mark777300
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AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 3:59 am

I was waiting at the train station yesterday to go to work when AF's 773ER passed over me heading into R22L at JFK. She was coming rather high. About a few minutes later she reappeared from the southeast and passed over me again. Unless AF had two flights with 773ERs back to back, I would have to assume that it was the same aircraft going around. Hey at least it gave me two chances to see her pass by. Looks really cool when it flies overhead with those raked wing tips.
 
DIA
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:00 am

The AF crew just wanted to have an additional approach for fun. . .who wouldn't.  Big grin
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
Guest

RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:00 am

They've had quite an eventful few days.
 
mark777300
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:08 am

They've had quite an eventful few days?

I haven't heard anything at all about AF and their 773ERs, not to mention, their flight has been right on schedule during this past entire week, arriving at around 20-25 minutes after 3PM. That whole engine shut-down story, I have yet to see it anywhere, so I'm not quite sure what events they've had that you are mentioning.
 
boeingbus
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RE: TAP Introduce New B/C Lie-Flat Seats On A310-A

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:11 am

I believe I read the engine shutdown in this weeks Flight International... or maybe I was dreaming... but I 95% sure there was a write up.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
mark777300
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:15 am

guess, I'm going to go out and buy it at the store and read it. But it hasn't been posted anywhere else. But like I said before, shes been coming in everyday, on-time for the past few weeks.
 
Guest

RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:23 am

Geez, i was just commenting, no need to get so defensive about the 773ER.
 
mark777300
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:28 am

Roberta

no one's getting defensive, just thought it would be a bit strange that things are happening to that aircraft and they have managed to keep flying it into JFK on-time over the past two weeks. According to BoeingBus, there seems to be an article in this week's Flight International.
 
Guest

RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 4:32 am

just thought it would be a bit strange that things are happening to that aircraft and they have managed to keep flying it into JFK on-time over the past two weeks

You're being defensive again Big grin
 
boeingbus
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 7:26 am

Not sure about the missed approach, but I can confrm that I wasn't day dreaming and yes according to Flight Internation the 777-3300er experienced not one but TWO inflight shutdowns JUST before delivery though. As one can expect, Boeing and ge are currently looking into this... of course the small article goes into the technical terms of what had failed, something to go with the all important oil pressure, which triggerd a shutdowns... GE replaced the engines and we are all safe now, right?
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
sabenapilot
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:56 am

the B777 experienced not one but TWO inflight shutdowns JUST before delivery though!

WHOW. That's scary!
Luckily it wasn't on the same flight, or that B777-300ER would not have made it across the pond... Any less apart these 2 incidents and the crew must seriously start reviewing their ditching procedures....

Seriously, does anybody know how much chance there is this can actually happen one day? I have no idea, but even if the chance is only 1 in 100 billion of flights it WILL happen one day... And maybe 'fate' will not wait till all those billions of flights are completed before proving Murphy's law.

[Edited 2004-06-09 01:59:07]
 
MITaero
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:24 am

You people argue about the dumbest things. Sabenapilot, you do realize your argument applies to 4 engines as well, don't you, since it "WILL" happen?

Chill.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:30 am

I have no idea, but even if the chance is only 1 in 100 billion of flights it WILL happen one day... And maybe 'fate' will not wait till all those billions of flights are completed before proving Murphy's law.

The 737 which has peformed rapid, short cycles every day since 1968 has yet to reach 125 million flights. Since a twin-failure on the 777 is calculated at one per billion flights, the 777 could easily go its entire life without reaching a billion flights. Thus, it is statistically possible that the 777 never has a twin failure.

But sure, fate might not wait until the end of these billion flights to screw one unlucky Triple-7. But it remains that the 777 has been flying for 9 years without a single write-off.
 
JohnJ
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:35 pm

"I was waiting at the train station yesterday to go to work when AF's 773ER passed over me heading into R22L at JFK. She was coming rather high. About a few minutes later she reappeared from the southeast and passed over me again."

I've spotted at 22L on several occasions and have seen go-arounds on that runway just about every time I've been there (I have a shot of a KLM 777 on a missed approach to 22L in the database). That must be a tough runway. One thing about your comment, though, gives rise to question: how long was it between sightings of the AF 773? It would take more than just a couple of minutes to fly out the missed approach from 22L and get re-established on 31L/R - probably 15-20 minutes at best, I would think.
 
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CaptSkibi
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:58 pm

MITaero

You people argue about the dumbest things. Sabenapilot, you do realize your argument applies to 4 engines as well, don't you, since it "WILL" happen?

It did happen, to a British Airways B747 enroute from either Kuala Lumpur or Singapore to Australia. They happened to fly into the ash from an erupting volcano at night, so they couldn't see it. This was before ash was reported in the meteorological reports. They managed to get their engines restarted below 18,000', I believe, as this was the floor of the ash.

There was a show on this on Discovery Wings (I think) not too long ago. I don't remember all the numbers (i.e. flight and date), but it was quite a fascinating story.
Private Pilot, Airplane Single Engine Land / former frequent flyer with 9 straight years being elite on NW/DL
 
sabenapilot
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 5:19 pm

MITaero...

You people argue about the dumbest things. Sabenapilot, you do realize your argument applies to 4 engines as well, don't you, since it "WILL" happen?

If an A340 would loose not one but 2 of its engines it is only at a level of emergency comparable to that of a B777 using its ETOPS qualification... Chances a quad looses ALL 4 engines are simply non-existent unless of course you have fuel starvation or a flight through an ash cloud: 2 cases where the number of engines doesn't matter...


DFWRevolution,
The 737 which has performed rapid, short cycles every day since 1968 has yet to reach 125 million flights. Since a twin-failure on the 777 is calculated at one per billion flights, the 777 could easily go its entire life without reaching a billion flights. Thus, it is statistically possible that the 777 never has a twin failure.

Yes, but a B737 or in fact any other short haul twin suffering an engine failure will not have to look as far for a landing field like a long haul twin is supposed to do; it will easily find a divertion airport and land asap, thus not play with fate the way ETOPS planes now do. The shorter the time is between the first engine failure and the landing, the lower the risk pax will have to swim one day. Staying airborne for 60 minutes after an engine failure is the basic requirement for any plane; 120 or even 180 is already pushing it a bit but when I read things like 300 and more minutes it just isn't safe enough anymore to me, sorry.

But sure, fate might not wait until the end of these billion flights to screw one unlucky Triple-7. But it remains that the 777 has been flying for 9 years without a single write-off.

Indeed, 9 rather uneventful years but in this field, time is your enemy! Statistics show you it will happen and the longer it takes before it actually happens, the more likely it is it is going to happen....
Just have a look at the Space shuttle; Can't remember what the calculated failure rate was, but is was 1 in menny ten thousands; however, fate did not even wait till 100 it struck.... And it did it 2 times already.
 
northseatiger
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:55 pm

Technically speaking flying through ash is'nt the type of inflight shutdown we're talking about here as this as an external component causing the engine to shutdown, I would term this type of in flight shutdown as bearing failure, fcu failure, oil pressure/temp problems.
T's And P's look good....Rotate
 
ramerinianair
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:43 pm

Roberta,
Like I've said before, no matter what the disscussion, you will always try and dis-credit the boeing product. For that fact alone people should respond back to your pesimestic comments.
SR
W N = my Worst Nightmare!!!!!
 
LMP737
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:35 am

Sabenapilot:

The shuttle analogy is not a good one. The shuttle operates in the most extreme environment known to man. Compared to that aircraft operate in a rather tame environment.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
initref
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:47 am

I don't want to get into the A vs B argument here, but considering the ETOPS expansion, I wonder if Boeing did the right thing with engine exclusivity and GE.

One small problem that leads to more IFSD on the GE engines will affect the whole fleet. Having two engine manufacturers will mitigate that risk, but I am sure Boeing had many compelling reasons to choose the GE exclusive option.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:57 am

LMP737,

In no way am I comparing the space shuttle to any airplane, the only reason I point to the space shuttle accidents is because they are real prove an accident sometimes happens before the statistical moment they are supposed to happen. And not once, but even twice!
 
MITaero
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:31 am

>Chances a quad looses ALL 4 engines are simply non-existent

The same can be said about 2 engine aircraft. It's still extremely unlikely to have 2 independent engine failures on the same flight. Not anything to get worried about - especially as engine technology and maintenance improves. There are more serious issues to focus on.
 
NWA742
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 2:44 am

Well since some on here (Roberta, Sabenapilot) feel this is a time to discredit Boeing and the 777, I'll just say this:

Wouldn't an engine failure be a problem with the GE product, not the 777?

Indeed, 9 rather uneventful years but in this field, time is your enemy! Statistics show you it will happen and the longer it takes before it actually happens, the more likely it is it is going to happen....

As a pilot, Sabenapilot, I'd figure you'd have a little more sense in your head. You really think it's inevitable that someday we'll have a 777 lose both engines on a longhaul flight and crash. Well, why can't the same things be said about your beloved Airbus products, The A32X, the A330, The A300/310?

There's always an extremely small risk of ANY twin (yeah, ANY, not just those crappy Boeing planes  Insane) losing both engines in flight, and statistically it's impossible.

With our technology these days, 4 engines 4 longhaul means just about nothing.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
UA744KSFO
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:13 am

Ah............. The old A v. B crap again. Gotta love it  Sad

How is it that we turn a thread where someone is excited about seeing a plane twice into the ritualistic transatlantic trashing?
 
miaskies
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:27 am

Geez...I've been reading these posts for a while..And I finally joined! About 5 min ago...I must say the BOEING vs AIRBUS posts are quite ridiculous!

Both companies produce fantastic airplanes...They all have something for everyone.

So the B773ER Engine had a shutdown...It happens. Airbus has had problems also, lets not forget the Airbus A320 Crash after takeoff during an inaugural airshow. That didn't stop people from liking or buying the plane...Obviously!

So congrats to AF on their B773ER's...And hello to all my fellow enthusiasts!
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
ualonghaul
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:27 am

If I am not mistaken, Airlines go to Boeing to pick up planes, they are not "devliered" to the airline. A through check is preformed by the airline before the plane leaves Boeing factory. If this is the case, any sort of trouble on a delivery flight occured under the control of the Airfrance crew.

Now, this event is obviously under the control of Airfrance, no one else.

This is not any A vs B, this is a simple fact that Airfrrance appears to have little control over the planes they are flying.

I am not a fan of Airfrance and i never will be. Do they even have a terminal to fly into at CDG? Not only do they have trouble flying planes, they have trouble building a terminal building that doesnt lead to the death of innocent pax.

You are not going to see my flying Airfrance anytime soon, especially en lieu of these recent "events".

Don't harp on me about not liking Airfrance, nothing you say is going to convience me otherwise so save your breath.
 
miaskies
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:29 am

Well im not a die hard fan of AF either...but I must say do enjoy those complimentary cocktails on the CDG-BCN leg! hahaha!
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
boeingbus
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:33 am

Folks, this failure occurred during the test phase and BEFORE the plane was delivered to AF. Now, we won't discredit the A330 because it crashed before its first delivery?

I am sure the problem has been investigated and corrected... FAA would not allow a plane to fly filled with passengers with engine problems...

Please get over it and end this stupid discussion... it happened and most likely its not going to come up again...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
darkblue
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:37 am

Just have a look at the Space shuttle; Can't remember what the calculated failure rate was, but is was 1 in menny ten thousands; however, fate did not even wait till 100 it struck.... And it did it 2 times already.

Actually the calculated failure rate for the space shuttle is far below 1 in many ten thousands. Back in the 1980's, the original probability for a catastrophic failure rate for the shuttle was estimated to be around 1 in 200 flights. Now I believe rate is estimated to be around 1 in 400 or 500 flights. Yes, 2 catastrophes in 113 missions is still higher than 1 in 500, but you really don't have enough data to make a good statistical assessment.

DB
 
Vorticity
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 3:39 am

Indeed, 9 rather uneventful years but in this field, time is your enemy! Statistics show you it will happen and the longer it takes before it actually happens, the more likely it is it is going to happen....
Just have a look at the Space shuttle; Can't remember what the calculated failure rate was, but is was 1 in menny ten thousands; however, fate did not even wait till 100 it struck.... And it did it 2 times already.


Err, not really. Statistics says you have a 50% chance of getting head or tales on a coin flip. If you flip that coin 10 times, and they are all tails (all things being equal), the next time you flip that coin, the chances are still 50/50.
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
sabenapilot
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Thu Jun 10, 2004 4:23 am

Hey, when did I discredit the B777, NWA742?

...a B737 or in fact any other short haul twin suffering an engine failure will not have to look as far for a landing field like a long haul twin is supposed to do; it will easily find a divertion airport and land asap, thus not play with fate the way ETOPS planes now do. The shorter the time is between the first engine failure and the landing, the lower the risk pax will have to swim one day. Staying airborne for 60 minutes after an engine failure is the basic requirement for any plane; 120 or even 180 is already pushing it a bit but when I read things like 300 and more minutes it just isn't safe enough anymore to me, sorry.

I just don't like the whole ETOPS stuff too much... I simply am not a fan of it, especially not now they keep on pushing those time limits further and further.

Cant help it your beloved B777 is 'only' a twin... As you say correctly, I wouldn't like to be on a A32F flying transoceanic too for the same reasons... Call me oldfashioned, but there just is an accident waiting to happen there and I do not want to be part of it, sorry. That's how I feel: 4 engines 4 longhaul for me...


Just a small thought for those who don't see my point:
suppose tomorrow they can built an engine twice as reliable as the most reliable engine we have available now... would you go transpacific, out of reach of any coastline for maybe 6 hrs, on a single engined plane? I certainly would not be to fond of it... I am not saying I never would (I have also flown transatlantic on ETOPS A330s) but it just does not give me much reassurances.

 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:38 am

suppose tomorrow they can built an engine twice as reliable as the most reliable engine we have available now...

Anecdotal comparison.

Such an "improvement" would be so small as to be statistically insignificant in all parameters  Insane
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Guest

RE: AF 773ER Missed Approach At JFK

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:29 am

Well since some on here (Roberta, Sabenapilot) feel this is a time to discredit Boeing and the 777, I'll just say this:

Discredit Boeing!

Where exactly did i do this.

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