aa777jr
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Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:58 am

Just talked with my good friend/instructor. He is a senior Captain with AA and is a Air Crew Checkman. he just finished his training in New Mexico with Army Delta and Navy Seals and is now packing a SK 40 cal on his hip when he flys. He flys mostly to Europe but also flys to Hawaii. That is good news for all the scared travellers out there. Just thought it was awesome to hear what he had to say about the training. Cheers.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.
 
NIKV69
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:00 pm

I think it's great, I think every commercial airline pilot in the USA should be armed!
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
NWA742
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:25 pm

I'm also in agreement with having armed pilots on board.

While, of course, Federal Air Marshalls are a better choice for the first line of defense, as nobody knows who they are, the pilots having a gun to defend the cockpit is pretty much the last line of defense.




-NWA742
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flymia
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 12:57 pm

I thinks it is a good thing the Pilots have guns. I am 100% for it.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 1:49 pm

I'm gonna get a gun rack for my CRJ.  Smile
Chicks dig winglets.
 
FinnWings
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:23 pm

You must be kidding guys, right?

Do you really think that gun in the cockpit is solution for anything? We aren't talking about a car now, we are talking about an AIRCRAFT. Do you have EVEN an idea how big damage even one bullet might cause in the cockpit. Same thing with cabin as well...

I wouldn't be on any flight as a passenger or cockpit crew if I know that someone is carrying a weapon there. Period.

By the way, flight crew goes through security check prior the departure, so they can't carry scissors, knives, guns on board. So same items are illegal for flight crew and passengers, therefore pilots can't carry weapons either.

FinnWings
 
L-188
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:35 pm

Hell I think the passengers should be packing heat too. Finnwings. I could lower my ammo standards to carry blazers in my .45 for the trip to protect the pressure vessel.

Frankly I would feel safer if this announce was being made on the flights

http://www.odoriferous.com/pilots.php
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backfire
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:01 pm

As someone who used to train people in the use of handguns, this idea disturbs me enormously.

This isn't Hollywood. Put aside all those images of cops gunning down bad guys at a hundred paces. A handgun is an inaccurate and unpredictable weapon, even at fairly close range, when fired in a high-stress, dynamic situation. Mix that with the cockpit environment and I don't care what "training" you've had - you're more likely to kill your first officer, or even yourself, in the process.
 
L-188
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:06 pm

A handgun is an inaccurate and unpredictable weapon, even at fairly close range, when fired in a high-stress, dynamic situation

Agreed, which is one of the reasons why so many old west gunfights ended in draws with nobody getting hit.

The alchol involved also tended to have an effect to that end too.

But I'll take the pistol. I don't think my scoped 1903A3 would be the appropriate weapon to carry on board either.

I could go with my Mossberg 500 with the 20 inch slug barrel on it, but those 3" Brenneke slugs I carry for bears, would probably do too much damage.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
JMChladek
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:58 pm

This isn't new. Apparently the first class of qualified arms carrying pilots has already graduated and are flying the US skies right now according to a recent History Channel show I saw last month (March 2003 is I believe when the first class graduated). They were trained by professional military and law enforcement personnel and I believe were pre-screened ahead of time. So these aren't loose cannons on the other side of the cockpit door but people that have been well trained and fully briefed as to when the need arises to use deadly force. And internationally this isn't new either as El Al has had armed security and I believe armed pilots for years. Of course in El Al's case, all of their pilots are IDF/AF reservists anyway with military firearms training and years of experience to back them.

As for bullets and aircraft, the ammo used is frangible, meaning it will penetrate a person, but will shatter on impact with something harder. So they won't shoot the cabin full of holes. Granted, the bullets could strike any person, but if somebody did penetrate the cockpit door to get at the pilots, then he his going to be more or less the only thing that gets hit by any shots fired from the cockpit as the frangible ammo helps prevent ricochets.

They aren't meant to be the first line of defense, but rather the final option if all else fails. In my case, I do feel safer knowing that there might be a pilot with a gun and the proper training to use it if the need arises. But a lot of other things have to go wrong first before it gets to the point of a pilot having to resort to deadly force to protect the lives of his crew and passengers.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 7:34 pm

U guys makes me sick!
Hopefully €U-pilots NEVER EVER carry guns in a closed metaltube!
I thought US was aware that it´s a new millenium. This sounds like some "lone ranger"crap or matiné movie. Guess America gets a civil war if the president stop the right to be armed!
Sad, very sad....

Mike//SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
greasespot
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:13 pm

Ummmm a single bullet will not cause an airplane to explosive decompress. There are huge holes in the airframe that do not give the airplane problems. The biggest one being the outflow valve. Plus all airplanes already leak from other areas like cargo door seals.....A main door seals...etc. I am willing to bet that a bullet hole would not even make a noticible pressure bump. Beside i have seen the results of a window coming out in flight( i was on the ground) and there was no other structural damage other than the window was missing and the nose cowl had a tear in it.

GS
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
teva
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:29 pm

Are the US pilots authorized to have their guns when flying to Europe?

I thought it was illegal, because when they leave the aircraft, they are in countries where it is illegal to carry guns.

Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
NIKV69
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:41 pm

It is absolutely amazing how people from these countries that never have any incidents of terrorism or hijackings can sit there and say pilots should not be armed. All of you in this thread who oppose armed pilots come live here for a while, in the real world. Then see how you feel. Every pilot of an American commercial airliner should have a gun. Without a doubt.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
teva
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:50 pm

NIKV69
you say "It is absolutely amazing how people from these countries that never have any incidents of terrorism or hijackings can sit there and say pilots should not be armed."

Are you serious? do you know what you are talking about?
One of the latest was the AF airbus in Algers. The real objective of the terrorists wa the TOur Eiffel, and if you visit Paris today, you will see it is still there. Our police special teams have done a very good job in Marseille.
After those events, did the government authorize guns in cokpit? NO.
Did the pilots request them? NO. They are firmly against.

Everyone has a job. The job of the pilots is to fly. So, I can accept to have marshalls on board an aircraft. But no guns for the pilots.

Had the guns been allowed in the 90s, today, Fedex would probalby have disappeared.
Teva
Ecoute les orgues, Elles jouent pour toi...C'est le requiem pour un con
 
carduelis
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:03 pm

NIKV69

All of you in this thread who oppose armed pilots come live here for a while, in the real world.

If the 'real world' is such that guns have to be carried in the United States, then you can keep it, and perhaps some wider travel to more civilised countries might broaden the mind.

Guns and commercial aircraft do not mix. They should not be carried on aircraft at any time!


Per Ardua ad Astra! ........ Honi Soit Qui Mal y Pense!
 
Gman94
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:06 pm

It is absolutely amazing how people from these countries that never have any incidents of terrorism or hijackings can sit there and say pilots should not be armed. All of you in this thread who oppose armed pilots come live here for a while, in the real world. Then see how you feel. Every pilot of an American commercial airliner should have a gun. Without a doubt.

NIKV69

I think it's you who should live in the real world and look at countries especially in Europe who have decades of experience dealing with terrorism not just 5 minutes. Then you will understand how abhorrent it is for us to have guns brought on to commercial airliners, you may as well gift wrap them and put them straight in to a terrorists hands.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
oerk
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 9:34 pm

The original poster said the pilot flew mostly to Europe. It would not suprise me if they were being carried on flights to the UK, we have a tendency to make bilateral agreements on counter-terror matters with the USA. If it makes them feel safer, then hey, thats their decision - terrorism is all about fear anyway. They just need to be sure the public at large is going to see it the same way and feel safer too, otherwise it might be counter-productive.
 
dl021
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:03 pm

OK, The fastest way to get people riled up is to talk about firearms or abortion. Thankfully we chose firearms here..I understand it better.

1. The FAA over a year ago authorized with congressional backing qualified, volunteer pilots to carry an FAA/DHS approved and supplied pistol as a means of last ditch cockpit security. The pilot must undergo extensive training by Federal Air Marshals, the same LE officers who now ride on selected flights with firearms to stop terrorists in the act. These pilots who are authorized carry their firearms onboard in a locked case, and keep it in the cockpit. They are only to be used in the case of an attempt at ingress to the cockpit by a terrorist or other criminal who is trying to take over the aircraft. The first thing any pilot will do now is stay behind the bulletproof doors and land the airplane at the nearest field so the aircraft cannot be turned into a large cruise missile. This has been done due to the fact that THE RULES HAVE CHANGED! When the terrorists quit hijacking for fun, profit and free trips to sunny CUba, they arranged it so that no terrorist would ever take over an aircraft from docile, compliant passengers and crew.

2. The firearms use a special typeof ammunition that was designed especially for use inside aircraft. This ammo breaks up the instant it hits something hard. It will do significant damage to flesh, but in most cases will not be able to penetrate the skin of an airplane. Even if it did, explosive decompression is not guaranteed. THe pilots would already be flying their craft to a lower altitude to whichever divert field they were closest to/ATC sent them toward.

3. The idea that a terrorist or criminal can easily take away a firearm from a trained individual is a myth perpetuated by some martial arts cinema and the anit-firearms lobby. If the cockpit door is being knocked down with a fireaxe or something, you may rest assured that the crew inside will be waiting to fire at the terrorists, and the situation is already bad because the terrorists have already been able to subdue the entire passenger load in spite of the fact that people now know that the intent of terrorists is suicide and murder, not profit and hostage taking. So quit prepping yourself for Stockholm Syndrome and ensure you are ready for all possibilities if you get on an airplane, train, or walk through your major city...including self-defence. Even in Sweden, where the Mr. Palme (God rest his soul) was not ready for domestic terror, one must consider all the possibilities if one is to accept responsibility for onesself.

4. Teva, and and others, a permis d'porte armes (please pardon my poor spelling and grammaire) is obtainable for France, how else do bodyguards and the like have the right to carry them? Pilots are by definition highly trained, excellent reflexes and physical condition. Many are former officers in the military with previous firearms training. What exactly is your problem with the idea that their is a well trained, last line of defence, in case the terrorists are not stupid enough to land the plane? The incident in Marseilles, while it went well for the GIGN team that secured the aircraft and rescued the hostages, was only possible because the terrorists had not yet adopted the practice of flying into buildings. This was back in '94 at Marignane, and it followed what was then the standard practice when you have terrorists who may be willing to die, but really aren't planning on it.

Remember, it is different now, and the pros cannot always be there to defend us, and I do not remember agreeing to subordinate my right to defend myself when others cannot.

SO take it easy
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bucky707
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:24 pm

"Do you really think that gun in the cockpit is solution for anything? We aren't talking about a car now, we are talking about an AIRCRAFT. Do you have EVEN an idea how big damage even one bullet might cause in the cockpit. Same thing with cabin as well..."


If a pilot ever uses his/her gun, its because someone is trying to break into the cockpit, no other reason. At that point, who cares if I damage the airplane with a bullet? The other option is to have a terrorist in control of the aircraft, at which point you are dead anyway.

"I wouldn't be on any flight as a passenger or cockpit crew if I know that someone is carrying a weapon there. Period."


You won't know which flights have armed pilots, just like you don't know which ones have air marshalls. You may have already flown on a flight with armed pilots.

"By the way, flight crew goes through security check prior the departure, so they can't carry scissors, knives, guns on board. So same items are illegal for flight crew and passengers, therefore pilots can't carry weapons either."


Not true. Pilots who have been through the training can carry a gun.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:36 pm

USA as the real world? No thank you, I wanna live in a civilized world, period!!!
And little Sweden had its share of hijacking so dont say you´ve got patent on hijackings, tuvm! And terrorism, look at England/IRA & Spain/ETA......how many people has been blownup on both sides, I dont support either IRA/ETA thats for sure!

Michael//SE
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BMAbound
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:15 pm

Ok, handguns are not the solution, according to me. As apparent, we're divided into the US/non-US people on this issue, but hey, we're all different.

Give me a 5 inch steel door to the cockpit and the possibility of releasing some kind of gas in the cabin, that would knock me, 300 fellow passengers and three hijackers out (well, temporary!  Big thumbs up )

Deadly force on the spot is too much of a risk, if a government wants to take the lifes of these scums, then the ground is a better place to do it!

johan
Altitude is Insurance - Get Insured
 
Spoon04
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:18 pm

As we see on a daily basis through new reports from the world over, there exists on this planet VERY BAD PEOPLE. And these very bad people have no regard for human life (even their OWN lives). Unfortunately, their preferred choice of weapons reflects the use of commercial passenger aircraft. Every single line of defense available needs to be implemented to thwart any future terrorist actions. Do I have a problem with flight crews possessing firearms in the cockpit? ABSOLUTELY NOT !! Several co-posters above have made semi-disparaging remarks about the civility of the American society vis-a-vis U.S. flight crews carrying firearms. Well my friends, we here in the U.S. are trying our best to PRESERVE our society - whether you like us or not. We didn't initiate the horrific actions of 9/11 - we're just responding to the threat that CONTINUES to exist. The individuals manning the flight deck are professionals who are in charge of multi-million dollar machines, many of whom are ex military officers. These flight crews are also in charge of each life on board their aircraft. They desire (along with myself) EVERY available means to defend themselves along with their passengers. Unfortunately, this is now the NEW REALITY. We have to recognize it, address it and deal with it.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:23 pm

D1021:
What´s abortion gotta do with anything on this topic???
"Thankful we choose firearms here"......
Are you for real?
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
oerk
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:32 pm

Look, I can see the merits in this proposal. If the situation has got so bad in the cabin that hijackers have the freedom of action to start forcing the cockpit door, then the pilot is in a real bad situation.

The way I see it, he had two options prior to the issuing of guns:

a) Hope that the hijackers were not planning on suicide, and that this was a more traditional style hijacking. This is not very likely though, because any terrorist who does not want to die is not going to hijack a plane post-9/11.

b) Knowing the plane is about to become a cruise missile, attempt an immediate controlled crash landing to get the plane out the air.

With the gun onboard, this opens up option C.

c) Attempt to shoot the hijackers as they make their entry. Now, this might sound like an attractive option, but there are a couple of issues. How many hijackers does he have to put down? If the hijackers have had the time and freedom to take down the cockpit door, the pilot can't expect support from the rest of the cabin. What if the terrorists have some way to incapacitate the pilot? Mace? Pepper spray? Anything? Unless they are issuing the pilot with a SWAT gas mask, the pilot is up against the odds in protecting the aircraft from falling into terrorist hands. What about human shields? The horrible list goes on.

Ideally, the resistance of the pilot would encourage the otherwise scared passengers to act against the now distracted hijackers. But we must consider worst case scenarios.

Although option B sounded a little extreme, if a plane is in the situation where the pilot is getting trigger time protecting the cockpit, I would already consider the flight a write-off. Option C is not perfect, I think we all know that. There is a chance it might not work, and the plane becomes a cruise missile, with said pistol now becoming a weapon of the (probably much thinned ranks of) hijackers. There is also the chance it could work and the plane is saved - theres so many variables to consider.

Option B is perhaps the surest option to avoiding the plane becoming a cruise missile, if time ran out on the implementation of the crash landing, it would not take long to contrive a controlled crash. Reagardless, the plane will be a write-off, and casualties on board might well be total. Option C offers the chance of saving the aircraft, but in the wrong circumstances could easily fail.

Some might argue that in a situation where the hijackers had the freedom to try and gain access to the cockpit, the gun is merely distracting the pilots from the inevitable. I don't like this argument, but it could well be true. After all, how many self-preserving humans would honestly choose option B without hesitation?!

Hence, if option B is not considered by the pilots, then I would rather place faith in option C than option A.

I am not an expert on this - by any means... I'm a Brit, and never handled a gun my life - its just what I have come up with sat here in the last 5 minutes. Correct my mistakes as appropriate.

HOWEVER, my real concern with firearms onboard the aircraft is the possibility of hijackers getting access to the cockpit without a struggle. Is the cockpit door never opened throughout the entire flight? I don't think so. I have seen it open for several minutes at a time on transcon USA flights. If the door is opened, then no matter how remote, it is possible that someone could enter. With a weapon in there, it is not inconceivable for the hijackers to gain access to it after dealing with the unprepared pilots. In most cases, the passengers and/or air marshall would have to deal with this situation. Passengers might storm people with knives etc - but storm someone with a gun? Does anyone else agree with me that more people would hesitate in the face of a gun?! I know I would.

Again, just my ramblings and observations. I am completely undecided on this issue.
 
Guest

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Tue Jun 08, 2004 11:56 pm

NIKV69: "All of you in this thread who oppose armed pilots come live here for a while, in the real world. "

Sorry, nik but that was a joke, or not? Hopefully you are in the "real" world and accept that 9/11 was homemade in the US.
I don't want to sit in an aircraft that is flown by a fool "cowboy" shooting around when he fears danger.

You may do that in schools in the US but please we don't want to have your "real" world.

And every pilot using a gun and entering European airports should be IMPRISONED.

We had the RAF in Germany, terrorists who blew up innocent people. So I don't wanna hear that cr** like: "if 9/11 would have happened in your country..." - we also had terrorism attacks and didn't loose brain as you did.

Ulf: how many of these attacks happened in Germany, how many in the US. A country that allows private people to use weapons, needn't wonder about that.
And in the meantime we know that the Erfurt pupil saw how US pupil behaved and what they did in schools there. So he "copied" that sh**.

And your last comment, sorry to say that, Ulf, was stupid and showed how life of people from other nations is accepted.

[Edited 2004-06-08 17:06:33]
 
BMAbound
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:06 am

Spoon04,

we all agree that there are nutheads out there, but shooting them on the spot is not always feasible, especially in an aircraft.

There are other ways to "preserve one's soceity".

Why do you limit your line of defense to the sole use of guns?

If you ask me, we should get them on the ground and then do what we please. Let the highly trained military, whose job it is to take care of these people, board the aircraft and put a bullet between their eyes.

The duty of the pilots, as stated in every "rule book" I can think of, is to be reponsible for the safe outcome of the flight. Kinda hard to do that when chasing a terrorist down the aisle instead of sitting behind an armoured door at the controls.

Please don't make this a "U.S. rules thread". Us overseas A.nutters can't stand it for much longer.

johan

Altitude is Insurance - Get Insured
 
oerk
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:22 am

If you ask me, we should get them on the ground and then do what we please.

How do you expect to get the aircraft on the ground if hijackers are forcing their way into the cockpit? You think the hijackers will sit in the jump seats and let the pilot land the plane?

The duty of the pilots, as stated in every "rule book" I can think of, is to be reponsible for the safe outcome of the flight. Kinda hard to do that when chasing a terrorist down the aisle instead of sitting behind an armoured door at the controls.

Who suggested that the pilots would chase the hijackers around the plane? Or even leave the cockpit to deal with dangers? From what I read, the gun was to be used only to stop access to the cockpit, i.e. a final defense between the would be hijacker and the flight controls? If the pilots have any intentions of running around the aircraft with guns, then hey, this is a seriously bad idea. I just don't think this was the idea. Correct me if I am wrong.

At the moment, in the worst case scenario, where the hijackers have the freedom to attempt an entry to the cockpit, the pilots are at the mercy of the hijackers as to whether they can carry out their duty of ensuring a safe outcome of the flight. This is clearly unacceptable.

I have already raised my concerns, such as seizure of the cockpit and the gun making it much more difficult for passengers and air marshals to resolve the situation.

My main complaint however, is that arming the pilots assumes the failure of ground based security and screening. It assumes that one day terrorists might be stood at the other side of the cockpit door, unhindered, and attempting to gain access. Let me make it clear - in all other circumstances - I think a gun in the cockpit is a bad idea.

Its just a shame that it seems authorities are actually planning for such a situation. I would prefer to find a solution on the ground...

[Edited 2004-06-08 17:26:19]

[Edited 2004-06-08 17:28:38]
 
Spoon04
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:28 am

Johan, I wasn't aware my statements reflected a "U.S. rules thread" - whatever that means. Look, if the aircraft I'm on comes under the direct threat of individuals whose sole purpose is to kill everyone on board, I really don't give a shit WHAT has to be used to neutralize the threat. Feasability regarding "weapons of choice" is secondary. I want the threat negated and NEGATED INSTANTLY - whether a firearm is used, wine bottles over the head, or WHATEVER IS NEEDED !! So where do you get off claiming my stance consists SOLELY of utilizing firearms? The utilization of guns by flight crew members ONLY comes into play if the highly-trained military don't have the opportunity to neutralize the Bad Guys on the ground. Once in the air, ALL BETS ARE OFF! Do what you f****** HAVE TO DO TO SURVIVE!!
 
ulfinator
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:40 am

Stefandotde

I will publicly apologize for my last comment as I was upset and responded hastily. However I was highly offended by you "Greetings from Columbine" comment. As far as for:

And in the meantime we know that the Erfurt pupil saw how US pupil behaved and what they did in schools there. So he "copied" that sh**.

I believe that the saying goes "If you friend jumped off of a cliff would you do it to?".

The point I was trying to make is that shootings and any other sort of violence in schools is a problem around the world and not just a US problem. I just don't buy the "their kids take guns to school so of course they would let guns in the cockpit" argument.

I really don't know what your problem is with "A country that allows private people to use weapons" but I happen to exercise that right, responsibly, and would really dislike to live in a country that denies the private citizen to use weapons.

So it sounds a bit like we will have to agree to disagree, which I will do agreeably since there is not much chance I will change you mind and not much chance you will change mine. I leave it to you to do the same.


 
Gman94
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:44 am

We had the RAF in Germany, terrorists who blew up innocent people. So I don't wanna hear that cr** like: "if 9/11 would have happened in your country..." - we also had terrorism attacks and didn't loose brain as you did.


I am deeply insulted by that comment. The RAF bombing of German cities was not a terrorist attack it was an act of war, performed by brave pilots risking their lives in the defence of their country not cowards using guerilla tactics and suicide bombings. So what does that make the Luftwaffe flattening of British cities then? To me acts of war and acts of terror are two completely different things.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:47 am

I'm with Gman94.. we didn't start that war, we merely finished it. God bless the men & women of the RAF (and all other allied services) for having the courage to stand in defiance of evil and do what was asked of them.

In memory of all those who have fallen for freedom.. not European political rhetoric.

[Edited 2004-06-08 17:48:31]
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
oerk
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:49 am

I think he was referring to the Red Army Faction terrorist organisation, not the Royal Air Force.
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:16 am

OK Oerk, you might be right. But you just never know what kind of crap these radical nutjobs are gonna spout off. I just had to make sure...

[Edited 2004-06-08 18:17:19]
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
Gman94
Posts: 1167
Joined: Fri May 28, 2004 2:56 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:28 am

Stefandotde,

Ooops!!!, please except my apologies if you were referring to the Red Army Faction. As a Brit when I hear the RAF mentioned I think of the Royal Air Force.
British Airways - The Way To Fly
 
IAD777
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 7:15 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:42 am

Firearms are not a realistic solution to solving terrorism and air travel. Even in a worst case scenario i don't think they make sense. It's just seems like a bad idea to have pilots armed.

On the other hand it is sometimes nervewrecking to fly american airlines on int'l flights, so sometimes I feel a bit mixed about this question. It's reassuring to at least think that there are skymarshalls on those flights.

So i'm a bit mixed.

Not quite sure what this has to do with the "real world" or not, or whether Europe or America is the "real world." Seems like a particularly assanine and spurious debate.

However, having said that, airport security needs to be better and to be honest i think it's better in europe at heathrow, cdg, ams, fra, than the crappy TSA at American airports So in that sense it seems like europeans are taking security more seriously (not just making it a political issue, like congressional and white house republicans who call for TSA they try to cut its funding and privatize airport screeners...) TSA needs revamping, training and funding, not fund reduction and privitization

Anyway rather than just bash each other trans-atlantically, i'm curious as to what people honestly think when they are on the plane, not now, when they are on the ground at a computer.

Cheers
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
MD80Nut
Posts: 973
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 6:43 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:28 am

As an NRA member and having owned guns most of my life, I don't fear pilots carrying guns. And since I personally know law abiding citizens who prevented crimes by using their guns, I know how valuable they can be when the situation arises. There is no guarantee, of course, that they will be able to use their guns to stop a terrorist threat, but I'd rather the pilots have that option!

cheers, Ralph
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
FinnWings
Posts: 633
Joined: Fri Oct 24, 2003 6:03 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:46 am

Not true. Pilots who have been through the training can carry a gun.

Yes, but only in the United States. What FAA has approved is only valid in the US, not anywhere else. In Europe it is illegal to carry guns, so US pilots can't carry guns if they are flying to Europe. If US pilot would carry a gun he would be prosecuted in the court here.

"It is absolutely amazing how people from these countries that never have any incidents of terrorism or hijackings can sit there and say pilots should not be armed"

Firstly, I think most of the countries have dealt with hijackings during the past years more or less. Most of the hijackings have been solved by negotiating and those have ended peacefully. Many countries have also experiences of more violent hijackings as well.

Secondly, do you think that US is now the biggest expert of terrorism after that horrible 9/11? No. There are many countries around the world and even here in Europe who have faced terrorism many years. So please, stop that "you don't know what to do, because you don't have experience" attitude.

You can't stop terrorism by just trying to stop the symptoms (attacks)... If you are really going to get rid of it, maybe you should do something to the reasons which cause that (politics). Do you really think that current politic of US decrease hate and possibility of new attacks towards them? Just my few euro cents...

Regards,
FinnWings
 
copenhagenboy
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 11:03 pm

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:52 am

"He flys mostly to Europe"

My God, he could be arrested on landing  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

But to be serious, no way, keep the guns away from our a/c's.
Maybe in a very special situation . But not as the norm, no, even in this "war".
 
SleepyFlyBoy
Posts: 72
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2001 7:43 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:06 am

dude!!! what the hell is wrong with some of you people. do they replay too much old us country western's or something in your countries? do you really think the first thought of a pilot who is being hijacked is going to be "i'll shoot the ::bleep::" your retarded and obviously dont know a single thing about the airlines. each and every airline in the world has set procedures for hijackings.. of course each hijacking is different but pilots do have procedures to go through when they are being hijacked. usually one of the first maneuvers is to make the hijacker loose his footing/ balance in the aircraft with quick turns or dives. if this does not allow a passenger or crew member to constrain the attacker they move on. some of you are ignorant and think the pilot will just pop his head out of the bulletproof door and start firing... get your head out of the movies. face the fact that handguns are a reasonable solution to aggressive hijackers. whoever opted for gas to be pumped into the cabin... there are many flaws with that. one the cost to retrofit the aircraft would be enormous. two would be sick or elderly people who could not survive a lack of oxygen or needed their consciousness to keep their own oxygen masks on. three... if a terrorist smuggled a weapon on a plane... dont you think he could smuggle some form of breathing device onboard? four with everybody unconscious you take away a lot of your lifelines. you no longer have the flight attendants to inform you of whats going on in the cabin... you dont know if the hijackers are awake and you just potentially knocked out a couple people who would have been willing to jump the attackers.

having a gun in the cockpit is not and will not ever be the backbone of hijacking procedures but it is something to fall back on. when everything fails and in order to try to prevent another 9/11 size tragedy from happening they will at all costs try to maintain control of that aircraft. 3000 people dieing on the ground is a much larger size catastrophe then 100 or so people in the air. also the people wielding these guns are not simple minded rejects that cant tie their shoes. you are trusting your lives to these people to fly a mutlimillion dollar aircraft but you wont trust them with a gun in fear of? crashing? well if he doesnt have a gun and he dies... your flying a multi-million dollar missile or better yet a multi-million dollar aircraft that no passenger could land. i understand that a lot of people view guns as bad but a gun in properly trained and educated hands could be a very useful tool in saving your life one day. someone said that the gun could fall into the wrong hands ... well if it does fall into the wrong hands you shouldnt even be worried about the gun... who the hell is flying the plane?

i dont really care if a lot of you hate the US... but we the us public take our freedoms seriously. i dont really care that each person thinks their country is better... i dont.

Stefandotde... you win hands down for the dumbest individual on this post... you did not have one valid argument in any piece of your post. 9/11 did affect airlines worldwide... not just in the USA. maybe you label it as a minor tragedy in your ignorant mind but you are obviously viewing americans as a group of people who only know of our tragedy which is completely false. you seem to know very little about US culture, lifestyles, and even our education systems and yet you are so quick to judge the USA on high profile news headlines. think before you speak and if you do grace us with your ignorance at least give us a little breath of reality somewhere in your statements. you are talking about violence in our country as if it never and will never happen in your country. which is false ...AGAIN. i know they raise you guys on believing that your country is the best, #1, or whatever you wanna call it but wake up and take a look around... every country has problems but dont think you know a darn thing about a country because you read the paper twice in your life.
i just re-read your post and you want every us gun carrying pilot who lands in europe to be arrested... i am speechless.... are you really that simple minded? i wont even explain why its so stupid just to confuse you. do some ... not even some just a little research on world relations!

i understand that people view guns as bad but guns have and will be for many years to come a cost effective final line of defense and threat deterrent for airlines against hijacking.

mike
kick the tires and light the fires
 
IAD777
Posts: 120
Joined: Thu Nov 27, 2003 7:15 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:51 am

Stefandotde-

You wrote:

"Hopefully you are in the "real" world and accept that 9/11 was homemade in the US."

While no doubt the united states is guilty of having funded and supported some elements political Islamic extermism in the Middle-East, let alone conservative politically Islamic Arab regimes, is it your assertation that Al-Qaeda and Political Islamic Extremism in the Middle-East, and by extension the events of 9/11 are entirely the creation of the US?

If so, I'm afriad that is a facile assumption and shockingly ignorant of the complexities of Middle-East History, Super-Power Inolvement and the Rise of Political Islam.

History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
SSTjumbo
Posts: 2579
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2001 3:29 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:58 am

I haven't read the whole thread, so this sub-topic might be closed out by now, but here we go folks,
R-U-B-B-E-R bullets.
That's right, they do make bullets out of rubber that weigh the same as regular bullets, and since they can't penetrate the human body, they'll hit harder due to the fact that the momentum is transfered from bullet to terrorist quicker. At 50', you can expect one to feel like you just've been decked by a Mike Tyson KO in his prime. At close, they probably won't hit much harder, but two or three of those in a row will put just about anyone out cold. That's what should be in the cockpit, as there's absolutely no way they could puncture the hull of the aircraft. Also, if you knock your first officer in the head, you're down a pilot for a couple of hours, but the chances of him suffering a fatal injury are greatly reduced. That's my take.
I don't know, so this is my signature.
 
aa757first
Posts: 3140
Joined: Sun Aug 03, 2003 11:40 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:13 am

Is the cockpit door never opened throughout the entire flight? I don't think so. I have seen it open for several minutes at a time on transcon USA flights. If the door is opened, then no matter how remote, it is possible that someone could enter.

I remember a topic about this a while ago. I believe how it works is the captain / first officer needs to use the bathroom. A flight attendant makes sure the area around the cockpit is clear of passengers. One flight attendant gets a drink cart and puts it in front of the door (I think this is UAL) only. The remaining flight crew member puts on his oxygen mask. One flight attendant enters the cockpit so s/he can open the door when the flight crew member who left returns.

It's not perfect at all. But the pilots can't not eat/drink/relive themselves on a longer flight.

AAndrew
 
NIKV69
Posts: 10910
Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:27 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:21 am

Like I said before and still stand by the statement. If you individuals who live in Sweden etc don't want your pilots armed that is fine. In the USA we need to have our pilot's armed, the cockpit doors and anything else. The terrorists of the world including Al Qaida target US not you. I am glad I live on this land, and I am thankful for the the freedom we have. To protect this from the ones who hate us in the middle east we need armed pilots. It may or may not have stopped 9/11 but they sure would have a much better chance than they did.
Hey that guy with the private jet can bail us out! Why? HE CAN AFFORD IT!
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:11 pm

To the person who pointed out (Stefandote?) that the RAF committed terror acts there, so you knwo what they are all about....

You never, ever, lost in a terrorist attack over 2000 innocents and billions of dollars of damages in lost property and business. If you do no think this war on terror is real, well please go about doing whatever you normally do while those of us who refuse to accept this as normal and acceptable behavior go about the necessary work of dealing with the terrorists. If this means having armed pilots, then so be it. Luckily I know some Germans and other Europeans that feel that terrorists should be opposed at every turn, so I can't issue a blanket indictment of all europeans, but there seems to be a goodly number of well intentioned people on this thread who would rather stick their heads in the sand and wish for the best of all possible worlds along with Mssr Candide.

Hopefully you are in the "real" world and accept that 9/11 was homemade in the US."
Did you really mean that you believe the US created the 9/11 incident, or do you prefer to think that we brought it on ourselves, as so many have insinuated or said? I just want to know where you stand, because statement 1 is ridiculous, and the product of people who detest the US, and statement 2 is akin to accepting that the school bully is going to take our milk money and we just have to accept it in order to avoid taking a beating. WHich did you mean?



Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
AFROTC
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2004 4:59 pm

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:17 pm

To all of you guys who think pilots carrying guns is a bit too John Wayne well, I kinda beg to differ and this is because I know a few pilots both airforce and civilian. I think that pilots are an ok choice to carry hand guns on planes. These guys are already trained to handle situations in high stress elements, they wouldn't be hired if they couldn't.

Which also means the idea that there will be a gun battle at 30,000 Ft is a bit stupid, for those of you who actually had gun training, and I'm not talking about your grandaddy's rifle, you would understand that these guys were trained well enough to handle high conflict decisions without over reacting otherwise they would not be qualified to have a weapon. But the likelihood of the pilot ever using a gun is a last minute resort if the cockpit is about to be breached I would think.

So, think what you like, but to those who think of us in the states as nothing but a bunch of gun brandishing cowboys you need to set your thinking ahead another hundred years....

and one more thing while im still awake, Stefandotde i do believe that there was a school shooting in germany not too long ago eh.... not just a US problem now is it...... lay off guys...

[Edited 2004-06-09 05:37:37]
We've Been Looking For You, United States Airforce, Cross Into The Blue!
 
RT514
Posts: 399
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 2:11 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:43 pm

In the USA we need to have our pilot's armed, the cockpit doors and anything else

While I may not be convinced that armed pilots are necessarily the answer, the above statement holds some truth. It's a despicable and unfortunate truth, much to the detriment of the American culture and reality. I've lived in the USA and I frequently enjoy visiting the USA, and I despise what terrorists have done and the threat they pose. When given the option, however...
I would much rather fly on an airline with unarmed pilots, less prone to terrorist attack, rather than an airline with armed pilots, perhaps more prone to terrorist attack.

I remember flying to visit a friend in Australia and she was pushing for me to fly on AC or QF over UA for that very reason.

Incidentally and much to her relief, I flew AC. Are my travel habits changed by the threat of terrorist attack, however? No, not really. In fact, I have travel on NW booked for later this year.
 
Bobs89irocz
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 4:52 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:39 pm

*When i get the chance to be the PIC of a commercial Airliner*

I would carry a gun on board if given the chance, unless the policy changes before i get to the cockpit i would definitly take the responsiblity of carrying a gun on my hip to protect my life/passangers/aircraft. Remember, these pilots arent some morans with pistols on there hip. They go through training and obviously are bright people to be in the position they are in. However extreme caution must be used at all times when carrying a weapon.

just my .02.....i understand all the point of views writen above.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:39 pm

Right now I am more concerned with getting my flying time up so I can qualify for captain next year....once I have the time, I will most certainly go to FFDO training so i can carry a firearm.


To the naysayers: The weapons are only used on the threat of cockpit penetration. If the guy is in the back killing everyone and the door never gets penetrated, the weapon will not be used. It is a defensive weapon, not offensive (well..until i get put on the offense by joe terrorist poking his head in the wrong cockpit). I have no qualms whatsoever about killing someone that tries to take control of my aircraft. I have an axe up there now at least (if the captain is not an FFDO), and will do everything in my power to "disable" a threat.


The pacifist thought process can be good in some situations, but when it comes to evil intentions of people...we certainly arent in a position to be all loving and flowery about someone who aims to take away our lifestyle. A bullet hole is not going to take down an airplane..have you seen the pressurization outflow valves!?!? They are huge...a bullet hole won't do anything noticiable. Now a terrorist in control of the airpalne because that bullet hole wasn't in him....that will take down an airplane and the national landmark of his choice. Why be a pacifist when this is at stake?
Chicks dig winglets.
 
aa777jr
Posts: 2269
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 12:03 pm

RE: Pilots Carrying Guns!

Wed Jun 16, 2004 7:39 am

HE can't be arrested flying into LHR CDG AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA BRU or FCO carring a gun. He is a licensed federal officer carrying the gun now. No one can take it from him. Your European rules don't apply here, sorry. Do the research.
A liberal is a man who is right most of the time, but he's right too soon.

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