quickmover
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AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:50 pm

FL is starting 2 daily DFW-LAX on 7/1. Here's the response from the 800 lb gorilla. Can't say this wasn't expected.



American Unveils New, Low-Fare Structure Between Dallas/Fort Worth and Los Angeles-Area Airports
Thursday June 10, 7:02 am ET
Walk-Up Coach Fares From Just $199*; Advance Purchase Fares as Low as $99*
Competitive Fares, 39 Daily Nonstops, AAdvantage(R) Miles, 'More Room in Coach' Make American Preferred Choice of Travelers Between DFW and Greater L.A. Area


FORT WORTH, Texas, June 10 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- American Airlines today unveils a new, low-fare structure between Dallas/Fort Worth and the Greater Los Angeles area.
Effective immediately, American's one-way, walk-up Coach fare on nonstop flights between Dallas/Fort Worth and five Los Angeles-area airports will be priced from just $199*, with other one-way fares as low as $99* with a 14-day advance purchase. And none of American's new fares has Saturday-night stay requirements. The five Los Angeles airports are Los Angeles International; John Wayne Airport in Orange County; Ontario; Long Beach; and Bob Hope Airport in Burbank.

"American's new, low fare structure means that a trip between DFW and the L.A. area will be extremely affordable, whether you're traveling for business or on a leisurely family vacation," said Dan Garton, executive vice president- Marketing.

Garton noted that customers should book flights early and be flexible with their choice of departure times -- especially during the busy summer travel season -- in order to get the lowest fares.

"Because these new fare levels are so attractive, and have no Saturday- night stay requirement, we expect them to be quite popular and purchased quickly," he said. "In addition, during the peak summer season, $99 seats for travel on Fridays through Sundays are extremely limited. So the earlier you book, and the more flexible you are on departure times, the better your chances of getting the lowest fares."

Travelers can use American's Web site, AA.com, to search for the best bargains at the desired departure times, or call American's reservation offices at (800) 433-7300 for assistance, Garton added.

Here is a sample of American's new, one-way fares between Dallas/Fort Worth and Los Angeles; Orange Country; Ontario; Long Beach and Burbank. Fares shown are non-refundable and seats are limited. For complete details, see the terms and conditions below or visit www.aa.com :

One-Way Fare Amount Starting From* Advance Purchase Requirement
$99 Coach 14 Days
$139 Coach 7 Days
$169 Coach 3 Days
$199 Coach None
$349 First Class None

Note: $99 fares have extremely limited availability on Fridays through
Sundays through Labor Day.


This summer, American will offer 15 daily nonstop flights each way between DFW and Los Angeles; nine nonstops each way to/from John Wayne Airport; six each way to/from Ontario; five each way to/from Long Beach; and four each way to/from Burbank. That's a total of 39 daily nonstop flights each way between DFW and the Los Angeles area -- far more than any other carrier.

As seasoned travelers know, however, American offers its customers much more than just low fares and frequent flights.

"Most of our DFW-Los Angeles area flights -- including all to and from Los Angeles, Orange County and Burbank -- will feature 'More Room Throughout Coach' seating that provides additional legroom between rows," said Garton. "And all the flights will provide the opportunity to earn and redeem AAdvantage frequent-flyer miles. In addition, each flight will offer a First- Class cabin, and of course, exceptional service from our employees both on the ground and in the air."

Travelers on board American's flights will also enjoy a number of other amenities that will make their trip more comfortable, relaxing and productive. For instance, along with "More Room" seating, most of American's aircraft feature large overhead storage bins that allow carry-on luggage to be stored "wheels first," creating more overall storage space and making it easier to stow and remove bags.

For those who like to "stay connected" during their trip, powerports are located at each seat in the First-Class cabin and are conveniently placed throughout the Coach cabin on most of American's aircraft, meaning passengers can work en route, operate their own CD or DVD players, or even recharge cell phones.

On the ground, American provides travelers an oasis for work or relaxation at Admirals Club® facilities in Dallas/Fort Worth, Los Angeles and Orange County.

"When you consider all that American offers like great fares, lots of flights, the industry's leading frequent-flyer program, spacious cabins and many other features, it's clear nobody beats American between Dallas/Fort Worth and the Los Angeles area," said Garton.

American Airlines is the world's largest carrier. American, American Eagle and the AmericanConnection regional carriers serve more than 250 cities in over 40 countries with nearly 4,200 daily flights. The combined network fleet numbers more than 1,000 aircraft. American's award-winning Web site, AA.com, provides users with easy access to check and book fares, plus personalized news, information and travel offers. American Airlines is a founding member of the oneworld Alliance.

* Terms and Conditions
Fares are for one-way travel, and are nonrefundable/nontransferable
(except First-Class fare, which is refundable). Seats are limited.
Higher Coach and First-Class fares are also available. Fares are valid
only on nonstop flights. Fares may not be available on all flights and
are subject to change without notice. Fares shown do not include a
$3.10 federal excise tax for each flight segment (one takeoff and one
landing). Fares also do not include the September 11th Security Fee of
$2.50 per U.S. enplanement, and up to $4.50 one-way in local airport
charges. Reservations for travel on the $169, $139, and $99 one-way
fares must be made at least three, seven or 14 days, respectively, prior
to departure and tickets must be purchased at least three, seven or
14 days, respectively, prior to departure or within 24 hours of making
reservations, whichever comes first. Reservations for the $199 one-way
walk-up fare may be made up to the day of departure; however, tickets
must be purchased within 24 hours after the reservation is made, up to
the time of departure, whichever comes first. (The $349 First-Class fare
does not have an advance-purchase requirement). You may change your
Coach ticket if you cancel your reservation before the original departure
time, pay a $50 USD service fee and meet the restrictions of the new
fare. (No change fee applies to the First-Class fare). Coach tickets
must be reissued and travel must commence within one year from original
ticket issuance. Cancellation/change fees, penalties and other
restrictions, including forfeiture, may apply. Advertised fares are
valid only on American Airlines and do not apply to flights on any
oneworld(TM) member airline or other codeshare flights. American
Airlines reserves the right to change the AAdvantage program rules,
regulations, travel awards and special offers at any time without notice,
and to end the AAdvantage program with six months notice. For complete
AAdvantage details, visit www.aa.com . Schedules are subject to change
without notice.

GET A GREAT LOW FARE. AND A LOT MORE AIRLINE. AMERICAN AIRLINES


 
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RayChuang
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:54 pm

Only one thing: AA didn't bother to say what kind of planes will be used on the DFW-LAX route. Will it be 737-800's? 757-200's that still have the MRTC configuration?
 
atrude777
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:57 pm

"When you consider all that American offers like great fares, lots of flights, the industry's leading frequent-flyer program, spacious cabins and many other features, it's clear nobody beats American between Dallas/Fort Worth and the Los Angeles area," said Garton.

Watch AirTran........ Big grin

Truthfully, I am all in support for AA, I hope they do well as FL. I wish they would be this willing to defend there turf at STL...but this is not the topic to bring up STL. Doesnt DFW-LAX even have a 777 too? wow i would LOVE to fly that for only 99 one way!! Good deal here!!! any DFW or LAX people u better take up that offer to collect ur miles here!!

Alex

Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
quickmover
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 10:58 pm

I think several aircraft types see this route, including heavys.
 
atrude777
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:12 pm

with a quick search..

DFW-LAX GETS

5- S80
2-763
2-738
1-777
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
jcs17
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:42 pm

There are more AA DFW-LAX flights than 10. I think the number is around 15-20. DFW-LAX is AA's most traveled route.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
richardw
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:45 pm

Which are AA's biggest hubs?
 
kanebear
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:46 pm

$700 r/t for a Flagship suite? SWEET! I feel sorry for anyone trying to upgrade on that route.  Smile
 
AAR90
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:46 pm

Only one thing: AA didn't bother to say what kind of planes will be used on the DFW-LAX route. Will it be 737-800's? 757-200's that still have the MRTC configuration?

Nope. What AA said was:
"Most of our DFW-Los Angeles area flights -- including all to and from Los Angeles, Orange County and Burbank -- will feature 'More Room Throughout Coach' seating that provides additional legroom between rows," said Garton.

That means no 757 or A300 on the DFW-LAX, SNA and BUR flights.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
toltommy
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:48 pm

Will AA be able to make money with this new fare structure? Or is it simply an attempt to drive FL back out of the market? Not that AA would actually try something like that....  Innocent
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:49 pm

It's amazing what a little competitive accountability can do for airfares. Naturally, American no doubt plans to offer those kind of fares from DFW to SJC, SFO, SEA, and SAN.  Yeah sure DOJ should watch closely to ensure that AA is only matching fares on the same capacity AirTran is offering.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
ont 737
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Thu Jun 10, 2004 11:53 pm

Well, this should not have surprised anyone. Again with the over zealous response to a LCC entrance into the market. Let me guess.... they are just trying to protect market share.  Insane I hope its worth it because yields are going to plummet. Here are AA's average oneway fares from DFW to So Cal before the fare sale.

LAX $281
SNA $232
ONT $225
BUR $212
LGB $207
 
elcapi1980
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:06 am

yes, they have 15 flights a day...sometimes more , or less ...
they currently have
9 S80
2-B767
3-B737
1-B777
I love you barranquilla!!!!!
 
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United_fan
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:09 am

Looks like 23 A^A flights between the 2.
Dallas, TX American 2439 02:09 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2445 04:14 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2453 04:36 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2459 08:39 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2465 09:08 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2473 10:06 PM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2479 12:18 AM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 785 01:13 AM Arrived
Dallas, TX American 2407 08:59 AM In Flight
Dallas, TX American 2401 09:52 AM In Flight
Dallas, TX American 409R 09:55 AM In Flight
Dallas, TX American 2409 10:17 AM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2421 11:17 AM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2427 01:28 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 595 02:27 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2445 03:21 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2453 04:27 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2459 05:28 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2461 06:17 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2465 07:21 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2473 08:25 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 2475 09:32 PM Scheduled
Dallas, TX American 1601 10:37 PM Scheduled
Champagne For My Real Friends,and Real Pain For My Sham Friends
 
atcboy73
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:14 am

Can someone please tell me why an airline should be more worried about market share as opposed to profits?

I have never heard of an airline using market share to pay debt or give employee bonuses.

I would love to use market share to pay my credit card debt. I have 100% market share over my two bedroom Waco apartment and I also have 100% market share over my Toyota Tacoma as I drive to work. Think MBNA would go for that?
 
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ATA L1011
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:17 am

I wonder if DL will follow suit on its flights to LAX,Ontario and John Wayne.
Treat others as you expect to be treated!
 
fsuwxman
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:33 am

United Fan:

Look closely at the flight numbers. You doubled some of them up. Looks like you got that off of Flytecomm.com. remember they show the flights for the last twenty- four hours. So you see some of the flights from yesterday and some that are scheduled for today...

Here is from AA.com...

2409 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 09:05 AM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 10:12 AM S80 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 2407 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 08:00 AM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 09:01 AM 763 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 2421 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 10:26 AM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 11:23 AM 777 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 2401 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 07:12 AM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 08:15 AM S80 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 2427 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 12:20 PM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 01:27 PM S80 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 595 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 01:15 PM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 02:15 PM 738 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 2445 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 02:08 PM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 03:14 PM S80 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 2453 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 03:19 PM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 04:20 PM S80 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 2459 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 04:12 PM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 05:15 PM 763 1235

AMERICAN AIRLINES 2461 DFW Dallas/ Fort Worth 06/10/2004 05:05 PM LAX Los Angeles 06/10/2004 06:01 PM 738 1235
ASOS... Another Shi#y Observation Station
 
AIR757200
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 7:44 am

For those really good with schedules...  Big grin

AA 2401 DFW 7:12am LAX 8:15am M83 MTWTFSS
AA 2407 DFW 8:00am LAX 9:01am 763 MTWTFSS
AA 2409 DFW 9:05am LAX 10:12am M83 MTWTFSS
AA 2421 DFW 10:26am LAX 11:23am 777 MTWTFSS
AA 2427 DFW 12:20pm LAX 1:27pm M80 MTWTF.S
AA 2427 DFW 12:20pm LAX 1:27pm M83 .....S.
AA 595 DFW 1:15pm LAX 2:15pm 738 MTWTFSS
AA 2445 DFW 2:08pm LAX 3:09pm 738 ......S
AA 2445 DFW 2:08pm LAX 3:14pm M83 MTWTFS.
AA 2453 DFW 3:19pm LAX 4:20pm M80 MTWTFSS
AA 2459 DFW 4:12pm LAX 5:15pm 763 MTWTFSS
AA 2461 DFW 5:05pm LAX 6:01pm 738 MTWTFS.
AA 2461 DFW 5:05pm LAX 6:06pm M80 ......S
AA 2465 DFW 6:07pm LAX 7:08pm M80 .....S.
AA 2465 DFW 6:07pm LAX 7:08pm M83 MTWTF.S
AA 2473 DFW 7:14pm LAX 8:23pm M80 MTWTF.S
AA 2475 DFW 8:10pm LAX 9:19pm M80 MTWTF.S
AA 2475 DFW 8:10pm LAX 9:19pm M80 .....S.
AA 1601 DFW 9:15pm LAX 10:20pm M80 MTWTF.S
AA 1601 DFW 9:15pm LAX 10:20pm M83 .....S.
AA 785 DFW 10:01pm LAX 11:01pm 738 MTWTF.S

.....S. = Saturday, ......S = Sunday
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 8:07 am

Atcboy--LOL! I'm going to remember this one.

Here's the difference between you and network airlines. You don't have high-priced lobbyists to bribe the government ("campaign contributions") to co-sign your mortgage or car loan, so that you can mismanage your life, go bankrupt, and still be propped up in a mismanaged lifestyle.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
B4REAL
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 9:29 am

ATA L1011

I wonder if DL will follow suit on its flights to LAX,Ontario and John Wayne.


Even though DL is my carrier of choice, they are struggling to hold their hub status @ DFW, but the offering to ONT and SNA is a little weak, [3x and 2x daily on CRJ-700 respectively]. DFW-LAX is acceptable with 2x daily 738, 1x MD-90, 1x MD-88. Load factors are actually good on the DFW-LAX and DFW-SFO routes.

I would not be surprised if soon, AirTran has more seats to LAX than DL from DFW! American will hold their own, sustain the competion and charge forward.

FL's new routes DFW-SoCal will be @ DL's expense IMHO. B4REAL
B4REAL, spelled like it sounds
 
workbench
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:43 am

This is clearly predatory pricing. If I were FL, I would instantly file a major lawsuite against AA barring them from matching or undercutting FL's fares. AA did this with Vanguard, National, WestPac, Braniff, and that airline with DC9's that flew out of DAL. AA has a history of this type of thing.
 
atcboy73
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:50 am

Is United still on this route, like they used to be 3 times daily?
 
highliner2
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:58 am

"AA has a history of this sort of thing"

The entire industry has a history of this sort of thing. It's called the post-deregulation airline industry. It's a dirty game that's for sure, Airtran either's gonna have to learn to play, or take a hike. They did it against Delta in Delta's hometown so it's not beyond possibility they can repeat the performance in Dallas.
Go Cubs!
 
access-air
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:18 am

I believe its called Predatory Pricing and its supposed to be illegal....
Oh, and the airline eliminated that flew with ex-CO DC9-30s configured for 56 passengers was Legend Airlines....
Who knows maybe there will be enough of a following with AirTran that they might be able to steal a chucnk of passengers away from the AAVulture. I mean look at What AirTran is doing to Delta in Atlanta....

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
Bobs89irocz
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:26 am

Richardw- AA's biggest hubs-

#1 DFW.....its a fortress
#2 ORD

Others (dont know the order) MIA, SJC, LAX, JFK, STL.

Heavy Maintenance bases-

TUL- Tulsa, OK (do everything BUT the 767/777)
AFW- Alliance Fort Worth, Forth Worth, Tx. (do the 767/777)
 
ckfred
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 12:32 pm

Atcboy73

The reason that an airline wants market share is so that it can determine fares. If AA is the dominant carrier on a route, then it can set fares. And if a competitor tries to raise fares, AA can chose to match or not. If AA doesn't raise fares, then the competitor will probably rescind the fare increase.

If AA, or any carrier loses dominance of a route, then it has to follow what the dominant carrier does with its pricing.

Access-Air

Whether you like it or not, a federal appellate court has ruled that AA did not engage in predatory pricing against Vanguard out of DFW. The court reason that AA's fares matched Vanguard's. Further, AA's fares did not drop below its unit cost. And, the increase in capacity was due to the anticipated increase in flyers expected from the lower fares.

The question I have is what is AirTran charging for DFW-LAX? And does AA's new structure mean any changes in AirTran's pricing.

Frankly, I've been wondering if AA was going to follow HP and AS in introducing a simplified fare scheme. This looks like the testing to see if such a scheme can, in fact, generate more revenue. It's worked for HP, and AS believes that within a year, revenues and profits will increase.
 
SESGDL
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 1:02 pm

AA wants to protect its market share, but would rather compete with another major than a low-fare carrier. AA & DL @ DFW, or AA & UA @ ORD can compete vigorously over market share, but the fares are relatively high in comparison to DL & FL @ ATL. DL had fares over $1,000 R/T on ATL-LAX/ONT/SNA before FL, now fares don't go to far above $299 R/T. The market is being stimulated by cheap fares and the carriers are carrying more passengers, but yield is what the carriers are worried about. The carriers don't care about competing, they just want to make money competing, and AA can't make money with FL's fares, and that's the problem. They're trying to put FL off the route.

Jeremy
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 2:53 pm

Whether you like it or not, a federal appellate court has ruled that AA did not engage in predatory pricing against Vanguard out of DFW. The court reason that AA's fares matched Vanguard's. Further, AA's fares did not drop below its unit cost. And, the increase in capacity was due to the anticipated increase in flyers expected from the lower fares.

Actually, the USA vs. AMR ruling didn't say any of those things. The judge wrote that current antitrust law made capacity dumping nearly impossible to measure, and that he couldn't be certain of AA's intent. Also, AA's fares most certainly weren't profitable. They matched a low-fare competitor, which the court didn't "reason," they looked at the numbers the carriers provided. Then AA hiked fares back up to profitable, gouging levels after Vanguard was driven out and chopped capacity.

DOJ did a terrible job making its case, and deserved to lose. Congress also needs to tighten up legal guidelines regarding capacity dumping and predatory pricing to reflect the current industry realities, and place the bar at a reasonable level.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
tekelberry
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 3:48 pm

757-200's that still have the MRTC configuration?

All of AA's 757s have been converted from MRTC back to normal room. So, no, they will not be used on DFW-LAX.

[Edited 2004-06-11 08:48:48]
 
thunder9
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 4:54 pm

>> Congress also needs to tighten up legal guidelines regarding
>> capacity dumping and predatory pricing to reflect the current
>> industry realities, and place the bar at a reasonable level.

Jim --

If I read your post correctly, it seems as though you want the Federal Gov't to have a hand in all manner of competition in the airline industry. That is called regulation, and that ended in 1978, as I'm sure you're aware. Sorry, but if you want the Gov't to monitor every step that the airlines take, then you'll have to live with the Gov't setting prices, as they used to do back in the days when the Civil Aeronautics Board (CAB) set the prices. Yes, that's back when it cost $400 (or more) r/t coast-to-coast. You need to choose which way you want it...

I've a question for most of the folks who have replied that AA is "predatory" pricing, etc, etc...

Why *shouldn't* one carrier be allowed to match another carriers fares? If FL wants to charge $99.00 o/w from DFW to LAX, then why shouldn't DL & AA be allowed to charge that same fare? We all know that fare is likely below the cost to haul some pax butt for 3.3 hours, but why should the Gov't tell ANY business how much they can charge for their product? Besides, no airline sells all of the seats for that deeply discounted price, so I don't think that you can say that the airline involved is intending to lose money on a certain route, at least not for any length of time. And I'm sure that the airlines are much better at figuring average yields for a flight than any of us here, so they know how many $169 or $199 seats they need to sell to offset the $99 cheapos...

I guess you could say that deeply discounted airline tickets are a form of promotion, like when your local cable company offers to give you the first 3 months of cable modem internet service for only $19.95/month.

-J




"Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee." - William Kershner
 
LH423
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 5:05 pm

AA's top five cities are:
1. DFW
2. ORD
3. MIA
4. STL
5. SJU

Bold denotes a hub. LAX is the largest focus city, followed closely by Boston and JFK. However, I'm not sure if SJU is bigger than STL, or vice versa.

LH423
« On ne voit bien qu'avec le cœur. L'essentiel est invisible pour les yeux » Antoine de Saint-Exupéry
 
atrude777
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:13 pm

LH423- I think STL is bigger then SJU, but we have 216(i think) flights with AA/AC. But I dont know SJU's schedule.

I was also thinking the same thing thunder9- if Southwest, FL, and F9 can lower fares, why cant the legacy carriers do too? Why is it illegal for them to do it, and not the LCC, AA has every right to choose the fare they want, as much as FL can too. You made a good point!

Alex
Good things come to those who wait, better things come to those who go AFTER it!
 
luv2fly
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:19 pm

Well this is a good example of wasted money and resources. Yes I agree you should protect your market. On the other hand we are talking about AirTran adding 2 flights to the market. So AA's knee jerk reaction is to match the fare on all there flights, common sense would tell you to match the fare only on the flights that operate at the same time frame. Yes AA does offer more as an airline, as far as the route map, more room through coach, (well for the most part) airline clubs, FF program and such. On the other hand on board and service wise, the lines between majors and LCC's are in my opinion very similar.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
AIR757200
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 10:24 pm

This is clearly predatory pricing.

If you say so. Do you think AA is being predatory because it is matching the fares of that AirTran is introducing? Kinda reminds me of gas prices... the BP station across the street lowers the price to $1.95, so the Sunoco lowers it to $1.94. Is Sunoco being predatory? Business is business, if AA feels as though AirTran will lure away passengers; why shouldn't AA react? Becuase they (AA) are a "legacy" carrier and are not allowed to play the same "low fare" game?

It seems to me people are O.K. with L.C.C.'s slashing fare prices, why can't the legacy carriers to the same.. it's a bad arguement.

The entire industry has a history of this sort of thing. It's called the post-deregulation airline industry.

It's also called competition. All businesses are designed to be competitive or else what's the point of being in business?

Why *shouldn't* one carrier be allowed to match another carriers fares?

Thunder9,

I agree with you completely!
 
milemaster
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Fri Jun 11, 2004 11:13 pm

Workbench said:
This is clearly predatory pricing. If I were FL, I would instantly file a major lawsuite against AA barring them from matching or undercutting FL's fares. AA did this with Vanguard, National, WestPac, Braniff, and that airline with DC9's that flew out of DAL. AA has a history of this type of thing.

Sign me up for one of those "Lawsuites".. they sound nice.
 Insane

I keep forgetting it's June and all the kiddo's are home now for summer vacation.

There's nothing illegal about what AA is doing here. When an airline matches fares on a competing route with another airline.. that's competition. The better product wins.

Workbench, perhaps if you spent some more time "workbenching" this theory of yours you may have a more coherent argument.

Back to your lab for some more in-depth analysis:


[Edited 2004-06-11 16:32:31]
 
juanchie
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:21 am

What other airlines fly DFW-LAX?
God, forgive me for who I am, and help me be the man I want to be.
 
workbench
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:50 am

I never said it was illegal, but it should be. AA a huge carrier with lots of muscle is trying to crush the underdog. Major carriers like AA should be banned by law from matching fares of LCC's. It is not fair to the smaller carriers. AA can afford to loose money on this route forever, FL cannot. After AA forces FL out of the marcket AA will raise fares and consumers will be screwed.
 
aa777flyer
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:55 am

Milemaster-

I will not even take the time to reply to workbench. But thanks for the laugh! It has been a long time since I have laughed so hard!
The TSA was created to make the post office look efficient!
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:15 am

Jim --If I read your post correctly, it seems as though you want the Federal Gov't to have a hand in all manner of competition in the airline industry. That is called regulation, and that ended in 1978, as I'm sure you're aware. Sorry, but if you want the Gov't to monitor every step that the airlines take, then you'll have to live with the Gov't setting prices

Well, it's about time you laissez-faire and network-carrier partisans showed up. These sorts of discussions are no fun without you.

Spare us the "our only options are laissez-faire or full regulation" false choices. A free market means that dominant players are not allowed to either a) collude, or b) destroy competition, in order to keep prices artificially high and gouge people. That's part of America's free-market way, defined properly by the Sherman Antitrust Act and other reforms of the Teddy Roosevelt era, when large-scale industrialization was turned into a form of theft.

Protecting the level playing field and direct gov't selection of markets and costs are two different things. Strong predatory pricing and capcity-dumping guidelines for DOJ would do nothing more than protect the level playing field. It's up to airlines to choose the routes they fly, based upon profitability and market need. And since y'all didn't notice, I for one didn't complain about price matching on similar capacity, which is perfectly fair competition.

It's hilarious how some people think that because one doesn't accept their narrow ideology, that one must be childish. It's actually the other way around. The world is a little more complicated than "full gov't regulation or laissez faire." It's also hilarious how some people think they can shut down discussion by saying "I'm an adult, you're a child, ooh, I put you down good! Hee hee!" Yeah, I for one am intimidated by that sort of tripe.  Insane

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
Alitalia744
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:21 am

Well I for one hope the 800lb gorilla squashes the lil'monkey....
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
AIR757200
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:01 am


Major carriers like AA should be banned by law from matching fares of LCC's. It is not fair to the smaller carriers.

O.K., I'm going step away from the antitrust stuff because we can talk about that all day... however, I want to examine this statement above...

...You got to be kidding me. Major carriers should be banned by matching fares? So, for example a major carrier, like ATA, should be banned from matching fares of that of... let's say, JetBlue (because JetBlue is a smaller carrier)?

It's not fair? So, what is "competition" then if you don't compete against each other? You are failing to realize this is a business just like any other business.

Is it fair that Wal-Mart is supposedly running out small chain stores?
 
DCA-ROCguy
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:14 am

Matching fares on similar capacity, as I noted above, is perfectly fair competition and part of a free market. It's when a higher-cost incumbent *undercuts* fares or dumps capacity--that is, schedules lots of additional capacity beyond the newcomers at matched or undercut fares--that there's an antitrust problem.

I don't like it any more than you do, Workbench, when an incumbent tries to drive a lower-cost competitor from a market. But those are the risks of a free market. All the government can and should do is protect a level playing field.

Jim
Need a new airline paint scheme? Better call Saul! (Bass that is)
 
ssides
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:44 am

Great photo, Milemaster! Can I add you to my campaign for a minimum age requirement on A.net?
"Lose" is not spelled with two o's!!!!
 
FL1TPA
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:04 am

To answer a previous question in the posts:

FL is charging $99 each way for 14 day advance purchases. With taxes and all PFCs included, the one-way charge is $109.10. Double it for the round trip - $218.20.

My question is; won't AA lose more money from cutting these fares so low than FL will? (FL makes money on these routes because thier cost structure is significantly less inflated than AA.)

Tim.

<>
"Looks like I picked the wrong week to stop sniffin' glue."
 
SESGDL
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:39 am

"Won't AA lose more money from cutting these fares so low than FL will?"

Definitely, but their hope is that FL will eventually end the route because the competition is too tough. AA's loads will probably be very high, but they won't be making money. AA's cost structure is no where near as low as FL's.

Jeremy
 
bonanzaair
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:46 am

''Well I for one hope the 800lb gorilla squashes the lil'monkey.... "

I believe that FL expected this dogfight and is ready for it. FL management is opportunistic, but not stupid. Look at the build up at PIT when UAL and USAir were doing the merger dance. Once the dance ended and it was clear the PIT would survive as a hub (a couple of years back) and USair matched the PIT-PHL/LGA $39 fare, FL retreated. Other opportunities to explore.

When YX looked on it's last leg, FL moved into MKE. Then NWA did too. Since YX mortgaged the house and continues to fly and NWA is serious about MKE, FL moved on. Other opportunities.

Other opportunities - CAK has grown...just this week with new service to BOS,
DAL-LAS/BWI/MCO. More opportunities will come...the 737's are arriving.

Bonanza
 
sllevin
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sat Jun 12, 2004 12:20 pm

My short version:

Jetblue has demonstrated that airlines are not a monopoly. They moved into a serious market, and have virtually taken over, are profitable, and are growing.

And they did this, as they should, by going into business with a good plan and enough backing to properly enter a market.

Commercial aviation is a big market. It takes a lot to enter the market. But where it is done properly, a good plan can and will suceed. There's no need to try and protect new entrants. In fact, we SHOULDN'T be encouraging new entrants -- it leads to chaos.

Steve
 
thunder9
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:18 am

FL1TPA --

At $215-$220 r/t between DFW-Los Angeles area, I'm sure that even AA will at least cover their costs. And I'm sure they won't be dump enough to sell more seats at the price than they can afford. In the late 90's, airlines could afford to keep flying routes that weren't making $$, but that's not an option to any carrier these days.

As far as the fare goes, if an airline is getting about $100 each way for these routes, that's good when you consider that I've seen fares for Los Angeles area to the east coast for $275 or even lower, and usually that routing will have the passengers on four airplanes, so that usually works out to the airlines getting may $50-$60 per leg of that coast-to-coast trip. I imagine that AA/FL/DL are all liking the idea of nearly $100 per pax on the Dallas-Los Angeles market, don't you?  Smile

-J

"Keep thy airspeed up, less the earth come from below and smite thee." - William Kershner
 
LMP737
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RE: AA Gets Tough And Responds To FL's New DFW-LAX

Wed Jun 16, 2004 12:06 am

"I never said it was illegal, but it should be. AA a huge carrier with lots of muscle is trying to crush the underdog. Major carriers like AA should be banned by law from matching fares of LCC's. It is not fair to the smaller carriers. AA can afford to loose money on this route forever, FL cannot. After AA forces FL out of the marcket AA will raise fares and consumers will be screwed."

More witt and wisdom from Workbench, a.nets one trick pony. Saying that the airlines should "banned" from competing with the LCC's is the most asinine thing I have ever heard. This way over the top, even for him.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.