na
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747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:16 pm

http://active.boeing.com/commercial/orders/index.cfm

Not bad for the "old" Queen of the skies!

Korean Air has just ordered two more 747-4B5ER Fs.
 
warren747sp
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:31 pm

Thank God for the 744 Freighter business.
But they are not selling too many 7444ER passenger version except to Qantas,
I don't see the trend continuing too much longer.
747SP
 
LMP737
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:36 pm

Looks like the ANZ 777 has not shown up on the site yet.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
SafetyDude
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sat Jun 12, 2004 10:58 pm

What are those 19 "unidentified" orders of the 737 and 767?

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
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solnabo
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:15 pm

Uhumm...Qantas getting A388 instead of B744ER!
Hellooooo  Big grin

Mike/SE
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
whitehatter
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:08 am

Air freight is a healthy part of the industry, and the 747 was originally designed with freight in mind. That's where the 'lump' came from after all!

As a freight hauler, only the Antonovs can compare to its flexibility so the 744F will continue to attract orders from that sector. Even the A380F is limited to standard shipping containers, as it doesn't have nose or tail loading.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Scorpio
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:17 am

As a freight hauler, only the Antonovs can compare to its flexibility so the 744F will continue to attract orders from that sector.

While I hope you're right (it's hard not to love the 747) let's not forget that in the coming yeras quite a few airlines will start ditching their 747-400 passenger aircraft. This might pose a serious threat to the market for new 747s...
 
whitehatter
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:30 am

While I hope you're right (it's hard not to love the 747) let's not forget that in the coming yeras quite a few airlines will start ditching their 747-400 passenger aircraft. This might pose a serious threat to the market for new 747s...

I think that the 747 aftermarket will be healthy enough. As for the 747-400SF program, there hasn't really been anything concrete regarding how Boeing proposes doing the conversion. Namely whether they will be offering a nose-job on them!

The emerging markets in China will be a good place to look to for a large number of 747F orders, whether new-build or conversions. As economies expand, goods need moving.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Guest

RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:42 am

I am not debating A388 vs. 744ER

but you said

the A388 is not the end-all, be-all.

so on some level you are.

and Solnablo never said they were replacing the 744ER's with A380's. He just said they probably wont be getting any more, or something like that.
 
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solnabo
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:19 am

U are so right, Roberta! Xactly what I said....or wrote  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Airbus SAS - Love them both
 
cwapilot
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:39 am

Nice attempt at covering your arse, roberta, but, as usual, you have tripped over your own arrogance. No, I was not debating 744/388 on ANY level; just pointing out that the two aircraft are not mutually exclusive...they will fullfill 2 different missions within QF.

Flea boy was responding to "But they are not selling too many 744ER passenger version except to Qantas," with a statement that they were getting the A388 instead...factually wrong, since the orders for the two were placed roughly within the same time period. He didn't say they weren't getting anymore, nor has Qantas said they are not getting anymore. If that's what he meant to say, then he should have said it.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
yul332LX
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:17 am

As for the 747-400SF program, there hasn't really been anything concrete regarding how Boeing proposes doing the conversion. Namely whether they will be offering a nose-job on them!

What's not concrete? CX is the launch customer for the 744SP. Conversion for CX's a/c will be made by Taikoo and take place in Xiamen (China). There will be no nose job on these 744; only a SCD installation.
E volavo, volavo felice più in alto del sole, e ancora più su mentre il mondo pian piano spariva lontano laggiù ...
 
Guest

RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:26 am

Nice attempt at covering your arse,

Nice attempt at covering yours as well.

No, I was not debating 744/388 on ANY level

then in the same sentance you go on to debate the two aircraft.

just pointing out that the two aircraft are not mutually exclusive

And i was just pointing out that the 744 is almost totally obselete given you only have to fill 36 more seats on an A380 to break even. I guess landing fees and a few other things would be cheaper, like purchase price.

"But they are not selling too many 744ER passenger version except to Qantas,"

Actually they arent selling any 744ER's to QF

And they are in the process of selling/delivering A380's to QF

And throw in the fact that Solnabo's first language is not English

"Qantas getting A388 instead of B744ER!" is true.
 
United Airline
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:59 am

Qantas will operate both B 747-400/400ER as well as the A 380. Will likely see more of both aircraft types.

Boeing will come up with this new B 747 Advanced soon and hopefully we will see a lot more orders.

Regards.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:13 am

So typical of an A.net thread. I would buy a Learjet and put the rest of the money in the bank. My bank.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:49 am

Did I tell you the one about the dog on a flea's ass? Had a hell of a time finding a flea collar.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
donder10
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 6:35 am

I am not debating A388 vs. 744ER

but you said

the A388 is not the end-all, be-all.

so on some level you are.


No,he is more pointly out to those who compare the 388 to the 744/ER that they don't always compete directly.36 seats can mean a massive difference in profitability.
 
Guest

RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:00 am

No,he is more pointly out

so he is sharing his point

so he is debating

thank you

36 seats can mean a massive difference in profitability.

dont worry the 34m2 extra cargo space should account for that.
 
cwapilot
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:54 am

Well, at least Donder gets it, so I know I am not crazy.

Debating the two aircraft would mean arguing about which is better. Clearly, I have not. You, on the other hand... And, since you want to get technical, no, they aren't selling A380s to QF anymore either...they already sold them, and they are waiting for them. QF officials have also left the door wide open to future 747 sales. They have stated a need for both the 747 and A380. It is doubtful they would be ordering any more of either type for quite some time in any case.

I should have known better than to have argued with a child with a chip on his shoulder who obviously knows it all.  Insane Now, I must fight my urge to get the last word in, anticipate the last flurry of ignorance that will inevitably come, and ignore it.
Southside Irish...our two teams are the White Sox and whoever plays the Cubs!
 
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glideslope
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:28 am

"well given you only have to fill 36 more seats than a 744ER to break even i think the A380's only disadvantage compared to the 747 will be flying into airports which cant handle the A380 in its early life."


I'll believe that when I see some real numbers. The 380 is already 10 tons overweight. We all know how accurate the 346 wing weight came in. : )
To know your Enemy, you must become your Enemy.” Sun Tzu
 
aussie747
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:39 am

QF will need more 744 and/or 744ER's quite soon. Given its requirement to add the following 744 services over the next 10 months it leaves QF with no more 744 capacity to add to the US market, which it will need no doubt for the US 2005 summer let alone for the 2004 Northern winter schedule.

4 new direct services HKG-LHR (to be linked from QF 187/188)
3 direct sevices SYD-SIN-LHR

it's SYD-BOM sevices will be by 743's whilst SYD-PVG and PER-HKG services by A333.

QF has been very pleased with 744ER on it's MEL-LAX services.
 
Propulsion
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:42 am

What an interesting debate.

Cwapilot rightly declared that Qantas do operate 744ER's and that they may indeed find space in which to accommodate them in their fleet together with the A388 but for different roles. He also quite rightly contended that 'the A388 is not the end-all, be-all'.

Roberta: By writing this, Cwapilot, in my mind, simply meant that the A388 may not be seen as the definitive answer to all airlines need. There is scope in which to operate both so long as the differentials between particular services renders the ability to do so economically justifiable. He did not begin, nor outright advocate a battle against the A388. Cwapilot did not help matters by reference to the dogs rear end, but one could claim that Roberta's 'hellooooo' remark and general over reaction changed the tone of the debate and unnecessarily exacerbated the hostility of the debate.
A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
 
trevd
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:27 am

Roberta - don't be so quick on those 36 seats suggesting the A380 will obsolete the 744 or 744ER. The numbers I've been shown suggest Airbus is showing breakeven with about 415 - 430 seats (depending on cost basis) or only an additional 30-40 seats more than a typical 375-400 seat 744.

That's about a 78% load factor for a 550 seat config. But I don't know anyone planning on using that many, I've heard SIA, QAN, Virgin all around the high 400's - low 500's. That drives the breakeven loads up to the mid 80's. The other side of the coin is the risk that represents. In a typical 400 seat config most international carriers breakeven on the 744 at around 70% load factor or about 280 seats. That means the difference between where a 747-400 starts earning profit before the A380 is around 135 seats, that's HUGE. I know a lot of customers who believe the size difference between the 744 and A380 represents a very large gap. If there is anything that potentially obsoletes the 744 it will be the 773ER - almost as many seats but with lower seat mile costs and trip costs.

I agree that Boeing has to make some decisions on the future of the 747 in the near term. If it does step forward with the 747 advanced it could bring a 450+ seat airplane to the market with seat mile costs in line with the 773ER and 772LR giving operators a range of airplanes from 300 seats up to 450 seats.

We'll see...

Regards,
Trev
 
Jet-lagged
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:47 am


this roberta/cwapilot/solnabo/others grammatical disection is silly.

but, what I really want to know is "Did I tell you the one about the dog on a flea's ass? Had a hell of a time finding a flea collar." <--- sorry, but I don't get it. or am I just ignorant?

 
Propulsion
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:24 pm

TrevD is quite right. Many an airline may believe that the size difference between the Boeing 747-400 and the Airbus A380 is quite large. Others may determine that the even greater difference in size between Boeing 777 variants and the A380 give the 747 a unique role for particular market segments.
A bus is a vehicle that runs twice as fast when you are after it as when you are in it.
 
dreamcraft
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 1:24 pm

I think the A380 will be a flop. Airbus is simply gunning for the title of 'largest bird in the sky' - so to speak.

All Boeing needs to do is upgrade the 744 and the A380 is toast!

I'm sure to stoke the 'ire' of my European brothers in the forum. To them I say I am simply stating the facts as I see them i.e my opinion - time will tell.
 
AeroOzzie
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 2:35 pm

"I'm sure to stoke the 'ire' of my European brothers in the forum. To them I say I am simply stating the facts as I see them i.e my opinion - time will tell."

Er...right, the facts as you see them i.e. your opinion is in fact...FACT??? You loser.

I can't believe the amount of stupidity and "mine-is-better-than-yours" mentality on this forum sometimes...the A380 will not be a flop, it's already scored enough sales from enough world-class airlines to be called a tentative marketing success. Whether it's also a successful aircraft obviously remains to be seen, but I don't think Airbus are going to get it that wrong with this one. If all Boeing needs to do is upgrade the 744 and it'll "toast" the 30% larger (and hence in a completely different size class with very little market overlap) A380 is like saying that all Airbus needs to do to "toast" the 7E7 is upgrade the A321. You're an idiot.

QF are very happy with the 744ERs, they've proved a useful improvement on the existing 744s, especially on the MEL/SYD-LAX routes that were formerly strangled by weight restrictions (comparatively speaking), which is why you see the 6 almost exclusively on Australia-USA routes (and the only aircraft type operating the MEL-LAX service). With the planned route expansion, it looks like they may need more long haul aircraft, but whether this means more 744s remains to be seen.

Cheers

AeroOzzie

[Edited 2004-06-13 07:39:42]
 
iowaman
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:52 pm

Ok, this is offically a A vs. B Thread! Yawn
 
Ken777
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:56 pm

The 747 still has an important place in passenger operations - it is the only plane in its range and will be selected for routes over the 380, just as the 767 is selected over the 777.

I was thinking of the efforts to deliver the 380, then tried to compare that to the challenges the original 747 presented to Boeing. It slowly dawned on me that the real difference is computing power. At the time the 747 was designed computer memory was hand wired and 16K was (at the time) considered a mountain of memory. The average person on this board has significantly more computing power in their PC than Boeing had for the 747 development. Lots of guys sitting at drafting tables with their slide rules.

In other words, the original 747 was designed using slide rulers. It would be interesting to know if all of the "manual work" required for the development of the 747 increased the passion on the engineering side.

Like Boeing today, Airbus will have almost unlimited computing power and advanced software. It makes development of the 380 faster, probably cheaper and hopefully far more accurate at the detail level than possible when the 747 was originally developed. In this sense, Airbus had no excuse for not delivering a plane that will perform as advertised. Like the 777, it should exceed expectations and promises.
 
AeroOzzie
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 4:48 pm

When I'm sizing wing spars and designing engine nacelle fairings, believe me, i'm far more passionate about using a computer equipped with FEM, CFD etc. than using slide rules :P

A 747 sized aircraft and an A380 sized aircraft both have a place in the future commercial aircraft market. What's obvious is what the contenders in the A380 size class are (i.e. the A380, with no firm sign of a competing design from Boeing). It's less clear what will appear in the 747 size class. Airbus is going to shrink the A380, but my belief is that shrinks are never good designs as they are inherently overdesigned for their intended purpose (see the 736, A318, A332).

Boeing may deploy an upgraded 747, the 744ER is certainly a good aircraft but it's based on a design which entered service in 1988 (I consider the difference between a 742 and a 744 to be the same as the difference in terms of technological advance as a 733 to a 73G, they are almost completely incomparable) with a minor MTOW increase, strengthened wings and undercarriage, an upgraded interior and more efficient engines.

The other possibilities are of course a further stretched 777 or A340 - although unlikely - as I don't think the 773 and A346 are quite large enough to replace the 744s flying around today.

In the future, I see the following distinct markets envisaging for commercial aircraft with more than 100 seats:

100-180 seat short haul narrowbodies:

737NG family, A320 family

180-250 seat medium/long haul widebodies:

7E7-3, 7E7-8, A332

250-350 seat long haul widebodies:

7E7-9, 777 family, A333, A340 family

350-450 passengers:

???

450+ passengers:

A380

If the 747 were to disappear as a new aircraft, it leaves a big gap in the market between the 7E7-9/777/A333/A340 size class and the A380.

Cheers

AeroOzzie
 
elwood64151
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:42 pm

Er...right, the facts as you see them i.e. your opinion is in fact...FACT??? You loser.

No. He said his opinion was based on the facts as he saw them. Learn English. It's the native toungue of the land you claim is your home.

I'm going to suggest the deletion of this whole thread. The vast majority of posts have been AvB, and a lot of it is simply flamebait.
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
dreamcraft
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RE: 747 Orders Beat The 777 4 Times This Year!

Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:46 am

Dear AeroOzzie,

No need to get so personal. Like I said time will tell.

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