boeingbus
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How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:25 am

Hi Folks... It seems like Boeing is off to spectacular start with the 7E7 and once the bird flies and IF Boeing meets all the performance targets is going to be a table turner... And advantage will be Boeing, by far...

What will Airbus introduce or offer to compete with 7E7, which according to Boeing and many others that this aircraft (as of today) is going to incorporate a lot new technology such as composite fuselage, bleedless engines, for the most part an "electric plane", etc... It seems like the 7E7 is much more than just a efficient bleedless engine, so Airbus statements that they are simply going to hang those engines on A330 seems to me just inadequate.

Boeing has many years experience which Airbus does not and a lot is from Defense contracts. Does Airbus have the "know how" to come up with an aircraft to compete with Boeing within 10 years? Otherwise, it seems like Airbus will lose a substantial number of their A300/10, 332, and a large 767 market. Unless the A380 becomes a cash cow, how are they going to afford this?

My main points are: your take on this and if you agree or not that Airbus will offer a competing model in an acceptable time frame?

Please avoid comparing Boeing strategies to Airbus... I am just currius to know what options Airbus has - now that Boeing seens to have succeeded in their business plan in this huge segment.... and to me this is much more important than the A380.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
goboeing
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:32 am

I don't think you or I are dumb and missed something. They just don't have anything to go up against the 7E7 right now.

Nick
 
whitehatter
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:36 am

Airbus has the experience of several European defence contractors to draw upon. BAe and Aerospatiale are just two of them.

Expect Airbus to counter the 7E7 with a proposal of their own, just like two sides in a chess game.

If aviation was just a one-sided affair, things would quickly stagnate. The dominant producer would dictate pricing and be sluggish to improve. Two equally balanced competitors is like watching two wrestlers in the WWF ring (sh*t...what an awful example!) constantly looking for that weakness they can exploit in the other.

Now that the finest producer of airliners is no longer with us (fly DC Jets!) we are left with Airbus (the young upstart with fine products, almost the Lexus of the clouds!) and Boeing (the Rolls Royce of the skies) tussling for market share.

GREAT!

It encourages innovation and refinement! Let's hope it stays that way!
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
ACAfan
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:37 am

They dont need to compete against the 7E7. The 330 is a fine aircraft. If they can reduce costs on the 330 even a fraction of the proposed 7E7 savings, the 330 will hold its niche, as the costs are spread over a larger number of passengers.
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
whitehatter
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:46 am

Exactly.

Ther 7E7 should be the prod in the ribs Airbus needs to improve the A330, and produce an even more efficient variant. Let's see the A330 with the GENX and Trent 1000, together with the systems refinements needed to carry those engines.

Airbus won't stand still. Count on it.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
N754PR
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:13 am

The A330 is doing fine, look at the MU 30 aircraft order yesterday. I would guess they will make a new version or upgraded A332.
Bush, your a sad, sad man.
 
yul332LX
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:19 am

If you mean ten years from now, you can bet that Airbus will come up with a whole new plane incorporating all the 7E7 improvements and probably more.

In the meantime though, Airbus will try to position the 332 as a proven plane (while the 7E7 is not) and probably put much emphasis on the commonality of the 332 with the other airbus products. It might work for a while but I don’t see Airbus selling hundreds of 332 in years to come.

The 332 probably has a better future as a cargo a/c in the next decade.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
BWIA 772
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:20 am

I may be wrong but wont the 7e7 cater to the A300/310 market right up to the 330 market which seems to be pretty huge.
Eagles Soar!
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:29 am

If they can reduce costs on the 330 even a fraction of the proposed 7E7 savings, the 330 will hold its niche, as the costs are spread over a larger number of passengers.

Only for the A330-300, with which the 7E7 will never compete with in the first place. The A333 is a 772A competitor. And, the 7E7-9 is slightly larger than the A332, so this argument is rather moot.

The A330 is doing fine, look at the MU 30 aircraft order yesterday.

This order was for A333s, ASAIK, again not a 7E7 competitor. Airbus will continue to gain orders from exisiting A330 customers who want to complete thier existing fleets rather than add a new fleet type. The more important issue is new customers (such as the SQ battle) with which Airbus will be hard pressed to compete with the 7E7.

Let's see the A330 with the GENX and Trent 1000, together with the systems refinements needed to carry those engines.

For now, these two engines are bleedless and they are not compatible with the systems onboard the A330. Rolls Royce said "no" to an upgraded Trent 700, saying it would be better for Airbus to work around the Trent 1000 or "commercialize" the Trent 1000. RR might make a bleed air version of the engine for Airbus, but nothing is set in stone.

Problem with bleedless engines is the cost of reengineering the airframe to be compatible with the engine is not likely justified by the improved economics.

Expect Airbus to counter the 7E7 with a proposal of their own, just like two sides in a chess game.

Airbus should first introduce an A320 replacement that features a narrow-widebody configuration. It would seat 2+2+2, with variants seating 220, 180, and 140, with 3500nm range. Then Airbus would follow up with an all-new heavy twin, that replaces the A340 family and A330 family with a singe airframe. The first being a 260 seater with 8500nm range, the second being a 310 seater with 8000nm range, and the third being a 360 seater with 8000nm range.
 
BWIA 772
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:50 am

DFW

Your are basically saying that Airbus will have to come up with new type if it seriously wants to compete with the 7e7.

Can someone exlpain to me this thing about bleedless engines.
Eagles Soar!
 
aa757first
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:59 am

Expect Airbus to counter the 7E7 with a proposal of their own, just like two sides in a chess game.

That would be very hypocritical after all of their press releases.

AAndrew
 
md80fanatic
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:13 am

They will build more large aircraft that for some reason cannot use existing infrastructure. I wonder what possessed engineers to depart from that hard/cold rule anyway? What would we think of Chysler if they started making a car that NEEDED larger roadways on which to travel? I like the 380 but hey....make 'em to fit what we already got, period. What do they think, money grows on trees?

The above is my personal opinion and it is not meant to be the catalyst of another silly A vs B argument.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:17 am

Your are basically saying that Airbus will have to come up with new type if it seriously wants to compete with the 7e7.

Basically, yes. To match the 7E7, the A332 must trim several tons of weight, add 2,000nm of range, and reduce fuel burn by a good 15-20%. With all the radical technologies in the 7E7, they can't simply gut the A330 and build an NG like the 737. They can hold onto some market with an NG, but not hold ground against the 7E7.

Can someone exlpain to me this thing about bleedless engines.

All existing engines sap an amount of air out of the compressor to drive turbines that themselves drive the hydraulic, electric, and air conditioning units of the aircraft. This 'bleed-air' can be quite a lot for large aircraft, and basically, it is air that is not working to propell the aircraft. Also, the engines must always be run at a certin level to maintain the bleed-air supply for the aircraft systems, lest the APU require power-up.

By eliminating the need for bleed-air, all thrust generated by the engine goes to propelling the aircraft. The engines do not need to maintain a certin thrust level, and can be run at whatever rate is efficent. Since all systems would become electrical, the APU can merely be a JetA1 powered generator. All the heavy duct-work that routes the red-hot bleed air to the turbines is eliminated. The aircraft becomes electrical not mechanical.

This is great for a newly designed aircraft, but trying to modify an existing aircraft into a bleedless aircraft is easier said than done. You basically have to redesign every system on the aircraft...
 
BWIA 772
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 3:43 pm

DFW thanks for the explanation i have gotten the general idea so now when anyone in my family talks about planes I can come across as a real knowledgeable aviation fan Big grin

The 7e7 seems to be a promising aircraft Boeing is heading in a completely direction than airbus lets hope that they are right which I am sure they will be.
All though that I am really looking forward to the 7e7 success and how 7e7 technology will be used to shape a 737 and even a 747 replacement.
Eagles Soar!
 
AeroOzzie
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:56 pm

By building an A300/A310 replacement. It's become blatantly obvious now that the A332 is too capable (i.e. heavy and large) an aircraft to replace the A300/A310/762/763 class of aircraft and with the seemingly far more efficient 7E7-9 now competing sizewise with the A332, Airbus are going to have to come up with a new design.

Any talk now of the A332Lite being able to compete pound for pound with the 7E7, or a non-need for a 7E7 competitor is simply marketing bullshit, and that's perfectly acceptable (just as Boeing has in the past said it doesn't see a viable market in the A380 size class yet every now and then you see another enlargened 747 redesign/upgrade/improvement being touted).

I won't be surprised to see a firm 7E7 competitor sized aircraft announced in 2006 around the time the first A380 enters service and the engineers can afford to concentrate more on a new aircraft. A market of some 2000 aircraft is too big for Airbus to ignore.

Cheers

AeroOzzie
 
target
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 5:46 pm

I think the same modifications to the 7E7-Engines that Boeing is planning for use on the 747Adv (like Trent1000 with bleedair) could be used on the A330.

But what about the composites? I'm not sure how much this saves in weight.

isn't the main problem for Airbus, that the 7E7 is just a bargain when you think of how much technology it has at that comparably low price? If you compare A34X to B777 you can say that the B777 may be a bloody good airplane but it sure is very expensive.

How is it possible that Boeing can sell the 7E7 at almost the same price as a 767? Airbus must find the answer to that or they may lose some marketshare.....

Back to topic, if Airbus makes a successor to the A33X after A380, Boeing could start the same time on the B737-successor, so Airbus again on the defensive.

exciting times ahead and this time it seems that Airbus walks behind!

OK this is my first post on a.net but hopefully not the last
 
mrniji
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:20 pm

DfwRevolution,

you and your reasonless Airbus bashing.

Airbus should first introduce an A320 replacement that features a narrow-widebody configuration

Why? The A318-21 family has proven to be a good product and will still be for many years
"The earth provides enough resources for everyone's need, but not for some people's greed." (Gandhi)
 
ua777222
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:16 pm

If what you are asking is how is the 380 going to put up with the 7e7. Well, if what they say will happen happens then orders should pick up quickly. I think it's just the fear of such a large a/c in such a low economy. OR If what your asking is that with the addition of this new a/c will Boeing out do Airbus on the numbers. Well with this addition they will also be losing 2-3 a/c lines (757,717,747(?)). Airbus too has it's MANY loyal customers as does Boeing. I think that they are both well off and it isn't even a matter of how one will do against the other.

UA777222
"It wasn't raining when Noah built the ark."
 
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keesje
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 7:28 pm

Lets hope Boeing can recover from 2008,

after been slammed by Airbus since the year 2000.

Boeing has many years experience which Airbus does not

You mean before 1970 (before concorde) ? Kidding right ?

Airbus is the winner at this moment and will find solutions if the market requires this.


"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
9V-SPF
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 8:17 pm

DfwRevolution,

you and your reasonless Airbus bashing.


I don´t see him bashing anyone. Although I do not agree with some of his points (for example the need for an A320 replacement), he argued in a civilized manner and explained his point of view (which he is entitled to) while you did not.

I personally think that the best thing which can happen to the industry (and its customers) would be a huge success for the 7e7 (and it´s looking quite good at the moment) as this would most probably force Airbus to come up with something new, maybe even more advanced.
Remember that competition is an indispensable requirement for technological progress and no one can deny that we wouldn´t have the pleasure of riding on brilliant masterpieces of engineering like the B777 or the A330 today if it had not been for at least two great manufacturers since the 1970s.

Daniel  Smile
 
Guest

RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 9:05 pm

The 7e7 will sure be a good product but so many airlines have the A332 (40 odd) that i think Airbus have more time on ther hands to react.

Dont agree with going for the A320 replacement next. The A320 is on par with the 737NG's at the moment. I think an update will be on the cards in the future but the A310/A300 is in need of a replacement. They are the only Airbus A/C which dont use FBW.

And BTW when Boeing say 15%-20%, dont take that too literally. Both Boeing and Airbus overestimate their planes in their statements.
 
planemaker
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:00 pm

I just want to echo Roberta's post about the 15-20% figure and add that this percentage also has to be put into proper context -- vs other aircraft and impact on an airline's fleet and overall operating cost. It seems that a lot of people are reading these figures as "more fuel efficient" or "cost efficient" (for example), which are obviously 2 different things.

What would be interesting is to see Boeing's breakdown of the projected 7E7 % advantage in terms of fuel, maintenance, ownership, residual value, etc.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
leelaw
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:10 pm

IMO, competition as well as necessity are the mothers of invention. I sometimes wonder why some of the users seem to crave the hegemony of one manufacturer over the entire marketplace. Lord knows innovation and quality would suffer, and unit prices would rise. Even the former Soviet Union had multiple design bureaus. Boeing has made its move, Airbus will surely counter and everyone involved will be the better for it.
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Qantasclub
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:16 pm


I don't think it's a case of what Airbus has that can compete with the 7E7 but rather, what does Boeing have to compete with the A380.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:19 pm

you and your reasonless Airbus bashing.

Trying to see where exactly I was Airbus bashing...  Nuts

Was it when I explained what a bleedless/bleed-air aircraft was, or that the A330 was threatened by the 7E7?

Why? The A318-21 family has proven to be a good product and will still be for many years

Reason being, in 2018 the A320 family will be 30 years old. Thirty years old. When you call the 737 a 37 year old aircraft, this is partially false as the NG aircraft are as modern as possible. But in 2018, the A320 will be pretty damn old.

Airbus would be hardpressed to match the 7E7 with the A330 family. The best way to go, as we mostly agree, is an all new A330 replacement. Problem is, the A330 line is tied at the waist to the A340 line. Airbus could replace both of these aircraft with a single line of aircraft, the first being A332 size, the next being A333/A343 size, the last being slightly smaller than the A346. They would be large twins with range in the 7,000-8,000nm market. If this aircraft entered service in 2010-2015, the 777 would be pushing 20 years old.

But Airbus could, and should IMO, react first with an A320 replacement. If the A320-replacement stops the 737NG in its tracks, as the 7E7 will probably do to the A330, Airbus would greatly slow Boeing's advance. By seating 2+2+2 in a narrow-wide configuration Airbus can maximize underfloor cargo and pitch it as a 7E7SR competitor. It's narrower configuration would appear more appealing for short-range flights. Many customers would balk at jumping from a 220 seat 752 to a 280 seat 7E7-3. Sizing the A320 replacement in 220, 180, and 140 incriments solves this problem.

Both Boeing and Airbus overestimate their planes in their statements.

Except Boeing typically exceeds them  Big grin

I don't think it's a case of what Airbus has that can compete with the 7E7 but rather, what does Boeing have to compete with the A380.

Boeing came to the opinion that the superjumbo market cannot sustain two competing models. I tend to see this as a good idea because, rather than getting in a pissing contest over size, Boeing is taking on the real money makers. Boeing's focus is to destroy the business case for what is currently Airbus strongest product line- the A332. That is their response to the A380.

Time will tell...
 
planemaker
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:50 am

"By seating 2+2+2 in a narrow-wide configuration Airbus..."

sounds nice in theory but airlines would not go for sub-200 pax aircraft in that configuration for the simple reason that having an extra aisle in a 6-abreast seating configuration would only add to costs and provides no operating benefit. The slightly larger cargo lobe would only have a small marginal revenue impact, if that, for the majority of carriers.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:05 am

sounds nice in theory but airlines would not go for sub-200 pax aircraft in that configuration for the simple reason that having an extra aisle in a 6-abreast seating configuration would only add to costs and provides no operating benefi

Rapid turnarounds perhaps? You only have 3 passengers per row squeezing down an isle rather than 6. Also, if you are seated 2+2+2 in comfortable seats, with IFE and decent a la carte meal service, what reason do you have to fly first class if the trip is under an 2-3 hours?

Airlines could make their domestic product all economy, which speeds passenger boarding and maximizes aircraft utilization. And if composites can trim as much weight as they claim, wouldn't it offset the additional weight of a wider fuselage?
 
ACAfan
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:18 am

post #11: What would we think of Chysler if they started making a car that NEEDED larger roadways on which to travel?

Chrysler DID invent the minivan, and AMC invented the SUV  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
planemaker
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:12 am

"Rapid turnarounds perhaps? You only have 3 passengers per row squeezing down an isle rather than 6."

"Airlines could make their domestic product all economy, which speeds passenger boarding and maximizes aircraft utilization."


Remember, only one pax can go through the door at a time so there wouldn't really be any appreciable difference in turnarounds.


"Also, if you are seated 2+2+2 in comfortable seats, with IFE and decent a la carte meal service, what reason do you have to fly first class if the trip is under an 2-3 hours?"

Again, nice in theory but not realistic. As you know, the leagacies have reduced meal serivce - the opposite of adding a la carte service! Remember - the fare rules! On the other hand, if what you say about "2+2 in comfortable seats" holds true, jetBlue with the E190 and US Air with the E170 should have a lot of success.


"And if composites can trim as much weight as they claim, wouldn't it offset the additional weight of a wider fuselage?"

No, because not only do you still have the additional weight of the composite in a 2+2+2 vs a 3+3 (obviously we have to assume that Airbus would use composites for any hypothetical 320 replacement irrespective of seating configuration) but also the increased frontal and surface drag of the larger fuselage that impacts fuel efficiency. And, of course, the aircraft purchase price would be higher due to the added manufacturing and material cost of the larger fuselage.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
md80fanatic
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:16 am

"Chrysler DID invent the minivan, and AMC invented the SUV"


Well yes, but the road didn't need modification for those monsters to fit on it. I agree they use more space.
 
Leskova
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:54 am

True, the A380 will need an expanded infrastructure... but that wouldn't be that much of a problem if the airports had built terminal stands according to the 80x80m box that all planes have to fit into - and if quite a number of international airports weren't already relying on exemptions from having to comply with the rules for actually accomodating B747s...

As for the 2-2-2 layout - when LH tried out the B753 on domestic routes to see if they could replace the A300s with them, one of the comments by LH's fleet planning was (translated more or less word for word) "We don't like it if our planes poke such big holes into the air" - in other words: the narrower, the more we like it.

Because of that - and the points that Planemaker listed - I don't see a 2-2-2 layout as a possibility in the near-to-mid future.

Regards,
Frank
Smile - it confuses people!
 
manni
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:02 am

How is Airbus going to compete with the 7E7?

By matching the price of the A330 with the price of a 7E7. Exactely what they did with the 20 A333's for China Eastern.  Big grin
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9V-SPF
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:07 am

Also, if you are seated 2+2+2 in comfortable seats, with IFE and decent a la carte meal service, what reason do you have to fly first class if the trip is under an 2-3 hours?

Ooh, in this case airlines would have a good reason NOT to buy that airplane  Big grin
 
9V-SPF
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:10 am

By matching the price of the A330 with the price of a 7E7. Exactely what they did with the 20 A333's for China Eastern.

I don´t know about the exact pricing but the A333 does rather not compete with the 7e7.
 
gigneil
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:22 am

LH tried the 753...

...and hated it.

A la carte meal service is the way everything is going, especially on the majors. A buy your own type approach.

A widebody narrowbody will not ever happen, and Airbus will not replace the 320 until orders dry up. If the 7E7 kills the 330, they'll react with a new 330 first. There's no sense in replacing your best selling line.

N
 
nwa330tony
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:55 am

All it takes is Airbus Fitting the new technology engines in its A330's and vwala instant solution!
 
peteinmiami
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:10 am

Clear and simple I think the 7E7 Program is just the way Boeing is answering to the Airbus successful aircraft program, not the other way!!!!
 
A330Jamaica
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:53 am

I have said it over and over again. If I were Airbus, I would be worrying about how the A380 is going to fare and not worrying about the 7E7. Commercial aviation ten years from now will be SMALLER, I repeat SMALLER than it is at present. Fuel supplies will not be adequate for the industry to continue operating at its present scale. I will repeat, oil production will have "peaked" and aviation is going to be the first industry to get hit. Airlines will not be announcing major orders when struggling to survive. Look at how this modest $10 per barrel rise is having a negative effect on airlines. What happens if oil prices are in the region of $80 or more per barrel. Believe me, that is coming within the next 10 years at most.The potential savings of the 7E7 (maybe 20% over the A330) will not be enough to overcome this dilemna. For aviation to survive at its present state, energy intensity would have to not only approach that of surface transport but beat it which is obviously impossible given the laws of physics. The industry cannot possibly continue operating business as usual. I again will refer you to the following sites. Every thing they state is backed up by hard geological facts, not hearsay. When you have a few hours to spare, browse through these areas http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net, http://www.peakoil.com, http://www.peakoil.net, http://www.dieoff.com, http://www.wolfatthedoor.com, http://www.hubbertpeak.com.
Believe me people, aviation is in serious trouble over the medium to long term. You can choose to ignore my statements, or you can do your own research and arrive at your own conclusions. That will not change the fundamental facts however.
 
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:57 am

Commercial aviation ten years from now will be SMALLER, I repeat SMALLER than it is at present

i looked at those sites and found this

For six consecutive years, ChevronTexaco has had good news for anyone worried that the world is running out of oil: The company has found more oil and natural gas than it has produced. Over that time, ChevronTexaco's proven oil and gas reserves have risen 15 percent, more than 1 billion barrels."

The prediction by transport experts is 50% higher demand in traffic.
 
aerosol
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 5:13 am

Depnds how you define smaller. Could also mean less frequency....bigger planes!
 
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keesje
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:12 am

Sideline :
Chrysler DID invent the minivan, and AMC invented the SUV
Minican The Matra/Renault/Talbot Espace or P18, 1980, production 1984 ?

SVU: the good old Range Rover (197.) ? AMC Eagle was in 1982, so first American SUV..

On the subject :
there are lots of ways to further improve the A320/330 family apart from the now hyped bleedless engines. There just was no need sofar.

The 320 family was/is so far ahead of the B737 it could be left mostly unchanged for almost 20 years ... doesn´t mean there can never be a 320NG series, just no pressure to do so at the moment.

Talking about replacing the A330/340 family is nonsense for the time being. Boeing copied the basics (although it is trying to convince the world this is something completely new that will change the industry ..).

The 330/340 just has the right size (unlike the 767) and Boeing´s choice is proving it. Just look at the 7e7 and leave of the cosmetic nose (they took care of the tail themselves) and what do you have ?
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Ruscoe
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:11 am

Airbus leaders have already stated how they will compete with the 7E7. PRICE.

In the short term that is all they can do. The 380 is draining all Airbus free cash for development, so a 7e7 competitior will have to wait, for maybe a 2012 intro, or later.

Wait for the details of the discount on the upcoming 30 aircraft order out of China for the 330.

Airbus is vulnerable at the moment. A300 is dead, 310 is dead, 320 only matches 73NG, 330, by far their best product is being significantly bettered by the 7E7, 342 and 343 are dead, 345 is a niche product and matched (or bettered) by yet to fly 772LR, 773ER, is forcing Airbus to develop a higher MTOW 346, but except for price the 773ER is a superior aircraft, by every reconing I have seen. Airbus have no direct 747 competitor, and that makes the 380 their best bet, but has all the usual risks associated with such an enormous project.

Watch Boeing develop a 737 replacement sooner, rather than later, and Airbus is in serious trouble. I am not A bashing. The whole basis of A troubles is the 380 and the drain on development resources. A could have put B in this position by developing a 320 and 300 series replacement early, rather than the 380.

And just to make it more difficult for them, the lower prices they are asking for their product will further eat into their self generated development money. You will not see the effects of this for a couple more years, because many of the current deliveries are at the "normal price", but in a couple of years the deliveries will be at the discounted price.

Ruscoe
 
Guest

RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:39 am

Airbus are in a fine position. The A320 is selling well and is a good product. The A332 is bettered by the 7E7 but many customers have the A332 and wont necessarily go for the 7E7, just buy more A332's instead. The A333 is an amazing product which will not be dramatically affected by the 7E7 due to its larger size. The A343 is not dead, quiet but not dead. The A346HGW will have advatages over the 773ER, such as 500nm range larger cargo capacity. The A380 is winning orders all over the place. And dont forget the Airbus have a trump card............commonality, which makes each plane in the A340/330 family part of a complementary team.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:53 am

The A332 is bettered by the 7E7 but many customers have the A332 and wont necessarily go for the 7E7, just buy more A332's instead,

This is true as it makes much more sense to complete an existing fleet rather than introduce a new fleet type. WN ordered 30 733s after their launch order was placed, and didn't ANA convert a 763 option at the time of the 7E7 order?

Problem is, these orders will never amount to much. The China Eastern order for 20 was about as big as they come. The A332 will probably win another 100-150 orders in its life, a figure Boeing hopes to secure by August. In terms of new customers, the A330 will be hard pressed to win any. How many 767 opperators can Airbus hope to score now that the 7E7 is on the scene? There are 900 767s in the world, many have not chosen the A330 family, and now Boeing has the superior aircraft on the market.

The A346HGW will have advatages over the 773ER, such as 500nm range larger cargo capacity

Of which the 773ER can possibly match and this still won't solve the issue of 772LR superiority over the A345. And the A346HGW won't enter service until 2007, meaning short-term Boeing still has a comanding advantage in securing new customers.

320 only matches 73NG

I think it is the other way around  Big grin

Airbus leaders have already stated how they will compete with the 7E7. PRICE.

Not an effective long-term, or even short-term, strategy. The 7E7 aquistion cost is listed from 100-120 million, while the A332 starts at 130 million list. Then come the discounts. On paper, if Boeing discounts a 110-million dollar 7E7 by 27% (to 80 million dollars) Airbus must discount by at least 38% to match. Boeing clearly has the advantage in pricing and the 7E7 is still the better product.
 
VSXA380X800
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:05 am

I had no time to read a 50 thousand reply(so I just read the first few and the last few) so I will just would like to respond by saying Airbus should lower the cost of the 330( since everyone is complaining) and ask RR to manufacturer some new engines(longer ranges to compete with the 777 in performance and the 7e7 in seating since thats the iusse. Right now the 7e7 would be the choice of the airlines. ANA Placing an order for 50 of the 7e7 will be an example for the airlines. God forbid if any thing bad happens( with components of some sort. Both aircrafts, to me, are excellent performers. By the way, how many A330s ANA has in service?
4 decks 4 engines 4 long haul
 
Guest

RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:19 am

Of which the 773ER can possibly match

The 773ER growth is limited by the GE90's Thrust, mabe you could squeeze an extra 10,000lbs out of it, you'll have to ask Frank.

772LR superiority over the A345

Pretty insignificant as the market is so small, and incidentaly i heard a few rumbles of Airbus considering a A345HGW too. Although i think it would be worth their while trying to reduce the OEW 10t as supposed to increasing the MTOW 10t.

There are 900 767s in the world, many have not chosen the A330 family, and now Boeing has the superior aircraft on the market

many are also frieghters, or sitting in the desert, and AA DL and UA own around 260 of them. Still a fair old lot to replace though.

Big 7e7 customers in the near future include BA AC JL SQ and LH IMO.
 
Propulsion
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:15 pm

The short answer to the question posed would be: with difficulty. Price is probably the most likely weapon thereafter.
A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
 
BWIA 772
Posts: 1613
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:26 pm

It seems like Boeing is saying to Airbus you may have won the battle but you will not win the war.

BTW will the 7e7 have automatic doors like the L1011 I do hope so with all this techonology it is time that we get rid of these manual aircraft doors.
Eagles Soar!
 
sandiaman
Posts: 85
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RE: How Is Airbus Going To Compete With The 7E7?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:23 pm

There is an article written by R. Aboulafia, published in Aerospace America in April 04. The article theorizes on Airbus' competitive response to the Dreamliner.

Although the article is somewhat dated (i.e., written before the industrial launch of 7E7, and prior to announcements of the A330-200Lite proposals), it still contains some interesting facts.

http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/images/articleimages/pdf/insights.april04.pdf

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