bullpitt
Posts: 757
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Air Madrid

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:23 am

Hi all

Has anybody any information about how Air Madrid is doing? I know they have just started but I'm curious about how their flights are doing load wise and are they flying to schedule.

Un Saludo a todos
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
Horus
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:00 am

There were reports that they will serve some resorts/cities in Egypt. Is there any more info on that?
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
soamsky
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:12 am

Hi Bullpit

I've read they have had lots of problems in Colombia. It seems Avianca wants Air Madrid out since they're threatening one of Avianca's most lucrative routes.

Air Madrid have already made clear that if Colombian aeronautical authority have not granted all the required permanent permits to fly the CTG-BOG route by the end of this month, they would quit flying there and take the business somewhere else.

Regards
Soar the blue of the South American Sky
 
JUANR
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:32 am

Hi!

Yes SoAmSky that is the truth, the problem is that the bilateral agreement between Colombia and Spain says that there will be 14X week non-stop flights between the countries (currently operated by Avianca 7x and Iberia 7x) and there is a chance of 3 more weekly flights if they operate through Cartagena and with tourism porpoises.

So, when Air Madrid announced the flights to Colombia they were requested to stop in CTG and they agreed, but the intention was to create a tourism market for CTG so a lot of money would remain in Colombia and Iberia and Avianca would not be affected by the new company.

Now, Air Madrid started selling tickets only in Spain at a very low prices and of course Avianca was very terrified with the idea of losing a lot of their market, that went worse when it was announced that the flight route was MAD-BOG-CTG-MAD; Civil Authority in Colombia did not authorized Air Madrid selling tickets in Colombia (their fares are lower than required for the route) So Avianca said: they are looking for the Ethnic market (Colombians living in Spain) and not for Spanish Tourists and requested to deny they authorization.

So everybody was eyed wide open when their first flight arrived and the fact is that Avianca was right there were 285 passengers on that flight, 210 got off in BOG and only 75 in Cartagena, so immediately the Aeronautica Civil ordered that the flight had to stop in CTG before BOG and Air Madrid CEO jumped out of his seat saying that they are being prosecuted by Colombian authorities and he gave Colombian Authorities 15 days to solve their problems and authorize operation or they'll stop flying to the country. Of course Aeronautica Civil will decide according to our laws what to do with Air Madrid.

Given those facts, I think is better for them to leave.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
soamsky
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:19 am

Hi Juan

" Given those facts, I think is better for them to leave"

Do you think it's better for Air Madrid to leave because they have been given many problems or because you think Air Madrid is not playing a fair game?

I read Air Madrid have shown the Civil Authority how they've come up with their fares. They stated also that since the beginning they made clear they wanted and needed to fly to BOG since Cartagena doesn't have enough market to support a transcontinental flight. However, even with fewer pax to CTG, if the tourist industry does well in this historic city, word of mouth would bring more tourist there.

Regards
Soar the blue of the South American Sky
 
JUANR
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:53 am

Hi SoAmSky

Yes, I think they are not playing a fair game, unfortunately Avianca has notbeen able to play the game the way they should, they are like crying babies right now; I would love to see a commercial ad saying something like "A ten hours flight to Madrid with no free food service, no way!, you better fly with AV" or "Better keep flying with tradition and without paying 17.00 Euro for your food" things like that.

Of course they needed to fly to BOG beacuse the only foreign city that can handle a flight to CTG would be MIA and of course it is really hard to get a ticket on AV or IB to go to MAD from BOG; the thing is that right now you can't buy a ticket on Air Madrid if you live in Colombia; that means that the airline is making profit of a market that is underserved, using Colombians (there are more than 500.000 living in Spain as a target) as a target, competing with almost "dumping" prices with AV, every euro remains in Spain, and when the Colombian Aeronautica Civil make some requests they reply with an ultimatum; so... certainly they are not playing fare and they should leave.

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
soamsky
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 12, 2004 1:44 pm

Hi Juan, think about it!

Avianca is going to be purchased by either synergy (Brazil) or Copa/Continental (Panama/USA), so euros wouldn't remain in Colombia either. Why do Colombians in Spain have to pay the high fares Avianca and Iberia usually charge?

Another question, wasn't Colombia-Spain one of the routes proto airline Fenix was seeking to start operations? What does this incident could mean to it?

Regards
Soar the blue of the South American Sky
 
Summa767
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:46 pm

SoAmSky,
Fenix did ask for MAD as a destination, but this was not granted to them by Aeronautica. The reasons being the same restrictions contained in the bilateral agreement that now are troubling Air Madrid. Fenix have been granted authorization to fly to London, Paris, Frankfurt and Rome as European destinations.

The public audience for the approval or otherwise of Air Madrid is expected to be held on 22nd June. We will know then what will happen.
My guess is that some compromise will be reached.

What is clear is that Air Madrid did not do their homework properly or sorted out the legal issues in time. Colombia is a very legalistic country and the airline seems to have come in with a neo-colonial attitude.

Having said that, I do hope that they stay. It can only be in the interest of tourism (even if it's not immediate!) and a little healthy competition would not go amiss. BOG is a cash cow for Iberia at the moment. Not so much for Avianca. As Air Madrid's CEO said.. He can fly 300 pax on his A330s (which he called the jewel of aviation) on $31000 of fuel. Avianca carries 165 pax (175 seats but 10 fully reclining ones must be left available for the crew) on a 762 that according to him spends $60000 in fuel on the same route.

Do these figures make sense?

Kindest regards
 
soamsky
Posts: 293
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RE: Air Madrid

Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:24 am

Hi Summa767

It's a pity that in such underserved segment, bilateral agreements limit competition. I do think that if Fenix begins operations, it would do really well offering a superb and competitive product on that route.

Regards
Soar the blue of the South American Sky
 
Horus
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RE: Air Madrid

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:57 am

So nobody knows any info on flights to Egypt (Sharm El Sheikh, Luxor, etc)?
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
komododx
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RE: Air Madrid

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:15 am

Since some of you mentioned Fenix, what's the status of that operation?

KdX in TLH
I'm homeless and unemployed
 
RCS763AV
Posts: 3645
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RE: Air Madrid

Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:27 am

Fenix will start service in Oct/Nov this year with 757s, later they will acquire 767s for Europe routes.
 
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swissbrazil
Posts: 157
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:37 pm

Hello guys,

I just bought on their homepage 2 tickets MAD-GIG on Air Madrid for the coming 29.June! Does anyone knows if I can reserve the seats in advance, and if the inflight service (food and drinks) have all to be paid for? If so, am I allowed to bring my own food with me?

Hope to have nice flight  Wink/being sarcastic

Regards,
Fred
 
Summa767
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:29 pm

About the food, you have to pay for it! The menu is actually on Air Madrid's website. €5 for a starter, €10 for a main course and €2 for a drink. It looks quite appetizing actually.
There is no information on bringing your own food. But I don't imagine that anybody will bat an eyelid if you take a sandwich onboard.
 
debonair
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:22 pm


@SwissBrazil

Can I ask you, how much did you paied??? I am looking forward to your trip-report  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

@Summa767
Do you have a direct link to the meals??
 
debonair
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RE: Air Madrid

Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:05 pm


One more question: Do you have also to pay the meals in the Biz Class???
 
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swissbrazil
Posts: 157
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RE: Air Madrid

Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:13 am

Summa767: Thks! I did try it on their website, but just got empty pages when it came down to food info.. hmm, so I'm taking a couple of sandwiches with me  Wink/being sarcastic

Debonair: I paid for a return MAD-GIG-MAD 417EUR all tax incl, basic ticket was 329EUR+all tax comes to 417EUR... in July the prices go up for good, that's why I booked for the 29th now  Wink/being sarcastic

Will make a trip report, and place some pic's here  Wink/being sarcastic

Rgds,
Fred
 
767-332ER
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RE: Air Madrid

Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:24 pm

Air Madrid CEO jumped out of his seat saying that they are being prosecuted by Colombian authorities and he gave Colombian Authorities 15 days to solve their problems and authorize operation or they'll stop flying to the country
Who does he think he is, God? So stop flying to Colombia, big deal. OBEY THE RULES!!!
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
JUANR
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RE: Air Madrid

Mon Jun 21, 2004 12:21 am

According with an Interview on W Radio Bogotá last friday Air Madrid has not yet rights to fly scheduled flights to Colombia, they are authorized to fly charter flights on June and July; the status of those charter flights was MAD-CTG-BOG-CTG-MAD on tuesdays and MAD-CTG-MAD on fridays, well, on that interview Air Madrid's CEO announced they will stop flying the Friday frecuency because it is not profitable (what they are really looking at is BOG market), and Director of Aeronautica Civil Colombiana announced that on June 23 will be held the public hearing to discuss the convinience of Air Madrid operation; perhaps the ACC will anounce that 70%-80% of Air Madrid passengers has to have CTG as final destination in Colombia (according with the bilateral agreement)

Who does he think he is, God?
No, I do not think he thinks is god, he is an Spainsh investor in Latin America so perhaps he thinks he is in "La Reconquista", Some Spanish investors still look at Latin American countries as their colonies

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
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swissbrazil
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RE: Air Madrid

Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:32 am

I whish them all the best actually, it's very good to finally see some competition down in South America.. I'm looking forward to my flight to GIG next week with them  Wink/being sarcastic
 
rojo
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RE: Air Madrid

Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:50 am

No, I do not think he thinks is god, he is an Spainsh investor in Latin America so perhaps he thinks he is in "La Reconquista", Some Spanish investors still look at Latin American countries as their colonies

Can you explain why you say that Spanish investors look at Latin American countries as their colonies?? I don't see anything wrong in trying to do business in a place were there is a clear lack of them... it is obvious that there is a need for additional flights MAD-BOG-MAD and people are tired of paying so much money to fly IB or AV. I can bet that 80% of the passengers on Air Madrid flights are Colombians traveling home or Spain and not Spanish traveling to Colombia or back home. Then, blame your country and your government for not realizing that their nationals need more flights to MAD. Air Madrid is just trying to do business as any carrier would. We are in the 21st century and sooner or later countries will have to negotiate open skies agreements between them. Protecting national airlines will only make them more vulnerable to future competition. You can not protect an airline forever!!
 
miaskies
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RE: Air Madrid

Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:54 am

Any word on Air Madrid serving any U.S. Destinations? MIA? JFK?
Glad to see another Spanish Carrier take to the Skies...and cross the pond.
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
Summa767
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RE: Air Madrid

Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:19 am

Can you explain why you say that Spanish investors look at Latin American countries as their colonies??

Air Madrid's lower cost approach to flights across the Atlantic is very welcome. However, they seem to have taken for granted that there are regulations and processes that must be followed.

In the case of Colombia, at least, Air Madrid left it very late to get this process started, and now seem to be using "bully" tactics to get what they want. There lies the neo-colonial attitude.

Colombia's civil aviation authority are only adhering to the bilateral agreement and following normal procedures that include a public audience. All being well, tomorrow we will have a positive decision.

And as for regulation, I agree that national airlines cannot be overprotected. But at the same time in countries where airlines are essentially a public service, the long term interest of passengers must be looked after.
 
rojo
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RE: Air Madrid

Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:44 am

In the case of Colombia, at least, Air Madrid left it very late to get this process started, and now seem to be using "bully" tactics to get what they want. There lies the neo-colonial attitude.

Air Madrid just wants to be profitable and they are trying to get into a good business by flying to Bogota (feasible flight) but pleasing the Colombian government (to get their schedule operations approved) and extending the flight to Cartagena (unfeasible flight). They are just claiming that the market is the one deciding on the mix of people that each flight will have. It is obvious that if the Colombian government denies 3rd freedom rights to Air Madrid on BOG-MAD and schedule flights are not approved, they will have to pull from Colombia. Nobody will keep a Cartagena flight from Europe... Additionally, "Bully" Tactics is not a neo-colonial attitude, it is how business is done in Latin America. I haven't been to Colombia, but I have been to many other countries in Latin America and "Bully" Tactics is our way of living and our way of doing business... so please don't say that they have a neo-colonial attitude when our countries are the ones who make them act like that by not setting the terms in first place. The Colombian government should have denied Air Madrid flights from the very beginning by not authorizing the charter flights with a stop in BOG... but they were also thinking with this "Bully" tactic perspective: lets authorize them charters and see if we can get what we want (bring tourism to Colombia) knowing that it is impossible to fill an airplane to Europe - Cartagena. And, in the meantime, we will authorize them a stop in BOG, but if they start selling too many tickets to BOG, we stop the charters and do not authorize schedule flights...


And as for regulation, I agree that national airlines cannot be overprotected. But at the same time in countries where airlines are essentially a public service, the long term interest of passengers must be looked after.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought that airlines are a public service in almost every country where people can buy a ticket on any airline as long as they have money... although in some countries (specially in Latin America) they are a very expensive public service. And I don't see how overprotection can help in the long term interest of passengers. It has been proved that overprotection only generates inefficient services with very high prices. Additionally, most passengers are price sensitive, because we have poverty in our contries, so I don't see how overprotecting the market and generating high prices is in the long term interest of passegers. It is in the long term interest of premium passengers but not of all passengers...
 
Summa767
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RE: Air Madrid

Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:21 am

Rojo:
If Air Madrid had done its homework, it would have realised that approval of a route requires more than a week. Other airlines seem to manage to apply in time.

If they looked properly at the bilateral agreement they would have seen that any further access to BOG requires a CTG, ADZ or SMR stop. Similarly Colombian carriers would have to stop in the Canaries for more access to MAD. It's not a one sided thing! If the bilateral agreement needs changing, then they can lobby their government (After all, Colombia does have open skies agreements with many countries). What they cannot do is go about trying to re-write it in their own way.


I do trust that Air Madrid will be given approval tomorrow (with a stop as required by the bilateral). And furthermore, that they will be able to sell seats for flights originating in Colombia.

About regulation: Colombia's civil aviation authority has a clear policy of allowing as much competition so long as it can be supported. It wants to keep an equilibrium. It allows a number of flights and airlines between pairs of cities according to how many pax are carried. What it does not want to see is competing that would end up with airlines going bust, and therefore less choice in the long term for the consumer.

I don't necessarily agree. I know that the market should decide, but aviation is a tricky business.
 
planeguy
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RE: Air Madrid

Tue Jun 22, 2004 3:27 pm

Summa767,

Do you know with which countries Colombia has open skies agreements? I'm just curious
 
Summa767
Posts: 1751
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RE: Air Madrid

Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:48 pm

Colombia has open skies agreements with Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Peru, Chile and Mexico. The first two include limitless 5th freedom rights.

With The US there is an agreement that has been phased in since 2001 and which will be revised later this year. It should result in an open skies deal. As it is, there are unused frequencies by both countries.

For more detail see (in Spanish)http://www.aerocivil.gov.co/Normatividad/Convenios/Convenios%20Aereos%20Comerciales.htm


By the way, in the same website, I see that in the day's agenda for tomorrow's public audience that Air Madrid is only applying for one weekly frequency all the way to BOG. The other will be to CTG only. . I believe that this is all they were granted on the Spanish side. These would be scheduled services up to 4th freedom.
 
JUANR
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RE: Air Madrid

Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:33 pm

Well, according to Colombian National Newspaper "El Tiempo" finally the Colombian Aeronautica Civil has decided that Air Madrid has the right to operate 2 scheduled frecuencies to Colombia:

Tuesday: MAD-CTG-BOG-CTG-MAD
Friday: MAD-CTG-MAD

Air MAdrid's representative in Colombia said that those frecuencies are too expensive for the airline but they respect the authority's decision, but given that there is going to be a meeting between Spain and Colombia on July 13-14 to discuss the bilateral agreement they will request that the flights do not have to stop in CTG on their way back to MAD on tuesdays, the right to fly to BOG on fridays and a third frecuency on Wednesday or thursday.

Also Aeronautica Civil informed that Air Comet has shown interest on flying to Colombia to BOG with a stop over in one of the cities mentioned in the bilateral agreement.

I thinks it is good news, it means that Air Madrid will not stop flying here and that Colombian Goverment was strong enough to keep its word and did not let them imposed their requirements. Now lets see how the selling tickets process for people originating in BOG and CTG goes on (remember that here fares do not depend 100% on the market, they are regulated by the state)

Greetings from BOG

Juan
SKBO
Bogotá: 2600 Metros Más Cerca De Las Estrellas; Vamos por los XVII Juegos Nacionales!!!!!!!!!
 
MAH4546
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RE: Air Madrid

Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:07 pm

Any word on Air Madrid serving any U.S. Destinations? MIA? JFK?
Glad to see another Spanish Carrier take to the Skies...and cross the pond.


By the time they start thinking of US expansion, they won't be around much longer. Besides, as welcomed they would be at MIA, Iberia and American would run them out as quick as they started. No way they are going to allow a lower-cost trans-Atlantic carrier errode thier MIA-MAD yields, which are consistently profitable.
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