soaringadi
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772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:13 am

Hey.....
I am seriously troubled that many airlines like SQ, EK etc. are (or rather have) going/gone for the 345 over the 200 L.r. I don't know why is this so...., and I feel that since the 777 has over proven itself in the past, and at the same time also taking into mind the 343's performance.... I think airlines should be preferring to go for the 200 L.R.

And as I have seen even today no one is opting for the L.R.'s.... It's pretty sad to know this...... what do you think is the reason ????

hope the future for the 777 is very very bright....  Smile
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
Horus
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:18 am

The problem with these unltra long range aircraft is that they are niche aircraft so they will never sell in any big numbers. Currently there are only 5 orders for the 772LR (3 Eva air, 2 PIA).
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airxliban
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 9:31 am

For one thing, the 777-200LR has not even flown yet. In fact, they haven't even finished making the first one.

That in itself is a major reason.

Also as already stated, these aircraft are niche aircraft. You won't see Singapore Airlines ordering 50 of them. You won't see 777-200LRs outnumbering MD-80's in American Airlines fleet anytime soon.
PARIS, FRANCE...THE BEIRUT OF EUROPE.
 
767-332ER
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 10:56 am


I think that we should consider that as the American companies start dissolving/merging/coming out of bankruptcy...and so forth, that they will consider the aircraft in the future. Think about the number of possibilities of operations...as someone had mentioned in another post...DL ATL-HKG...AA DFW-SYD...but of course the financial situations have to improve and it'll be a few years before this becomes a sweet and nice reality.
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Wed Jun 09, 2004 11:12 am

I am seriously troubled that many airlines like SQ, EK etc. are (or rather have) going/gone for the 345 over the 200 L.r. I don't know why is this so....,

SQ, and possibly EK, went for the A345 because it was the only avilable Ultra-Long Haul (ULH) aircraft at the time. It took Boeing a while to decide on a course of action to combat the A345/346 for a number of reasons, but they finally settled on the 772LR and 773ER in February 2000, several years after Airbus had finalized the A345/A346.

Boeing knew it's aircraft wouldn't get to market firts and planned for a 772LR EOS in 2004-2005. Then 9/11 caught everyone off gaurd, and the two 772LR customers asked Boeing to defer their deliveries until 2006. With no one asking for 772LRs any sooner, Boeing delayed the program by 18 months. Boeing has resumed development, and the first 772LR should enter production in October.

and I feel that since the 777 has over proven itself in the past, and at the same time also taking into mind the 343's performance.... I think airlines should be preferring to go for the 200 L.R.

Remember that much of the preference to the A345 exist because it was the only avilable ULH aircraft at the time. Airlines will order the 772LR in time and the possibility of removing the extra fuel tanks turns the 772LR into an ultra-high MTOW version of the 772ER as well as a freighter version of the 777.

The better-than expected performance of the 773ER in testing/certification has made Boeing condfident in its performance expectations of the 772LR. This is going to be a great aircraft  Big thumbs up
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:38 am

Then 9/11 caught everyone off gaurd, and the two 772LR customers asked Boeing to defer their deliveries until 2006

BR was the only customer at the time. PK did not order until 14mo after 9/11.



Boeing delayed the program by 18 months

17  Big grin



This is going to be a great aircraft

Too right  Big thumbs up
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mlsrar
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:41 am

Welcome back CB! Has there been a firm EIS date announced?
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 2:51 am

Not that I know of.... PK is saying Jan '06 though
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keesje
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:11 am

I think the potential market for 772LR will be limited to trans pacific carriers such as UA, NWA, JAL, ANA and a few other Chinees perhaps middle east carriers. The 772ER seems to be restricted on the full pass/cargo routes.

it could be that some recent shut down/diversions incident involving ETOPS 777´s don´t strenghten the statistics used to get the ETOPS >213 min´s case through with the FAA/EASA..



Another point : many airlines that wanted the 777, have them already ..

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solnabo
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:57 am

Keesje:
That´s my "nightmarevision" in the skies!! *LOL*

Mike//SE  Big thumbs up
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AvObserver
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:40 am

"The 772ER seems to be restricted on the full pass/cargo routes."

Dfw and C.B., what are your takes on this? I don't recall reading this in either AW&ST or FI. Could this be a significant handicap against the A345, despite the 772ER's somewhat greater range?

We all know how you feel, Solnabo. From another of your recent posts, I think it would be a huge kick to kidnap you, put you on a long-haul 777 and then bribe the pilots to intentionally shutdown one of the engines and inform you it was an inflight failure (assuming something as massively illegal as this could be pulled off, which, obviously, it couldn't be!). I'm sure from that post that your reaction would be priceless and well worth whatever trouble taken to get you there.  Laugh out loud Aw, I'm only pulling your leg, no need to get ticked at me, it's all in good fun! You're okay, Michael!  Big thumbs up
 
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solnabo
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:50 am

AvObserver:
Puhleeze.....I would be a basketcase for years!!
*lmao*
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
AvObserver
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:11 am

Just having a little fun with you - no offense intended. Big grin You may be interested to know that I too somewhat share your nervousness about being on long-range twins, though not to the extent that I wouldn't fly one. It's not even necessarily an A vs. B issue; if Airbus wasn't reluctant to perhaps undermine their LR quad sales, they'd likely have HGW A332s and A333s flying such routes but that's not their focus. Even if I stay in the Boeing camp, though, I'd feel better on a 744 than on a 777, just my own preference, not saying that LR twins are unsafe (so don't jump on my case, twin boosters).  Big grin
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:02 am

The 777LR will probably never make Boeing a dime.  Insane

What it could be effective as, is a loss-leader product line. Being able to offer a purchaser a family of aircraft that can fulfill ALL their mission needs can often be an order clincher. So that extra two or three frames can be tagged on to a potential order for thirty or more of the 772 and 773 family, giving the client commonality and flexibility. A potential order clincher.

I doubt whether the 772LR would ever have flown under recent Boeing leadership, as in the dark Condit days an order book of only 5 wouldn't be justification for a prototype and certification program. Hopefully Boeing is now starting to invest in the future again.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
trevd
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:33 am

Time will tell of course, but I believe Boeing's strategy is to put a stake in the A340-500 and further erode the viability of the A340 series.

Granted, both the A345 and 772LR are 'niche' airplanes for such ultra long range routes, but the lackluster performance of the A345 as evidenced by the huge weight (OEW) restrictions on Singapores LAX routes being limited to only 185 seats show that airplane to be right at the edge of its performance capability.

If Boeing is able to bring the 772LR in on spec (no reason not to think so - the 773ER came in 'better' than expected), it will be able to fly that same route with 300 seats and 20% less fuel.

If point-to-point does turn out to be the way the market goes, the 772LR will be the perfect choice for those medium density, long-range routes.
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:05 am

There is a precedent in the Boeing catalog, the 747SP.

Again a niche aircraft, but one that offered commonality and flexibility to 747 operators who needed a few more aircraft capable of the longer sectors.

I doubt whether Boeing made money on the SP either, but operators such as Iran Air, South African and Pan Am all included it in their 747 fleet purchases.

As the saying goes...sometimes you have to speculate to accumulate. The 777LR will be an excellent compliment to the 777 family as a whole, and makes it more desirable as an overall solution to the airlines.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Propulsion
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:20 am

Yes, I agree that the 772LR is indeed conceived for both a niche, albeit small market, but that its contribution to the Boeing 777 family is arguably vital. As parallels to the 747SP have indicated, the 772LR may never be profitable but its impact on the enhancing the appeal of the 777 model family as a basis for an airlines' long-haul route network is arguably rather large even if it not directly ordered.

Its apparent lack of orders is probably very much due to a combination of temporal issues (Airbus offering first in this marketplace etc.) and the dire state of airlines that could very well benefit from it. I am in agreement that many a US carrier, especially the trans-pacific operators, could bolster their services with the addition of this aircraft. Unfortunately, it is unlikely to be acquired anytime soon unless the financial situation of the likes of UA and the others improves significantly to allow such expansion and the introduction of new, premium, ultra-long range point to point routes.
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DfwRevolution
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:26 am

The 777LR will probably never make Boeing a dime.

I beg to differ. Boeing has already booked 76 777LR customers, with 71 773ER and 5 772LR customers. The 773ER hasn't been in service one month, more orders are sure to come, and you think it will never make a dime? Singapore could order in the next few weeks....

While the 777LR involved modest engineering work, it is nothing of the scope (and cost) of the radical reengineering of the A340. The major changes include certification of the new GE90-115, strengthened landing gear and brakes, provisions for additional fuel, wingtip extensions, and for the 773ER only, semilevered landing gear.

I doubt whether the 772LR would ever have flown under recent Boeing leadership, as in the dark Condit days an order book of only 5 wouldn't be justification for a prototype and certification program.

It is a minimum change over the 772ER. New engines, stronger landing gear and breaks, more fuel, wingtips.... since this is required for the 773ER anyway it makes absolutly no sense *not* to apply these upgrades to a 772. And what makes you think it will only book 5 orders of the life of the aircraft?

Being able to offer a purchaser a family of aircraft that can fulfill ALL their mission needs can often be an order clincher

And the 777 has proven beyond doubt that it outperforms each of its A340 counterparts... the true "order clincher." If the 777 were the inferior aircraft then your argument might make sense... because your basically saying the 772LR is a 764ER-like product designed just to keep a few Boeing loyals happy. Since we know the 772LR will outperform the A345, that argument doesn't hold any water.
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:37 am

Dfw

Did you actually read my original post?

The 777LR will require a prototype and certification. Just as the 767-400 did.

The 777-200LR is NOT the same aircraft as the 777-300ER. Just as the 767-400 is NOT the same as the 767-300. You cannot lump orders in together and baldly state that one is the same as the other when both will need type certification and trials. Which cost money. There are a few more $$$ to be spent after that pretty new aircraft rolls out of the plant for the first time before it gets to a buyer. Money that Boeing might never recoup on the one product line alone, unless it offsets it against sales of the whole family.

It is also a lot more than 'minimum change' over the 777-200ER. Do weights, systems and fuel capacity not count then?

And please do not edit my posts to suit your own agenda. At no stage did I say that the 777LR would only book 5 frames. Nor did I make, as you do, the blind and unfounded assumption that an unbuilt and untested aircraft will automatically meet or exceed its projections.

That's what prototypes and testing is all about.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:09 am

Nor did I make, as you do, the blind and unfounded assumption that an unbuilt and untested aircraft will automatically meet or exceed its projections.

Its sister aircraft (the 773ER) exceeded its expectations allowing Boeing to up the performance expectations by of the nearly identical 772LR to over 9,280nm. The 772LR could fail by 6% and still hold a payload and range advantage over the A345, and there are zero indications that the 772LR will not meet its expectations.

You cannot lump orders in together and baldly state that one is the same as the other when both will need type certification and trials.

The 777-200LR and the 777-300ER are both memebers of the 777 Long Range program, an effort by Boeing to counter the A345/A346 and offer customers a superior replacement to older generation 747s. They are members of the same development program, you can lump their orders together.

The 777-200LR is NOT the same aircraft as the 777-300ER

Thank you Cpt. Obvious. The fact remains that many of the upgrades for the 772LR have already been developed, already been built, already certified, and already in passenger service with the 773ER. The 772LR will be even easier to certify than the 773ER.

Take out the semilevered landing gear, derate the GE90-115, take out the 773 fuselage plugs and you have the 772LR. Everything neccesary for 772LR certification is proven technology, nothing new! It is a matter of certification, and the potential for crushing any future A345 customers easily justifies this expense.

Money that Boeing might never recoup on the one product line alone, unless it offsets it against sales of the whole family.

The low orders for the 772LR are offset by the orders for the 773ER, that would be the point of developing them in tandem.

It is also a lot more than 'minimum change' over the 777-200ER. Do weights, systems and fuel capacity not count then?

Yes, I happend to list these systems for you-



The 777 in a nutshell, is two airframes offered in 5 MTOW flavors. The 777-200 (A-market, ER B-market, and LR C-market) and the 777-300 (A-market, and ER B-market). A stronger commonality exist between a GE powered 772ER and a 772LR/773ER than a CFM56 powered A343 and a RR Trent 500 powered A345/A346.

And please do not edit my posts to suit your own agenda. At no stage did I say that the 777LR would only book 5 frames

No, you only said, in your words, "the 777LR will probably never make Boeing a dime." A blind and unfounded assumption perphaps?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:19 am

Dfw and C.B., what are your takes on this? I don't recall reading this in either AW&ST or FI. Could this be a significant handicap against the A345, despite the 772ER's somewhat greater range?

Re-read the statement in question again, and pay attention to the "ER"s versus the "LR"s  Big grin





Something that has yet to be expressed here is that if Airbus ever actually does come up with a 250-300 seat aircraft that can equal/exceed the 772ER in performance specs..... Boeing already has a 772ER-HGW ready to go, in the detanked 772LR.

Granted, it's attempts to market the -NG as a higher MTOW 772ER have been mooted by the high pricing stipend (a bare-bones 772LR still lists for more than an all-options-standard 772ER), that in itself can easily be addressed by Boeing.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:21 am

Please go back and read my original post again.

I stand by what I posted. Volume will probably mean the 777LR will never make a shilling for Boeing. Certification costs will exceed profits from the model. As it did with the 767-400 (remember Boeing's own words...? 200 frames to break even?) which was another niche aircraft, as was the 747SP.

I justified that with the business case of why Boeing should still progress with the program. It's the icing on the 777 family cake. The icing that would potentially sell a fleet to a customer who has a requirement for several missions.

In the world of the armchair CEO the 777LR is Boeing's killer product. In the nasty real world where people spend REAL dollars, it's a niche product which will probably never recoup its costs. But as part of a package it can be a valuable sales tool which lands Boeing bigger 777 family orders.

Is that too hard for you to understand?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:56 am

Certification costs will exceed profits from the model.

Is that too hard for you to understand?



No...
though if you'd pipe down for a second and actually listen to what just about everyone has been trying to drill into your think skull; you'd understand that the certification costs* in both time and finance, are nigh-negligible to Boeing at this point due to most of them [particularly those governing 777NG-specific advancement] already being well-covered by the 773ER--- thus meaning that Boeing would more than likely lose revenue** by not offering the aircraft.


*************
And if that's still too much for you to process, think of it this way:
there are professionals who are p~a~i~d to figure this kinda crap out; so if they've decided that an aircraft, after year-and-a-half hiatus, needs to be built--- chances are, it's for the purpose of benefiting Boeing financially  Big grin



*in both time and finance
**in product availability, ergo customer good-will made manifest into orders
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:00 am

So in other words you agree with me then?

For the one model, strictly defined costs to that one model, Boeing would lose money?

IOW sales of less than 100 units would LOSE them money, but as part of an overall sales strategy could be a profitable exercise?

Or do you also need mathematics 101?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:09 am

So in other words you agree with me then?

No, In other words I said you have no idea WTF you're talking about in this matter.



For the one model, strictly defined costs to that one model, Boeing would lose money?

Apparently, that's the point you seem to be missing: Boeing's lowest threshold of unit cost is the aircraft FAMILY, not the MODEL.



IOW sales of less than 100 units would LOSE them money, but as part of an overall sales strategy could be a profitable exercise?

IOW, sales of less than 100 individual aircraft could LOSE them money, but not offering that individual model could LOSE them MORE money.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:17 am

You are really losing the plot here.

I post supportive comments for the 772LR family and you attack me. Sigh.

I post a business case for continuing the 772LR program and you, in your infinite wisdom, attack me. Sigh.

You must therefore be against Boeing developing the 772LR. Sigh.

Are you sure you are posting in the right forum? I almost added you to my respected users list. OBviously you are on a par with the loons who reckon AA should dump the A300 or US ditch MAN. Keep taking those pills, one day you may make sense.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:26 am

I post a business case for continuing the 772LR program and you, in your infinite wisdom, attack me.

how about "in my confines of the real world"?
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:34 am

So let's break it down shall we?

I work for an airline

Do you?

Next question

I work for an airline outside the US.

Do you?

Third question

I've worked for them for TWENTY FUCKING YEARS

Are you even close? Or are you even out of school?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:36 am

...in as few words as possible: your point?  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:41 am

So I am posting a pro-Boeing point of view from the basis of twenty years of experience.

And do you have a problem with that?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:43 am

No, though I find it amusing that you seem to believe the two to be automatically correlated  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
rjpieces
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:44 am

WhiteHatter, since DFW and ConcordeBoy (welcome back) already tried to convince you why the 772LR has to be looked at with the 773ER (which outperforms the 346 and is waiting for some huuuuuge orders in the coming years), I won't try. Perhaps if you reread some of the above posts, it will become clear to you.

You must therefore be against Boeing developing the 772LR. Sigh.

First let me start by saying LOL. ConcordeBoy is perhaps A.net's biggest 777 fan. He goes out of his way to avoid flying 340s. And he's been waiting like a good Southern boy for years for the 777NG to come, even though he will have to go find it because it sure ain't going down to MSY  Smile

So yeah, your statement was funny. Maybe after being on A.net for a while you will look back and realize how ironic your statement was.

I work for an airline

Do you?


Point?


I work for an airline outside the US.

Do you?


??????


I've worked for them for TWENTY FUCKING YEARS


Then it should have been easier for you to understand the relatively easy concepts they were trying to explain to you!
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
B747-437B
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:44 am

I've worked for them for TWENTY FUCKING YEARS

Gee, getting close to retirement age are we? Granpa needs a nap methinks...

You made a great case (far more persuasive than Freddie's usual "rah-rah go 777" stuff) but waving around your wrinkled dick as proof of your wisdom is hardly something you should be proud of.

"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:47 am

So do we now assume you are an airpus enthusiast.....?
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:52 am

nah dude, I'm into guys  Laugh out loud
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:53 am

even though he will have to go find it because it sure ain't going down to MSY

...just haaaad to take it there, didn't you  Yeah sure
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
whitehatter
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:54 am

just mailed you.....
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:00 am

Duly responded
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
ha763
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:32 am

BTW, there are no prototype 777NGs. The 2 777-300ERs used by Boeing for most of the testing and certification are production models and will go to a customer. I know one is destined for JAL. Even the first 777-300ER delivered to AF was used for some testing. The same will go for the 777-200LR.

I work for an airline
Do you?


Yes

I work for an airline outside the US.
Do you?


Yes, I work for a non-US airline who has the 777-300ER on order. I have also worked for US airlines as well.
 
Boeing Nut
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:10 pm

I stand by what I posted. Volume will probably mean the 777LR will never make a shilling for Boeing.

Especially if they have less than 20 orders for the type. Even then, it's questionable.
I'm not a real aeronautical engineer, I just play one on Airliners.net.
 
The777Man
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:44 pm

Some of the development cost for the -200LR will be covered by the -300ER so the cost for the -200LR shouldn't be as high as a completely new version. That said, there may very well be parallels with the 747SP but it's way to early to say if the -200LR will be profitable or not. Boeing will probably make the -200LR for another 20 years or more so we will have to see then if it's succesful or not.

The777Man
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Vorticity
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:56 pm

Only so many at Boeing know the development costs for the 777-200LR. Someone out there knows how many it will take to break even on the aircraft.

I think in the long run, it will serve Boeing well to introduce the 777-300ER and 777-200LR, better than sitting on their hands and doing nothing for sure. The combination of the 7E7 family and 777 family will provide a good line-up of widebody products for Boeing to offer into the future.

In 20 years we'll see if it broke even. Patience
Thermodynamics and english units don't mix...
 
NWDC10
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:59 pm

20 years? What airline service? Robert NWDC10
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: 772-L.R. --- Whats Happening?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:22 am

non-US airline who has the 777-300ER on order.

redundant, no?  Big grin
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!

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