nudelhirsch
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Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 4:27 pm

Hi,

I heard different things, so maybe someone can clear up and if possible provide me with a link.

Is it legal in USA to purchase and own flight gear, while not being any form of Pilot, be it commercial or private?
I especially think of maps, logbooks, uniforms, and all that stuff.
I have seen lots of cool stuff on e-bay and it would cool to own some genuine flightgear, but being here on Visa and not even American Citizen I dont want any trouble.

Anyone can help?

Thx
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
itsjustme
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:28 pm

Nudelhirsch,

I don't know if you're being serious or not with your question but I will give you the benefit of the doubt and give you a legitimate answer. As a law enforcement officer in California I can only speak for my jurisdiction but I don't know of any Californina Penal Code you'd be violating by being in possession of the items you mentioned, assuming they weren't stolen or taken in a crime of any kind. That being said, if you were found to be in possession of those items and could not produce proper identification that would justify you having them, you can rest assured you'd raise my suspicion and I'd find a reason to detain you until the local Feds had a chance to talk to you.

Common sense should tell you that in this day and age, not being a pilot but being in possession of a pilot's uniform or any of "that stuff" would not be a wise thing to do.
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:43 pm

Thanks, that's about what I assumed, and I prefer to be careful, as You mentioned in these times it is strange, and not really wise.
Thats why I asked.
What about those people offering stuff at E-bay? Do they face any consequences or trouble?
Anyways, let's have safe skies, that is better than some collector's weird fun.
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
jamotcx
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:50 pm

Huh?????

Are the two of you taking the piss? Why cant anyone own these items?

I can walk into any flying school and have a flying lesson. I can also walk into any pilots shop and buy these items with no ID etc.

Big deal you own a log book or a map of the local area. I have loads of maps of all the airways from UK down throughout Europe. I also have a local VFR chart for northern England. And the biggest thing of all, I haven't started my pilot training yet! Does that now make me a terrorism suspect?


Jamo
 
itsjustme
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:00 pm

Again, I can only speak for my jurisdiction but as for the sale of the items you mentioned, as long as they weren't stolen or related to a crime of any kind, then the seller is not violating any California law.

However, if the seller is selling property that they do not rightfully own, such as a uniform or equipment that is owned by his or her employer, then they could be guilty of embezzlement.

 
qm001
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:03 pm

Jamotcx,

I am afraid (From experience) that whilst the US is supposed to be the land of the brave and free, they in actual fact will not allow you to possess anything that could even remotely be construed as being suspicious.

I recently traveled to the US, and was in possession of a book on Afghanistan and its history. Admittedly the book is rather controversial and rather stupidly I decided to take it with me. Not only was the book confiscated when I entered the US, but I was detained without question for 1 hour for questioning by some moron who I am sure could not even spell his own name. I had a very similar experience in the UK, however they did not confiscate the book I was reading at the time.

Now whilst I have the greatest respect for security agents just trying to do their Job and keep everyone safe from terrorists. Here comes a time when their jobs are just going too Far.

In this age of paranoia, that everyone is out to get us, sometimes people give up certain freedoms in order to keep the peace. Is this right?

Please excuse any political connotation to this response, but I was and still am rather annoyed by these incidents.

Kindest regards,

QM001 (167 Air Malawi)
I wish there was still a flying boat service on the African Lakes!
 
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scbriml
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:23 pm

I am afraid (From experience) that whilst the US is supposed to be the land of the brave and free, they in actual fact will not allow you to possess anything that could even remotely be construed as being suspicious.

Yes many totally innocent items will now cause suspicion, but watching porn on a flight (see separate thread) and owning guns is perfectly OK!  Insane
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
itsjustme
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 6:34 pm

Jamotcx,

I have no idea what "taking the piss" means in the United Kingdom but here in the United States, it means urinating. I can't speak for Nudelhirsch, but I assure you that, as I am writing this, I am not.

The original post pertained specifically to USA law and I provided an answer from a personal level as a law enforcement officer in the USA. If you will reread my response, you will note that I said mere possession of the items mentioned did not constitute a violation of California law but that it would, however, raise my suspicion. Although I didn't spell it out in my response, I was speaking specifically with regard to possessing a pilot's uniform.

Call me a paranoid American but I would find it a little strange that someone who is not a bonified commercial airline pilot would have the uniform of such in their possession and it's possible you would be slightly inconvenienced. If that offends you, so be it.
 
jamotcx
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:26 pm

woah whats that attack for?

taking the piss means joking.

The airline uniform thing, i was thinking about buying one just for a joke next time i go out with my mates. I dont really see what the problem is with owning one. Some guys own womens clothes and dress up in them.

Even if you have an airline uniform theres no way in hell you can get to a plane without security passes!


Jamo
 
jwenting
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 7:57 pm

The problem is not you owning a pilot's uniform but what you do with it.
Owning one, even wearing one, is not illegal.
Using one to try to get into restricted areas would be illegal.
And don't laugh, I think it's tried more often than you think and could well work especially during the small hours of darkness when the mind is slow and the eyes are heavy.

Using one to show off would be stupid. I've seen many people go hard on their face when trying that stunt...

I can understand why the finding of aviation charts and other items might set a police officer on guard IF they already had suspicions about the person involved.
I doubt severely that just the posession would be enough to arouse suspicion as to your motifs.
Many flight simulator fans and aircraft spotters have aviation charts, though most don't use uniforms..
I wish I were flying
 
itsjustme
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:15 pm

Jamo,

My response was not meant as an attack and if it came off as such, I sincerely apologize. I truly didn't know what "taking the piss" meant but now that I do, no, I wasn't joking. When I said I would find it suspicious if someone possessed a commercial airline pilot's uniform who had no business doing so, I meant it and I would act accordingly.

We receive a surprisingly large amount of intelligence advisories from the FBI each month that outline possible methods used for future attacks. The potential for the use of bogus airline uniforms, F/A, pilots, and mechanics included, to gain access to secure areas is considered strong. If the diligence of a law enforcement officer results in a bonified airline employee being delayed for a few minutes so that their ID can be verified, I have a feeling he or she won't mind.
 
oobitsa
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:48 pm

Rest assured that having any of these items in your posession is not a crime. Any authorities that challenge you on your posession of these items (in the US, at least) are walking a fine line and are far closer to violating the law than you are. A quick review of the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments of the US Constitution should straighten them out!

God Bless Everyone
(No exceptions!!!!)
 
itsjustme
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:44 pm

Oobitsa,

Thank you for that refresher course on the US Constitution. I'll bet you can recite your Miranda rights by heart as well. Those afternoon TV talk shows are an amazing educational tool, aren't they?

Might I suggest you bone up on your reading skills? I haven't seen anyone in this thread suggest that simple possession of the items mentioned being a crime. Further, can you enlighten me please on what "thin line" an authority would be walking should they ask someone possessing a commercial airline pilot's uniform for proper ID? I must have missed that episode on Oprah.
 
oobitsa
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RE: Legal To Own?

Mon Jun 14, 2004 11:59 pm

Easy there, Itsjustme. I mean no offense against you or the rest of law enforcement.

I happen to work for a living, so I'm not home for afternoon talkshows. As a contracts attorney, I might not be worthy of your respect, but I do no plenty about the constitution from 3 years in law school and six years as a Captial Hill staffer before moving on to private practice. What, pray tell, are your ACADEMIC credentials in the field?
 
nudelhirsch
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:06 am

Opps, looks I starte something here...lol

I was just curious, as I heard several reports about stuff available onplaces like E-Bay, most of these I heard back home in Germany, and I have seen stuff, which is leagl to sell, but illegal to buy, which for me is funny jurisdiction.
I know from German law, that possesing radar alerts for You car is legal, but once You use it, it isn't any longer. So I was just curious, how the situation is in an abviously dense topic, like we can read above.
I do not plan to become like Leonardo DiCaprio, or to pretend anything I am not, I was getting curious seeing these things for sale to public, while it is obvious, that it is not exactly wise to run around on the street and show that stuff.
So, let's not get political.
Oh, and I am not sitting on the lav either, while writing that...although I understood the phrase well...lol
Putana da Seatbeltz!
 
ualonghaul
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 12:24 am

"Are the two of you taking the piss? Why cant anyone own these items?"

Anyone ever see demolition man were sandara bullock uses modern day sayings incorrectly? "Taking the Piss"?? Are you serious? Why would anyone say anything like that and be serious about it. I think you are bound to get in a heap of trouble if you are found with pilots gear on, maps in hand, while "taking a piss" in a large group.

I am unsure as to why having any of this stuff is illegal. If you are going ot hijack a plane, are you going to make sure you are outfitted in proper pilots uniform and stupid looking hat? I doubt it. Why on earth would you want a pilots uniform anyway? I hope you are talking more about a jumpsuit than a jacket with gold threading all over it.

I'd go ahead and buy whatever you want.
 
JohnJ
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:51 am

Not long ago I went into the office at a flight school near me and bought a Jeppesen New York sectional chart. I'm not a pilot and nobody gave me the slightest hassle whatsoever.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 2:55 am

A quick review of the Fourth, Fifth, Sixth, Eighth and Fourteenth Amendments of the US Constitution should straighten them out!

Under the Patriot Act, these no longer apply to aliens who have been designated as special interest persons by the Attorney General or his designees (any FBI agent).

And yes, I speak from experience as an alien who had due process violated multiple times by Federal agents under the guise of the so-called Patriot Act.

[Edited 2004-06-14 19:58:40]
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
sllevin
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 3:47 am

The only way there could be an issue would be if you were wearing a pilot's uniform to the airport. These days, even my fairly-liberal self would argue that'[s just not a smart thing to do. Even if you are not abjecting doing anything to impersonate a pilot for the puproses of getting into secured areas, etc. etc., still, that's a reasonable flag for security.

As far as travelling with pilot gear, logs, maps, AFM's or military -1's -- there's no problem with that.

Steve
 
adriaticus
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 5:41 am

<< ...As a law enforcement officer in California I can only speak for my jurisdiction but I don't know of any Californina Penal Code you'd be violating by being in possession of the items you mentioned, assuming they weren't stolen or taken in a crime of any kind. That being said, if you were found to be in possession of those items and could not produce proper identification that would justify you having them, you can rest assured you'd raise my suspicion and I'd find a reason to detain you until the local Feds had a chance to talk to you. >>

Sounds, to say the least, very contradictory... Just what kind of "law enorcement official" takes interpretation of the right to freedom of any human being in his own hands, and upon his very own will or (mis)judgment, in grounds of "suspicion", interrupts free passage and wastes the time of the lawful posessor of legal aviation items? (and that, having just said that any penal code had been violated!!!) Just who the hey would admit such nonsense?

I am attorney with responsibilities over more than a dozen countries and legal systems. None of these allow for "law enforcement officials" to interfere with private persons' activities unless mandated by a judge or while a criminal offence is actually taking place, as they say, ("in fraganti")... Bottomline, in any of those countries would a "law enforcement official" be entitled to detain someone "until the feds", or anyone else for that matter, question him/her, just because the guy was "detected" out in the street wearing a funny-looking suit with gold ribbons...

I tell you, that repressive instrument called "patriot act" is the hardest blow to civil rights and freedoms the world has seen since Hitler and the Iron Curtain. So much for the land of the free. It is sad when the fine word "patriot" is used to mislead free will and legitimize/justify horrid violations of human, civil and even political rights... It is also a grim day when any kind of law enforcer justifies any violation to due process rights... no matter the excuse.

I wonder how long will it be before most of the citizens of the US start realizing what is going on around them...

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copter808
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:06 am

There should be no problem with purchasing or possessing any flight gear. As for the pilot uniform, that's already been discussed here. Your post didn't specify whether you were talking about an airline pilot uniform, or perhaps a military flight suit. As mentioned before, the airline pilot uniform would raise suspicion--same as a policeman's uniform. A military flight suit would probably cause fewer problems, particularly since they can be very practical if you're going to start flying. They may look silly, but the Nomex fire protection is well worth the cost. Same with flight helmets--expensive to purchase but well worth the cost in a crash.

There is no statute that I am aware of which would prevent you from buying/owning/possessing any of the above. If it was used in commission of a crime, then it would probably be illegal, but not otherwise.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 6:22 am

Just what kind of "law enorcement official" takes interpretation of the right to freedom of any human being in his own hands, and upon his very own will or (mis)judgment, in grounds of "suspicion", interrupts free passage and wastes the time of the lawful posessor of legal aviation items?

Welcome to the world of "Reasonable Suspicion" versus "Probable Cause". Courts regularly give police officers plenty of room on the former (the entire concept of "Terry Stops" is built around individual officer judgement vis-a-vis RS). When you combine this with the Patriot Act provisions for indefinite detention sans specific charges, you have a very potent and dangerous mix brewing.

Before anyone things I'm cop bashing, you couldn't be farther from the truth. I worked 3 years for a Law Enforcement Agency in Georgia while I was in college and I'm well aware of the frustrations that due process imposes upon field work. I've seen felony cases thrown out of court on technicalities and it doesn't get any more frustrating than that. I've also seen and experienced firsthand what happens in the absence of due process. The way to get through this is by having a well structured comprehensive system for enforcement. When the system is cobbled together using a bunch of half-baked laws and jurisdictions like it is right now, there are far more cracks and loopholes for things to slip through.

Sorry for going this far off topic, but I felt it was relevant to the discussion. Back to Nudelhirsch's question, while there is no reason why any of that is illegal and possesion of those does not constitute probable cause in itself, when combined with other elements of the circumstance they may be discovered under they might indeed be construed as such and hence I would reccomend that you not proceed with acquiring those unless you have a specific utility planned for them and can document it accordingly.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
AGrayson514
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 7:05 am

There are no laws in the United States that say that you cannot own these items. I own an Air Force pilot uniform, a navy uniform, and I have a few commercial aviation items such as hats and company shirts. I got the Air Force and Navy stuff from family members, and the other stuff from garage sales and eBay. While some people would prefer that you didn't, there is not formal law stating that you can't.

~ Andrew Grayson
Give a little bit...
 
itsjustme
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 8:43 am

Sounds, to say the least, very contradictory... Just what kind of "law enorcement official" takes interpretation of the right to freedom of any human being in his own hands, and upon his very own will or (mis)judgment, in grounds of "suspicion", interrupts free passage and wastes the time of the lawful posessor of legal aviation items? (and that, having just said that any penal code had been violated!!!) Just who the hey would admit such nonsense?

Very impressive, if not somewhat confusing verbiage. One of the great things about this board is the ability of those contributing to the topic to speak candidly and that's what I was doing when I replied to the original question about the legality of purchasing and possessing flight gear (by the way Nudelhirsch, the only thing you started here was some spirited discussion and that's one of the things that keeps this board interesting). I spoke in specifics pertaining to what my thought process and reaction would be should I come across someone possessing a commercial airline pilot's uniform who was not a commercial airline pilot. Just as I would think someone working in a uniform store would question why someone would walk in off the street and purchase a pilot's uniform (not generic flight gear, but an actual uniform), I stand by my original response that it would not be unreasonable to see that as "suspicious" and appropriate follow up would be warranted.





 
eclipseflight7
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 9:09 am

What I know is that I'm a British immigrant on an E-2 visa and I take flight training in America. I have a Jepp bag filled with all I need to know and I haven't had any problems with the government. Even though I am a pilot I still wouldn't see any problems with it. And besides, unless the government decides to undertake a raid of every house in the US, then why would they have any problem?

Yeah, I probably just lit the grill, so if you want to flame me for not being honest or something, just remember to flip me over after 10 minutes.
Holy sh*ts and burritos.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:24 am

Law enforcement actions have resulted in Supreme Court decisions that favored the accused. A local law enforcement officer is now in jail for taking bribes. Priests arrested for sexual abuse of young boys.

Get real. The threat is everywhere, not just in aviation. Can I own the uniform of a priest or police officer?
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
access-air
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 10:46 am

Well,
collecting such items as a hobby is fine. If you were buying these materials to do someone some harm, then there would be a problem. Still, law enforcement shouldn't stick their noses in where it DOES NOT belong. What I do as a hobby concerning airplanes is MY business. If I want to collect airline uniforms or pilots wings or bars or a shirt that's what I will collect.
Myself I collect maintenance manuals, aircraft manuals, I have couple of operation manuals for a couple of airlines, Heck I have the propeller hub Cone from a Cessna 402....So your buying pilots supplies is nothing. Anyone picking up a Sporty's magazine can order anything he wants.
The problem is not paranoia, its just that everyone nowadays wants to be a hero and have his 15 minutes of fame. Well, maybe paranoia is the problem. We are a nation of "Nervous Nellies" and we run and hide at every little thing that we don't understand. A sort of like shoot first, ask questions later kind of thing.
The patriot act is a scary thing and it does nothing to make me feel safe in this country we now live in. Little by little our individual rights are being taken away and people are rolling over like lame dogs because they Govenrment says its all for Homeland Security.
Sounds a little too much like Hitler and His fatherland.
Next thing you know the Govenrment will ban usage of Flight Sim games because it could potentially teach terroists how to fly planes....
On the other hand it can also help guys and gals that are interested in a military aviation career to get that much more excited and ready for it.

Just endulge in your hobby of collecting its what makes you happy...!!! One of our rights in this country is the pursuit of happiness!!!! So, Be happy!!!

Not sure that helped but I had to say something.

Access-Air
Remember, Wherever you go, there you are!!!!
 
jwenting
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 1:06 pm

Can I own the uniform of a priest or police officer?
Yes you can. But you can NOT go out on the street in that police uniform and behave in such a way as to give the appearance of actually being a police officer.

I don't think priestly robes and airline uniforms offer the same clauses, but you'd better be careful because at the least you may be due for civil charges for misrepresenting a professional group as well as possible criminal charges if you use that uniform to gain illegal entrance somewhere or to commit other crimes (like using those priestly robes to get people to pay you for absolution).
I wish I were flying
 
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scbriml
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RE: Legal To Own?

Tue Jun 15, 2004 11:43 pm

Don't any of you people ever go to FANCY DRESS PARTIES? Big grin
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
AGrayson514
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RE: Legal To Own?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:09 am

Oy, forgot about the patriot act...That might change things for you.

~ Andrew Grayson
Give a little bit...
 
VEEREF
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RE: Legal To Own?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 1:40 am

As far as I know it is not illegal to own the items, but if you were to say, go to the airport dressed in a uniform and were to be questioned, that would be something entirely different. There are numerous airline collectable trade shows here in the US each year, and you can get just about anything there.
So it's not really an issue of whether you have it or not, it's what you do with it. So Ebay to your heart's desire!
Airplanes are cool. Aviation sucks.

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