N62NA
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UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 8:50 am

This came up on another thread, but I was wondering what views people have on the statement:


I have always thought if United or American used their 3 class 767s from Newark to LAX, they would pick up more business travelers.


I kind of agree, given all the corporate headquarters and huge amount of businesses with major offices in northern NJ. Those people can't ALL be flying on CO out of EWR, can they?

EWR has always been treated as a second class airport compared to JFK in my opinion... and this goes way back before CO ever had the hub at EWR.
 
AA787
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:01 am

AA and UA have already committed to JFK. The 3 class 762's, for AA at least, are all based at JFK. AA has a new terminal going up there. In addition, many people from NJ ARE flying CO, but when AA and UA first arrived on the scene, that part of the tri-state area was not that important. They focused on Connecticut, Westchester, Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn and Long Island because that's where the people were. AA and UA still have a reasonable operation at EWR, and it may grow when the proposed new Terminal A is built.

AA, UA, DL=JFK/LGA
CO=EWR
(for the most part)

AA787
ET In NYC
 
cx123
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:08 am

Yeah, EWR is always perceived as a second rated airport (compared to JFK) But i mean most airports in USA are so........
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:16 am

N62NA-Are you joking? EWR has a lot more daily flights to ORD than JFK has...if you consider JFK that major of a city for United, consider this: JFK has a combined ZERO daily flights on UA to ORD and DEN, their two largest hubs. Likewise, American has nothing between JFK and ORD, their second largest hub, and only three daily MD-80's between JFK and DFW (compared to 7 from EWR and 13 MD-80/83/738's from LGA), and Delta has 4 daily mainlines between JFK and ATL (two 763's, a 757 as Song, an MD80) and a quintet of CRJ's, whereas EWR has an even dozen (9 MD80's, along with a 757 and two 738's) and LGA has 16 (5 MD80's, 4 757's, 6 763's, and a 764, the only 7 widebodies LGA sees all day), and then with CVG, JFK sees 4 (2 763's, 2 CRJ's), EWR sees 6 (2 CRJ's, 3 732's and a 738) and LGA sees 7 (2 CRJ's, 2 738's, 2 MD80's, and a 757)...and you tell me which airport is disrespected...hint: it certainly isn't EWR or LGA
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
AA787
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:20 am

As a New Yorker, I find EWR to be nicer, its just that when you fly out of EWR you always feel like your missing something. When you look out the window at 20 CO 737s lined up, you think to yourself, "the line-up at JFK has to be more interesting!" JFK is like a New York tourist spot. No trip is complete without flying into JFK and experiencing true New York hospitality!!!!  Big thumbs up

AA787
ET In NYC
 
AA787
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:24 am

SHUpirate-AA and UA send all their flights from hubs to LGA. Thats why I said

AA, UA, DL=JFK/LGA
CO=EWR

AA787
ET In NYC
 
N62NA
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:26 am


N62NA-Are you joking?


Not joking at all! There has been lots of discussion on here as to why there isn't any traffic to speak of between JFK and ORD, DFW, ATL and that has to do with the fact that LGA is pretty much JFK's domestic operation.

But, the original reason for the post was specifically re: AA and UA transcon service out of JFK versus EWR and not just number of flights, but the fact that almost all LAX and SFO traffic on these two airlines from JFK is widebody while EWR is almost always narrowbody (and lately on UA, the A319 LAX-EWR!).

Given the quickly shrinking number of flights at JFK by UA (they now only serve LAX, SFO, AA), Japan">NRT and LHR), the real topic here is AA and how it views it's transcon services from EWR vs JFK.
 
N62NA
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:27 am

Sorry about all italics above. I must have forgot an html tag somewhere!
 
AA787
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:31 am

AA views JFK as a Focus airport. I hope it becomes a hub when the new terminal is done and hopefully JFK will become AA's main European gateway. AA is at JFK, but they do have 763 LAX-EWR service (I may be wrong).

AA787
ET In NYC
 
SHUPirate1
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:36 am

AA-What I said wasn't directed at you...

N62NA-I know that the discussion comes up all the time...I'm usually the one who starts that discussion...the EWR/LGA/JFK situation is the one that frustrates me to no end, especially when you consider that LaGuardia is the only one of the PANYNJ-3 without any rail transportation (JFK and EWR both have the AirTrain) and I have to either park my car at LGA, which is nearly impossible (particularly if you are staying a Thursday and Friday night, and as a result cannot park on the street, which is barely safe anyway) or take a livery service (which, from Oceanside, isn't exactly cheap)
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
N62NA
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:46 am


AA is at JFK, but they do have 763 LAX-EWR service (I may be wrong).


Yeah, they used to, but lately they have been back to 757 and even 738 at times.

SHUPirate1, my sympathies to you! I usually try to fly up to the NYC area via EWR on AA, and I cringe on those times when I have to use LGA instead. The fact that LGA has no rail transportation is unfortunate, but my original post was commenting on someone's observation specifically about UA and AA at EWR.


 
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STT757
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 12:43 pm

AA has one of their current EWR-LAX flights as a 767-300, besides that AA and UAL are in the process of making huge cuts to their trans-Con service from both EWR and JFK.

UAL prior to 9-11 flew 7 daily nonstops from EWR-SFO, now they are down to 2 or 3.

UAL has the smallest market share in NYC of the big 6, with the retirement of their 767-200 fleet and the lingering bankruptcy look for big changes. UAL is already scheduling 757s on some trans-cons from JFK, eventualy look for 757s and even A320s to take over many routes. They way things are going UAL may be totaly out of the market in the next year or two, the NYC-West Coast flights are not the cash cows they once were.

The LCCs are hitting the yields on the Trans-Cons hard, the majors are loosing money on routes that were once their most profitable. The days of three class all widebody service from NYC to LAX and SFO are slipping fast, long live the A320, 737NG and the 757.

AA, CO and DL can continue to route some International 767s on Domestic Trans-Cons from JFK and EWR, however the days of dedicated fleets of aircraft just to serve the Trans-con market is over.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
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STT757
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 1:06 pm

Just to add a futher point,

The NYC/East Coast- West Coast market is going the same route NYC-Florida routes went in the 1980s.

In the 1980s-early 1990s all the airlines flew wide bodies from EWR, LGA, JFK to Florida.

I've personaly flown..

Eastern L1011

LGA-MIA

Pan Am DC-10-10

EWR-TPA

Pan Am

TPA-EWR L1011-500

CO A300-

CO / KMCO), USA - Florida">MCO (Many times!)

The growth of low fare carries, first PeoplExpress, then Carnival, Kiwi, Spirit, then DL Express, Jetblue, Continental Lite, Metro Jet etc.. Pretty much killed the wide body NYC- Florida flights.


TWA used to fly L1011s from LGA to PBI, JFK-CO / KMCO), USA - Florida">MCO

Eastern used to fly A300s, L1011s from EWR, JFK, LGA to Florida

DL flew L1011s, 767s from EWR, LGA and JFK to Florida.

Now you have Jetblue flying 14 (!) daily nonstops from JFK to FLL.

In a few years the NYC-West Coast market will be dominated by A320s, 737NGs and 757s.

The hold outs will be AA, CO and perhaps DL (if they are still around), they will operate 767s which operate from JFK/EWR to Europe/Latin America on these routes. Instead of having a dedicated fleet of Wide Bodies for Trans-cons they will route International flights through to the West Coast instead of having them sit on the ground in EWR/JFK, they will be able to use Widebodies to the West Coast because of better International aircraft utilization.

I expect AA to try and maintain all widebody service from JFK to LAX, but their JFK-SFO flights will definetly get some 757s as well as 767-300s.

CO as well as DL will continue to route "some" of their International 767s through to LAX, however that will be the extent.

UAL as I mentioned before either downsizes to A320s/757s or is not competing at all within the next couple years.

Just to add to the LCC competition, Virgin USA is going to have it's headquarters in NYC and it's hub in SFO. NYC-SF will be probably be their first route.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N62NA
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:01 pm


AA has one of their current EWR-LAX flights as a 767-300,


Just one correction, today's schedule is 738,757,757.

I pretty much agree with the rest of what you said, STT757.
 
AA787
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:05 am

STT757- I can't imagine how AA can be losing money on their LAX-JFK flight if they just boosted it up to 10X daily flights!!!

But yes, the rest I agree with too,
AA787
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qqflyboy
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 9:48 am

AA previously had flown a three-class 762 from EWR to LAX. The fact that it is gone must be proof it wasn't worth it. And as for AA scaling back its transoncs from JFK, they've added two JFK-LAX flights in the past few months, so things there are looking up, not down. A quick look at SABRE for 10Jun shows 12 LAX-JFK flights on 762s. All LAX-EWR flights are 757s.

However, AA's three-class transcons are down, as a whole. AA used to operate BOS-LAX/SFO and LAX-IAD with three-class 762s, but those are all now being operated by 757s and 738s. I guess that's even more proof of how profitable LAX-JFK is for AA. I was told at a meeting in the past JFK-LAX is one of the top five markets for revenue for AA. Number one is DFW-ORD. And just for facts, AA operates 15 MD-80s and one 777 between DFW and ORD. Also on top is DFW-LGA. That route's flown 13 times a day with a mix of MD-80s and 738s.
The views expressed are mine alone and do not necessarily reflect my employer’s views.
 
b727fan
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:04 am

True, JFK always comes to mind first when thinking about the NYC metro airports, and why not, it is located in NY and if I am not mistaking, it serves as the largest Int'l. Airport in the area. HOWEVER, the good old EWR is also one of the busiest airports in the country. (I hear it handles more traffic than JFk, but not sure) One thing that we must take in to consideration is the fact that EWR does not have the capability of handling too many large and wide body planes like JFk. Also having shorter runways with no room to expand at EWR, enables JFK to be the "leader" per-se! But it is a very easily get-to airport, and for its size, its got a pretty impressive resume for both traffic and diversity. I think if EWR could expand (runways, parking & terminals) it would have even GREATER potentials! Unfortunately, it is bounded by some of the major and heavily traveled roads in the Tristate area!
p.s. AA787, I agree with you about the "too many 737's and oh, dont forget the ERJs!!"
 
Bsmalls35
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:29 am

I have always thought that EWRs biggest gap in service was 3 class transcon flights. I even remember when delta had non-stop service between ewr & lax in the 90s. Hopefully in the not to distant future, UA & AA will build up their service at EWR. However, I won't be holding my breath.
 
N62NA
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:07 am


I even remember when delta had non-stop service between ewr & lax in the 90s.

Really?! I must have missed that one.

Do you know what equipment they used? My guess would be 757.
 
tommy767
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:29 am

Wow. I remember reading in the star ledger in 1999 that United had 80 flights out of EWR per day! Now they are down too much. I'm getting fed up. I'm sick of seeing those continental tails at EWR (as much as I do like CO, it gets boring.)

Back on topic. Well United is a lost cause in EWR now as they don't serve any widebodies to California as they did in previous years. I remember them flying 777s into San Francisco back in 1999. Well all that is gone, and now were down to A319s  Insane .

AA I have some respect for. They still serve a good 43 flights per day out of EWR, and they are the 2nd biggest carrier here. As for the trans-cons, I wish I could have tested a route on the 763 out in April when I went out to Los Angeles, but I took CO. Now it is documented that 757s and 738s will come and take over the EWR market. Still, 4 years ago AA was flying 3 757s per day to LA. I think AA should take more advantage of transcons in EWR, and start to fly a San Jose and San Francisco route. Well, we will have to see what happens in the future. A new addition of Terminal A is planned, so maybe AA will gain a few flights here.

JFK gets soo many transcons that its unbearable. I do like JFK though, but EWR is my home airport.
"KEEP CLIMBING" -- DELTA
 
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STT757
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:34 am

DL flew twice daily 767-200s from EWR to LAX, even after they took over Pan Am's JFK operations.

I have a DL timetable from '92 and it shows 2 daily EWR-LAX 767-200s and 1 daily JFK-LAX A310.

EWR's two main runways are 11,000 ft long and support nonstop flights to Hong Kong and Singapore, I would not consider them short.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
N62NA
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:48 am

Wow, 1992 would have been a great time to take a transcon from EWR. I remember taking a flight EWR-LAX either in the late 80s or early 90s on CO and it was on a 747. Now that was fun!

I agree with Tommy767 that UA is a lost cause at EWR. I'm not sure how much more service they can cut. But it isn't just limited to EWR, they've got a major problem on their hands at JFK too, with service to just AA), Japan">NRT, LAX, SFO and LHR... Not to mention their recent cutbacks here at MIA.

Seems as if AA is adding more flights and UA keeps cutting back. I guess if that's what UA has to do to get out of bankruptcy, then they have to.

Thanks also to STT757 for the DL 767-200 EWR-LAX info!
 
Bsmalls35
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 5:45 pm

Just to update STT757's post, I believe EWRs runways are 11,000, 9,800 & 6,800 feet long.
 
CarbHeatIn
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:09 pm

they've got a major problem on their hands at JFK too, with service to just AA), Japan">AA), Japan">NRT, LAX, SFO and LHR... Not to mention their recent cutbacks here at MIA.

UA also serves IAD from JFK.

Whereas AA, CO and to a lesser degree DL use the NYC metro airports as Hubs, UA have moved towards exploiting NYC as an O&D market primarily.(Although one of the LHR flights does continue on to the West coast). United has no non-hub flights out of NYC. Transcons to JFK. ORD and DEN to LGA. EWR gets all to a lesser extent.

Uniteds' east coast hub is nearby IAD. By pursuing a strategy of O&D UA has cut down on the associated costs of providing transfers/connections, not to mention crew accomodation in NYC. I'm not sure I would categorise such a strategy as a "major problem".

That said, I was extremely impressed with UA's terminal 7 at JFK (especially compared to AA's dumps in 8 and 9) and would much prefer to connect there at the moment vis-a-vis IAD. Perhaps this will change with the renovations at IAD.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:05 am

Terminal 7 is the British Airways Terminal, they built (UAL is just a tenant).

Terminal 9 which you consider a "dump" is the former UAL terminal, they built it. They occupied until the 1990s.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
CarbHeatIn
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:16 am

Well it was a smart move to switch to Term 7, much nicer imo. It will be interesting to see what AA come up with.
 
ualonghaul
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:07 am

I think UA will add something later in the evening from EWR with the arrival of SQ SIN-EWR.

Making my return July 3 I had to take a 73o out of EWR to IAD to get back to ORD that night. They are cutting the connection real close, with a small plane (CRJ i think) to be connecting a good part of the country with SIN-EWR.

Getting there is fine, since the flight is so late, but getting out after getting in is going to be tight.
 
Bsmalls35
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:12 am

This post has me reminiscing about United's nonstop service from EWR to London, Tokyo, Seattle, San Diego, Miami and Boston which have all disappeared.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:23 am

UAL also flew nonstop EWR-HNL with 747s in the mid 1980s.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Benjamin
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Mon Jun 14, 2004 3:50 am

I have heard that UA is trying to get non-stop JFK-HNL service. Anyone hear this?
 
sdkualeb
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:01 am

UA Is only concentrating on hub flying only, I don't think that they will set some thing up like that
 
CarbHeatIn
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:44 pm

HNL is evolving into a HUB of sorts for UA with 13 wide-body departures daily, however I'd imagine IAD-HNL would be favoured over JFK-HNL
 
sdkualeb
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 16, 2004 3:52 am

UAL Is laying off another 18 CSR's at EWR more ramp and office staff, Yet they have more upper management then a lot other station that are bigger then EWR. It is truly a shame what they have done there.
 
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STT757
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:08 am

UAL has a maintenance operation at EWR, they have a hangar which was quite active. Im not sure what they are doing there now but there was always either a UAL 757 or a HP jet in the hangar getting worked on, they also built a brand new Cargo building adjacent to the Hangar.

Im not sure UAL needs the Newark Maintenance base any more, maybe they could work out a deal and swap the Newark UAL hangar for the CO hangar at Denver.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
nosedive
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:41 am

Im not sure UAL needs the Newark Maintenance base any more, maybe they could work out a deal and swap the Newark UAL hangar for the CO hangar at Denver.

Good idea, though I'm sure F9 would throw a fit. And UA already has a set of hangars @ DEN. Does anyone know the arrangement b/w CO and F9, regarding the CO hangar @ DEN?

I do know that, as of last year, EWR had a flight from LHR, as I flew on it....
 
N62NA
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RE: UA And AA At EWR

Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:36 pm


I do know that, as of last year, EWR had a flight from LHR, as I flew on it....


Just curious... how full was the flight?

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