MEA310
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Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:16 am

I've checked Airbus' website,the orders&deliveries table in particular,and the A340-500 has only 21 orders with 11 already delivered.
SQ & EK are the only operators of this type so far,with the latest news in the forum that Air Canada will be taking deliveries of their two planes.
I was wondering why is the A345 only operated by the mentioned above airlines,why isn't anyone else oredring it?Is it the geographical location of the UAE & Singapore that imposed that EK & SQ go for with ultra long range A345,and therefore no other orders have been placed by other airlines?
Looking forward for your feedback,
Regards.

MEA310
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sk945
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:19 am

Not many airlines need the range of the A345. Thats why its so few customers.
 
Horus
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:19 am

The A345/A346 and 772LR/773ER are nich aircraft with ultra long range that won't sell in large numbers
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yul332LX
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:22 am

...And why so few 772LR customers?

Niche aircraft, more expansive than the 343E/772ER. Unit cost on these a/c is higher than on the regular 343E/772ER so airlines have no incentives to buy and operate them on long haul routes that does not require the range of an A345/772LR.

Nothing more, nothing less...



[Edited 2004-06-12 20:23:02]
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AIR757200
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:28 am


YUL332LX,

Great explanation...

You'll probably have to explain it again in two days when another "long range aircraft-so few customers" thread comes up.
 
Guest

RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:34 am

SQ & EK are the only operators of this type so far,with the latest news in the forum that Air Canada will be taking deliveries of their two planes.


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albeit its a private jet not in commercial service.

Is it the geographical location of the UAE & Singapore that imposed that EK & SQ go for with ultra long range

Well SQ wanted it for US flights as the range is a too far for their current jets.
EK wanted it for Long range flights, which could carry a lot of cargo and where pleased with the A345's hot and high takeoff performance out of DXB and its price.

TG have ordered 3 for US flights.

There is the possibility of QF ordering the A345.
 
MEA310
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 3:48 am

Roberta

I was referring to the A345 in commercial use only,I know about QR.
Thanks

MEA310
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LVZXV
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:10 am

Same reasons as the A342... Which is why AR is considering it instead of the A346.

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
LHMark
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:38 am

Hmmm.. Strange, but when this question was asked of the Boeing 764, the answers were very different, and less well-considered.
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scottysair
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:47 am

Good call about of A345. If they want get more customers go on the orders with A345. They need to beefing up with more new nonstop into the world. There is no US airlines make on the orders with A345/6 either.
 
Horus
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:51 am

There is no US airlines make on the orders with A345/6 either

No US airlines have made an order for B772LRs/773ERs either
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stirling
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 8:56 am

What are the major differences between the 345 and 346?
I just saw the 346 at the Berlin Air Show...could it be longer than a 747?
Is doing aerobatics in aircraft such a large aircraft really a good idea?????
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VSXA380X800
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:23 am

"Is it the geographical location of the UAE & Singapore that imposed that EK & SQ go for with ultra long range A345,and therefore no other orders have been placed by other airlines? "

I was following you until this part. Can you re phase this.

"Is doing aerobatics in a aircraft such a large aircraft really a good idea?????"

I really don't think this is a good idea either. I guess its how the wings are designed ,to be efficient, even at slow speeds. I went to the air show too, it was brilliant.
4 decks 4 engines 4 long haul
 
Guest

RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:24 am

What are the major differences between the 345 and 346?

A345 + 7meter = A346
A346 + 1150nm's range = A345

I just saw the 346 at the Berlin Air Show...could it be longer than a 747?

yup by 5 meters, the 773Er is also 2-3m longer too.

Is doing aerobatics in aircraft such a large aircraft really a good idea?????

when empty, yes!
 
leelaw
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:05 am

A real niche bird, just like the 753, 764, 772LR. I've flown on the 753, 764, and the inaugural SQ A345 service LAX-SIN and love them all. IMO they all have the nicest aesthetic lines of their respective series and aren't bad to ride on either, particularly the 117 seat economy section on the SQ A345.
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aussie747
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 10:23 am

In April QF called for tenders for a LR aircraft it was between the 777 and the A340 (no model specified), so expect an order to be announced probably in August 19 (when their full year results or announced) or October 21 (date of their AGM). I wouldn't anticipate an announcement any earlier as most large fleet announcements are usually made around this time.

 
Propulsion
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 12:05 pm

The reasons have been well explained in this topic. The ultra-long range aircraft are simply not required in the huge numbers we see other aircraft acquired. They are generally expensive and harder to get rid of second-hand and beyond.

The A345 is also shorter than the A346 so it is not simply a case of 'A346+1150nm range'.
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MEA310
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 7:21 pm

If the need for long range aircrafts is not widely spread then why is Boeing proceeding with their 772LR program?

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whitehatter
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Sun Jun 13, 2004 11:16 pm

If Boeing offer the 777 family to a customer, the 772LR ensures that Boeing can just about cover all mision requirements that customer might have.

The airline then won't need to look elsewhere for an ultra-long-range aircraft to do the nonstops, and it would make a 777 fleet purchase make even more sense.

PK bought three models of the family including the 777LR as this combination covered their perceived fleet needs. Being able to do that from one aircraft family made the deal look even better to them.
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AC
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:29 am

A340-500 has only 21 orders with 11 already delivered

Really very few orders. I am wondering how many firm orders are required for Airbus to recover its development costs. I agree these ultra-long flights are niche aircrafts, otherwise there should be some big orders from those aircraft-leasing companies beside airlines.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:06 am

Same reasons as the A342

Actually, not at all.

The A342 went to hell because a plane [in the same family] came out that could do everything it could, and then some, at a cheaper seat cost.

That is not the case with the current two C-market aircraft offerings.
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LVZXV
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 8:21 am

ConcordeBoy:

Which aircraft are you referring to? The A342 was designed to carry 240-300 pax 14,800km (8,000nm). The A343 carries 300 pax 13,500km (7,300nm), and neither the A332 nor the A333 come close in terms of range. Did Boeing produce anything around 1994 that boasted a greater range to the A342?

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:51 am

The A342 was designed to carry 240-300 pax 14,800km (8,000nm).

No A342 to ever enter commercial service had anywhere near that range. In fact, only 1 [factory-built] did, and it became an executive jet.

The aircraft I'm referring to is the A343X
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LVZXV
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:34 am

AR's 249-seat A342s have a range of 14,600km. Near enough.

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:49 am

Notice I said "factory built" at EIS, which the below aircraft is the only example thereof:

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Photo © Florian Eggenschwiler




AR's A342s were retrofitted to become -213Xs long after they'd already entered service.

[Edited 2004-06-14 03:51:39]
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LVZXV
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:33 am

When were those retrofits of which you speak, since AR's A342s (listed everywhere as standard -211s) have been pretty busy since they entered service. Never heard of the -213X conversion.

XV



[Edited 2004-06-14 04:35:52]
How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?
 
gigneil
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:43 pm

They have to be retrofits.

No A342 ever flew 14,600 kms before the A340-213X.

N
 
Vorticity
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:50 pm

But aren't the A345 and B772LR concepts just so cool! Even if their isn't high demand, I think it's so cool they can make such a long flight. Anyone remember voyager that made it around the world? There's no point to airliners ever giving them that kind of a range, but it would be cool if they could sometime in the future.
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RayChuang
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:00 am

I think what might happen is that Airbus maybe looking at a even higher gross weight (HGW) version of the A340-600 beyond what was announced recently that may allow the A346 to fly as far as 8,200 nautical miles. At that range, the A340-500 becomes superfluous for most of the world's long routes.

How can they do this? They can probably do this by 1) sacrificing some of the large under-floor cargo space of the A346 for even more fuel capacity and 2) probably using a higher-rated version of the Trent 900 series rated at around 62,000 to 63,000 lb. thrust.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:52 am

since AR's A342s (listed everywhere as standard -211s)

...you mean like they are here too:

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LVZXV
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RE: Why So Few A345 Customers?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:27 am

Frank Schaefer seems to be the only photographer to list them as such. Just some other random examples:


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Photo © TTT




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Photo © Grahame Hutchison
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Photo © Montague Smith



Good to see AR doing things differently, as always!  Big thumbs up

XV

How do you say "12 months" in Estonian?

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