA in response to the A380 would ensure the failure of both products given Boeing's market forecasts (which are not terribly optimistic on the possibility for break-even sales for just one manufacturer in the space).

A stretch of the 747 was proposed to several airlines, but none seemed to be interested -- likely due to the cost and what were probably some very attractive launch prices offered by Airbus. And it would have been foolish to develop a stretched 747 without airlnies committing to the program first.

The availability of below-market financing offered by European governments is a huge factor as well. Reducing the cost of capital for developing the new type means that Airbus can offer lower prices than Boeing could ever hope to -- especially if they had to go to the capital markets to finance what was viewed to be a relatively risky project. When one considers that Airbus would also not be allowed to fail if the A380 had been a complete flop, the amount of risk involved is easily justified for Airbus. If Boeing were to risk that amount of capital and be wrong, they'd see a huge decline in their market valuation if not even bankruptcy.

Even now it's hard to say if the A380 will be a success, since Airbus claims break-even is 250 frames (but who knows where acceptable return on investment lies) AND many of the obvious candidates for orders already have made theirs. And I will take the controversial position that break-even *is* a failure in the financial sense for the project, since the several billion dollars invested in the project could have been placed into far more conservative ventures or investments and produced money instead of breaking even.

I don't have any doubt that Airbus will be successful in creating the A380, and I will be the first to acknowledge that some routes could use this plane right now! I have my doubts that they will meet their performance targets initially based on the company's track record with other models. I question whether it will be more fuel efficient than existing widebodies given some of the figures I've seen. I have some doubts as to how competitive a product it will be with the euro above $1.20, and I just don't see the global market for it being as large as Airbus claims (or hopes) given the number of orders it has garnered so far. Many early 747's and 747-400's were bought for their range, not just capacity, and 747 orders had been weak for a while before Airbus decided to launch the A380. Now, one might argue that weak 747 orders were due in part to airlines waiting for the A380, but that then implies that the pent-up demand would have been satisfied by now.

As for "pride" -- shareholders and Wall Street just don't care that much about pride if it means the company is losing money.
 
Alitalia744
Posts: 3777
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 8:22 am

RE: What Is The Matter With Boeing?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:26 pm

One again a few people have managed to turn this into a ridiculous A vs. B war.

Get over it people. Boeing builds fantastic planes, as does Airbus. They'll both be around and will continue to thrive based on the actions of the other.

Kmart is selling a life via their Blue Light Special...I suggest some go there.
Some see lines, others see between the lines.