juanchie
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Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:56 pm

I am preparing to vote in my first presidential election so I am taking the steps to make an imformed desicion on who I want leading the US. Personally, I like neither candidate (Im waiting for Guliania or McCain as I think they are good leaders). How would Kerry or Bush affect the airline industry in the next four years if either gets elected. Does either have a plan to protect airlines, air travel or immigration security?



Juan Carlos
God, forgive me for who I am, and help me be the man I want to be.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:08 am

To be honest, as much as we all love it, the airline industry should be a little lower on your priority list of selecting a candidate. There are bigger considerations...
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
juanchie
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:11 am

Well I figure I should look into all aspects of a candidate that are going to affect my life. And Im sure its high on people's list if they or their family work in aviation. But that just my view.
God, forgive me for who I am, and help me be the man I want to be.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:15 am

Domestic economic policy and foreign security both have an indirect effect on everything else - including aviation. If you have a candidate who is going to tax the piss outta corporations and/or individuals, air travel will suffer. However, tax policy is not generally associated with "airline industry policy".
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
atcboy73
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:58 am

Here you go.

http://www.natca.org/currentissues/staffingclipsdetail.asp?id=6

There are many different estimates on the situation. Some show as many as 50 percent of controllers will be eligible for retirement in the next 7 years. These are many of the controllers that were hired to replace the fired PATCO controllers.

The link above states the Bush administrations 2004 budget allows for the hiring of just over 300 controllers and the currant proposal for the 2005 budget has NO money for new hires.

Even though Mineta says his plan is to triple air traffic capacity the Bush administration cut 400 billion from the budget that would of allowed the FAA to acquire new technology.

It looks to me like Bush wants the ATC system to fall on its face so it has to be sold to the lowest bidder, which would probably be a big Bush campaign contributor  Big thumbs up.

Think of how costly this whole situation is going to be as jets sit on taxiways and at gates because places like ORD tracon (already understaffed) doesn't have enough controllers to work the planes and ABQ center (already understaffed) makes planes at DFW and IAH sit for the same reason.

Think this is a few years off? Its already happening. SJC has had to close early due to lack of staffing and Oakland center has had to restrict inbounds from overseas due to not having enough controllers.

Its only going to get worse. I say we just close the FAA and send the money to Iraq so we could build more oil infrastructure and have cheaper oil for when we all have to drive.  Big thumbs up
 
jmacias34
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:19 am

Atcboy,

Correct me if I am wrong, but is Kerry against privitization? I thought I read that he was against privatization in a NATCA article, but I can't seem to find it. As a CTI Student, I'm against privatization. In our classes we've had debates on which way to vote and who offers aspiring controllers the best option, and as of now it looks to be Kerry.

I just don't like the fact that he has 'The Real Deal' on his 757.

-Joe
 
AFHokie
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:52 am

Don't forget that the ATC situation for civil aviation directly affects the military too. There's been a "revolving" door occurring in DoD for controllers due to numbers of the FAA controllers that are reaching retirement eligibility.

A lot of the kid's that are enlisting and becoming controllers due so with the intention of serving out their initial enlistment and then getting out and working for the FAA. I can't say I blame them, they get the training and a few years of experience, and then get out and easily double if not triple their salary. Even a DoD contract controller makes on average at least twice as much as what they would by staying in as and E-3, E-4.

The reenlistment bonus helps to offset the pay imbalance some, but then when you include the deployments to the many "garden" spots of the world, the time away from family, etc. That often makes the choice for them pretty easy.

It can get pretty tough when you're trying to convince a 23yr old to stay in and continue to serve their country for lower pay and long hours, extended time away from family when they have offers to work LAX tracon with a starting salary that is six figures.

I agree with atcboy73 that it's going to get worse, not just for civil aviation, but all across the board.

 
atcboy73
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:59 am

LOL, the word DEAL, thats great.

For those that don't know, the word deal is slang in ATC circles for a loss of separation situation.

NATCA has endorsed Kerry as Bush has shown he is anti air traffic control as it is today, yet he and the heads of the FAA that he appointed (Blakey) seem to have NO CLUE. She just now, seems to be realizing that a ton of here controllers might not be here in five years. It takes controllers to train controllers. If you don't have enough controllers to staff the positions you have that how can you staff positions to work traffic and also train?

There is possible progress though with Chew (new second in command, if you will) and the new ATO.

From the looks of things today Kerry offers the best hope for an aspiring controller. This should not be debatable.

And yes, I believe Kerry is anti privatization.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:14 am

"but is Kerry against privitization?"

No matter what the topic, by very nature of his platforms, Kerry will always choose Government intervention and control over private industry. Apparently you and I are only capable of making responsible decisions if we receive our paychecks from the Federal Government.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
LAS757300
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:16 am

There were some reports last week surrounding the presidents next budget which included cuts in home land security. The details are, as of yet, unknown, but its safe to say Kerry would not propose similar cuts. On the other side Kerry will probably push for an increase in taxation, but when you're an airline there is little income to actually tax. I think Kerry is more friendly to aviation, but my earlier praise of Ted Kennedy should give you an idea of where I'm coming from politically.
KMSP
 
Superfly
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:20 am

Atcboy73's comments are a real eye opener. Is Bush good for anything?
It sounds like Bush is bad news across the board. John Kerry would make a much better leader and I think the there will be a much better business enviornment under Kerry.



Juanchie:
Who is Guliania?
Bring back the Concorde
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:03 am

-I read an article the other day (Fortune Mag, i believe) about how over the last half century the administrations that spent the least were when different parties controlled legislative and executive branches (Clinton, Nixon, Ford, Reagan). So if not for the reasons above, maybe getting congress and the president to quit rubbing and tugging eachother off is the way to get them to quit spending damn money.

-Here's the article: http://www.cato.org/research/articles/bandow-040420.html

-Although I don't know Bush's official views on Boeing, I know Kerry has said he is prepared to level the playing field if Airbus continues the be subsidized. He also is in favor of the KC-767 tanker deal. Now, we'll hope he doesn't flip flop on these statements...
 
PITrules
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:38 am

"He also is in favor of the KC-767 tanker deal", referring to Kerry.

Kerry has been against every major piece of new military equipment since he has been a senator. Trident subs, B-2, etc., the list goes on and on.

The most important thing for the airline industry is a strong economy and security. Bush has taken the Clinton recession he inherited and turned it around to gain 600,000 new jobs in the last 3 months alone. While Clinton did nothing to those who attacked the WTC 1993, US embassies in Africa, housing complexes in Saudi Arabia, and the USS Cole (an attack which was an act of war), we finally have a President who has the balls to go after these guys. Kerry isn't Clinton, but I have not seen a reason why he would be different. Better security is good for the airline industry, and this election is an easy choice for me.
FLYi
 
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N328KF
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:51 am

Bah, single-issue voters!
When they call the roll in the Senate, the Senators do not know whether to answer 'Present' or 'Not guilty.' -Theodore Roosevelt
 
american762
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:00 am

You know what, politics should be left out of aviation. Neither President is going to make a HUGE difference in the aviation world. The most any modern president has done involving airliners was Clinton tripping on the steps of Air Force One.  Nuts

Unless we get that damn King couple and their incredibly wry humor into the presidency, aviation should not play a big part in your vote. I'm only 17 and can't vote, but follow the politics closely, maybe I don't know as much with presidential views on aviation as much as someone who works as ATC (ATCBoy73) but I know enough to know that neither candidate will have an impact on it.

N328KF Writes:
"Bah, single-issue voters!"

I write:
Bah, single-phrase posters!

[Edited 2004-06-08 22:08:30]
Pan Am has a place of its' own. You call it the world, we call it home.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:02 am

"John Kerry would make a much better leader and I think the there will be a much better business enviornment under Kerry."

Certainly you are kidding... right?  Confused

"[snip] ... the presidents next budget which included cuts in home land security. [snip] ...its safe to say Kerry would not propose similar cuts."

Why do you say that? I can see Kerry being against some things. One of the "cuts" is the re-privatization of the security screeners at airports. Kerry would oppose that becuase he wants Federal fingers in it (and everything else). Why would the Feds run it any better than a private company? It's the same bloody people doing the same bloody job!
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:07 am

Pitrules,

Easy bud. I can't fault you for being passionate, but its bordering on sounding like a puppet. I say he's in favor of the tanker deal because I heard the words out of his mouth when he came to Seattle. I'm well aware of his history on defense. Its pitiful. He voted against B-2, Abrahms, battle armor, etc etc... Not good. And don't get started on Clinton. I understand what your saying, and frankly, I agree. But try and look at both sides. Thats all.

-Zach
 
PITrules
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 6:39 am

Zach

I didn't mean to come across as a talking head for Bush, and I agree with you that whomever is elected needs to cut spending. But I have looked at both sides (on many issues, not just aviation), and in my opinion, Kerry is weak. John Edwards would have been much more attractive for the dems.....
FLYi
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:12 am

Pitrules,

Agreed with you on every point. Kerry and Bush are both weak. Edwards vs. McCain would be my preference, but whatta ya do?

-Zach
 
PITrules
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:53 am

Edwards vs. McCain would be a great (and close) election. I'm not sure which one would be better for the airlines.
FLYi
 
dan-air
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:11 am

Why would the Feds run it any better than a private company? It's the same bloody people doing the same bloody job!

The environment pre-9/11 was lowest-bid private companies paying minimum wage, no background checks on screeners.

Look, saying that Kerry wants the "Feds fingers in it and everything else" is just plain ridiculous. What's your reasoning for saying this? What would Kerry's possible motivation be for insisting on government involvment in US citizens' security vs. handing the responsibility over to unregulated private contractors?

This myth that somehow private companies are always more efficient and cost-effective than government is shop-worn rhetoric. Why are companies in business? To make money. As much as possible. If they can push a few bucks to the bottom line by cutting corners, that's what they do.

Oh and the "600,000 jobs created by Bush"? The economy lost 3.5 million jobs in the 3 years of Bush's reign!!! This country needs to find 140,000 new jobs every month just to account for people entering the workforce. And just how badly did Clinton run down the military? We pounded Afghanistan and Iraq using equipment planned for and procured during Clinton's administration. Get your bloody facts straight Fox News fans!

[Edited 2004-06-09 01:23:08]
 
Guest

RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:54 am

Atcboy73's comments are a real eye opener. Is Bush good for anything?
It sounds like Bush is bad news across the board. John Kerry would make a much better leader and I think the there will be a much better business enviornment under Kerry.


Don't ever put all your faith in the opinion of a disgruntled Air Traffic Controller. ATC privatization is a good thing. Only legacy Union types say it isn't, and there is no statistical proof to support their claim that the skies are somehow less safe under privatization.
 
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Aloha717200
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:58 am

Let me put it this way:

John Kerry is a private pilot and educated about the airline industry. He pays attention to the ongoing situation of Airbus vs. Boeing. About competing companies in the aviation industry. Many times he has called for the government to "level the playing field" with Airbus...if Airbus is going to hurt Boeing's business by undercutting prices because Airbus is subsidized, then he says boeing should recieve subsidies too to make it fair play.

Everything I've heard from Kerry on the aviation front speaks of a person that actually KNOWS something about it and cares about it. Bush, on the other hand, seems like he couldn't care less unless he gets a photo-op.

So I would believe that because Kerry actually has an interest in the industry and is licensed himself as a private pilot, that he will be a friend to BOTH commercial aviation AND General Aviation. Whereas under the current admin, GA seems to be scorned like the plague.


Again, it's your choice, but on every issue, including aviation, of Bush vs. Kerry, I find Kerry's proposals much better. I've seen what kind of leader Bush has been in the past 4 years. I've seen what's happened to the aviation industry (some things aren't entirely his fault), and I really think it's time for a change.

 
Guest

RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:03 am

I've seen what's happened to the aviation industry (some things aren't entirely his fault), and I really think it's time for a change.

How about:

I've seen what's happened to the aviation industry. Nothing is Bush's fault, and regardless who is elected, nothing will change. Unless of course Kerry get's back on the re-regulation bandwagon.
 
Air1727
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:00 am

How about: ditto to Boing's comment...my thoughts exactly...
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:43 am

@Dan-Air

I find it quite amusing that you don't know what you are talking about - that you regurgitate alleged facts that have been fed to you by a variety of sources, and then you accuse others of being brainwashed by Fox News. Very amusing.  Insane

As for Kerry and Fed-fetish, he is quite proud of the fact that his the most liberal, pro-government congressman in existance. I think he even comes in to the left of Big Ted.
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
doug_or
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:44 am

RE: president having no effect on airline industry-

tell that to any of the pilots who had their strikes broken by presidential order.

tell that to the fired ATC strikers.

When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Air1727
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:03 am

I won't tell that to any of them Doug because #1: PATCO's strike was a matter of jeopardizing national airspace efficiency and was done completely improperly; #2: presidential intervention with pilot strikes have been for the most part warranted and only had short term affects on the big picture.

Privatization of ATC is here to stay, and is no less safe than a FAA tower. As a current business aviation professional, I welcome more private towers to help with up and coming smaller airports who need the aid of controllers; aid that the FAA cannot afford.
In the Alaska bush I'd rather have a two hour bladder and three hours of gas than vice versa.
 
aviationwiz
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:25 am

You really shouldn't be basing your vote off of how they might effect the airline industry. Make it a contest of ideas, who better fits your needs for Foreign Policy, Homeland Defense, the Economy, etc.
Proudly from the Home of the Red Tail.
 
lymanm
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:47 am

Actually Kerry isn't a private pilot...he's multi-commercial rated with his sea plane rating. Which make him a more qualified pilot that 99% of the users on this forum...
buhh bye
 
atcboy73
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:54 am

It depends on what type of ATC privatization you are talking about. A system that puts safety above all else would be awesome. If it can make money, invest in new technology and maintain proper staffing levels while reducing costs and still paying workers decent wages and benefits.

I have a private tower in my airspace that is the busiest tower in central Texas. They wont get a BRIGHT (radar display). Why, because it costs money. It is becoming a daily occurrence for them to refuse inbound traffic, doesn't matter if its VFR or IFR traffic. No NOTAM, they just say no more arrivals. So Im supposed to tell an IFR arrival, on an IFR flight plan that he cant arrive at the airport he filed to
because..................ah........................the pattern is full?????? Ya ok.

Now thats service.

Companies are in business to make money. The private tower that is in my air space has shown me that through their reduced staffing (Ill be out of the tower for a few minutes)......(Im guessing its bathroom time) and unwillingness to acquire new technology these outfits need to be kept only at low activity airports.
*************************
Now lets talk about the big airlines. What have they lost over the last 3 or so years? BILLIONS? A privatized ATC system would be funded by user fees and how can those user fees be paid by airlines that are loosing billions.

So where is the funding going to come from, Washington? That money has to come from somewhere.
*************************
Do you GA pilots want to pay user fees?

Oh, and by the way, did someone call me disgruntled?

Oh come on now, this is all good conversation and Im a happy guy who loves his job.

We have the biggest, best, most complex, and yes, in some ways the most advanced ATC system in the world. To see it not maintained makes me disgruntled.











 
slider
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:26 pm

Wow- lot of opinions on this thread, so I'll jump in with mine as well.

First and foremost, neither of these two gentlemen could effectively deal with aviation security in the manner that it needs to be dealt with. Our airports are no more safe than they were on 9/10, yet now we've added a new bureaucracy to the mix, one that has done more to hinder travelers, add costs to carriers and been more onerous in terms of mismanagement and gross incompetence than anyone could fathom. I'm disappointed in Bush (read as: angry) and the utter lack of control over aviation security. Kerry wouldn't be much better. On that note, Mike Boyd's latest security flash is brilliant and non-partisan. Check out www.aviationplanning.com for details.

In terms of General Aviation, I have to disagree with Aloha. Organizations such as AOPA and EAA with Tom Poberezny have a wonderful working relationship with the present administration.

With regard to ATC and privatization: it needs to happen. Our ATC system runs on decrepid ancient technology that we should be ASHAMED of. THe technology has existed for years to upgrade it, but again, the bloated bureaucracy, government bidding process and miles of red tape has kept any real implementation from happening. When a company like Lockheed has a turnkey system that they can use in any backwater country that's more capable than what we have, and do it for less money, little training, and damn near 100% reliability, yet we piss BILLIONS away to IBM, et al annually on eternal development that never comes to fruition, that's a concern that every good American should be worried about.

BTW, the PATCO strike was totally justified and I'd do the same thing as Ronaldus Magnus if I would have been President.

Juan Carlos- Congrats on your first pending election! Democracy is not a spectator sport; it's encouraging to see your interest. Don't vote strictly on aviation issues, and I'd strongly suggest reading voraciously and learning about history, civics, and foreign policy. No disrespect, since I don't know your educational background, but if you're a product of the government school system, you probably didn't get much of the straight dope.

God bless America!
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:11 pm

"Do you GA pilots want to pay user fees?"

Nah... just have the rest of the non-flying public pay for it through taxes. After all, you said it yourself - "that money has to come from somewhere."
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 2:26 pm

Im waiting for Guliania

Ummmm....who? Could you mean Rudy Guliani, former mayor of NYC? Sounds like you might need to do some more research...still, thanks for realizing that voting is a key part of being a citizen...many are too lazy to even bother, but yet they're usually the ones who bitch and moan the loudest when things don't go right for them or they want a handout in exchange for nothing.

How would McCain be with the airlines? Well...based on his miserable track record on airline industry issues (coming from a Republican) you can count on him to have no sympathy. If McCain ran for President, I would either vote for his Democratic opponet, or some wacko screwball who had no chance, kind of like Nader or Kucinich.

Kerry vs. Bush on aviation? Hard to say. I'm sure Kerry would encourage the approval of the UAL ATSB loan guarantee package, whereas it's a tossup with Dubya. Kerry's a pilot, huh? Well...he can't be all bad, then!  Big grin Plus, the guy likes the music of James Taylor!  Big thumbs up Too bad he is so damn liberal, though.

And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
SUPRAZACHAIR
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:33 pm

Too bad he is so damn liberal, though.

Doesn't it make your stomach turn? I start thinking, "hey he's not as bad as I thought. I actually agree with him on some issues...." Then I step back, and say exactly what you said. So damn liberal. Ugh. I hate this years election.
 
dan-air
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RE: Kerry Vs Bush And Aviation

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:21 pm

InnocuosFox

Yawn. OK Mr. Limbaugh, which "alleged fact" is incorrect, since I don't know what I'm talking about, why don't you regurgitate some facts yourself. Got any?