soaringadi
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SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:14 pm

I think that SQ shouldn't have gone on and just ordered the A380's in bulk, and become the 1st. customer to acquire them. I personally feel that they have made a mistake by doing so.... since the 380 has yet to take it's 1st. test flight.

What is your opinion on this ??

enjoY  Smile
If it ain't Boeing, I'm not going !
 
Andreas
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:22 pm

I suppose you don't think that ANA made an even bigger mistake by ordering the 7E7, which is even farer away from its first flight.  Yeah sure  Yeah sure  Yeah sure
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JGPH1A
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:26 pm

Somebody has to be the first to order an particular aircraft type, and usually with the difficulties of introducing a brand new type comes the additional PR value of operating a brand new highly publicised aircraft - its a trade off, but nobody ordering a brand new aircraft seriously anticipates that the thing won't be able to get off the ground. Airbus have been making excellent aircraft for many many years, they do have a clue what they're doing !
Young and beautiful and thin and gorgeous AND BANNED ! Cya at airspaceonline.com, losers
 
SailorOrion
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:18 pm

Just for all the doubters:

The A380 is currently:
1) On time
2) On budget
3) On weight

SailorOrion
 
zak
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:32 pm

well some people seem to be a bit bitter that the queen of the skies is soon to be european, i expect the number of postings regarding the a380 failure go up the closer we are to the first flight.
and you can bet all your money that a few weeks after the a380 has entered revenue service, someone with super secret sources will post on how the plane has big problems and the first airlines are thinking about a replacement with smaller boeing types.
10=2
 
PhilSquares
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:38 pm

Just for the record, the 380 is not on weight. It has been reported in both AW&ST and F.I. the weight problems the 380 is facing. In fact, according to those sources, the 380 will not make it's range/payload guarantees.
Fly fast, live slow
 
QANTAS077
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:45 pm

this thread is as big a blunder as the other you made about SQ quitting SQ 1 from SFO-SIN.

 Big grin
 
leelaw
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 5:48 pm

IMO SQ is one of few carriers that has ordered the A380 which currently has a route network with enough demand, capacity, and growth potential, and large enough hub to support its proposed fleet of ten a/c.
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
Joni
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:09 pm


PhilSquares,

IIRC in the newest or nearly newest it's reported the A380 is now achieving its weight target. I also remember that earlier there were weight issues, but those have now apparently been resolved.

 
BA
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 8:36 pm

I really don't understand the logic of this thread. There ALWAYS has to be someone to first order an aircraft. How else can it start?

Aircraft manufacturers always require a certain number of pre-orders before they go ahead with development. They need to ensure that they will recieve the necessary finances to cover the costs of development or else they will lose. This is also a way to determine the future demand of the aircraft. If they don't recieve enough orders, then that means there clearly isn't a market for the aircraft and thus they won't develop it at this time.

For the A380, they recieved enough pre-orders and this means that development is viable. That's why it is under development, because SQ and other carriers showed enough interest for the aircraft.

This has been true for almost every airliner ever developped. What's so different this time? Because it's too big? C'mon people.......let's not act like how the general public acted over Howard Hughes' HK-1 Hercules "Spruce Goose."

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
MD80Nut
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 10:39 pm

Sorry, this doesn't make any sense. The aircraft has yet to fly and that's why it's a mistake? I guess Panam made a horrible mistake ordering that useless hog the 747 before it flew, and I guess they made an even bigger mistake when they ordered the lousy 707 and DC-8 before they flew. British Airways and Eastern absolutely went bozo by ordering the crappy 757 before it flew. And United blundered when they ordered the piece of shit 777 before it flew?  Yeah sure

Jeez....

cheers, Ralph

[Edited 2004-06-16 15:42:20]
Fly Douglas Jets DC-8 / DC-9 / DC-10 / MD80 / MD11 / MD90 / 717
 
SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Wed Jun 16, 2004 11:49 pm

I think the major blunder is not selecting enough.

Though I personally have been critical of an airline like EK having 45 A380s, it does make sense.

SIA routes are long-haul when it comes to the 747. So it does make sense to embrace a universal long-haul product à la MEGATOP but GIGATOP instead. People would not be happy flying a 747 from LHR - SIN when they know that one of the three daily flights is an A380 and they could have been on that.

SIA has enough product differentiation for one to cringe at. With the introduction of the A380 there will be even more.

A more likely approach would be to introduce a surcharge on A380 flights however to mark the differences in product.

However, I'd rather have 40 A380s than about 15 + a bunch of 773ERs and MEGATOPS.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
iowa744fan
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:55 am

Hmmm....let me think....SQ probably received a great deal (very large as reported from some sources), they have routes that could easily support the additional capacity of this aircraft (SIN to: LHR, SFO, SYD, etc.), and if performance claims made by Airbus are correct, they likely stand to make a bit of money with the 380....yeah....what were they thinking....what idiots!  Big grin
 
boeingbus
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 1:03 am

This is nonsense... you have nothing there to support why they made an error. Please share some specifics???

SQ got a fantastic deal.... If the A380 proves itself this will be the best thing for SQ... Most likely they wouldnt buy a Boeing 747 for the price they paid for the A380... so why not go for the added volume and efficiencies???

If the A380 does not live to its expectations they will discard them like they did with the A343.
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:48 am

3) On weight

That's interesting... considering that just about every report since mid-2003 states that weight is higher than expected.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
Shamrock_747
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:58 am

SQ currently has 744s grounded. I really don't see the need for an airline that can't even fill its current 747 fleet to get brand new A380s.

"People would not be happy flying a 747 from LHR - SIN when they know that one of the three daily flights is an A380 and they could have been on that."

I have do disagree. Average pax are not aviation enthusiasts. They don't care (and probably don't know) which type of aircraft they are on.
 
jaysit
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:10 am

"That's interesting... considering that just about every report since mid-2003 states that weight is higher than expected."

And considering that they havent factored this report in, we will be having a fat overweight bird made even more overweight !

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040616/ap_on_he_me/fit_obesity&e=1

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Northwest717
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 3:14 am

Dude, this person was just trying to ask a question/air his opinion! You don't immediately have to lash out with a Boeing comparison. That is truly uncalled for! It is nice that somebody like JGPH1A could answer in an adult fashion, rather than quickly jumping to a Boeing comparison, or starting an argument. Just my $.02.

-Tim
Dubai: Center of the 21st Century
 
roseflyer
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:20 am

The original post said nothing about how the plane will be a failure. He just implied that it might not be worth it for SIA to be the first customer and go through some of the teething issues. The A380 will probably have a number of problems in the beginning just like the 747 did. Airbus is probably better prepared, but it might cost a lot of money for SIA. They just went through the expense with the A345 by operating it on short routes in preparation for the long hauls. Hopefully the experiences that SQ learned there will help them introduce the new fleet type successfully. Their network can definitely handle the plane, but it might be difficult at first due to issues related to an entirely new airplane that is larger than anything else. Once ground crews, FAs etc get accustomed to the new plane, it should work fine, but it will be difficult in the beginning.

I agree with JGPH1A in that the press of the new plane will help counter the extra costs of being the first customer. It is a tradeoff that the airline will hopefully benefit from, and I am sure that the people at the top of SQ have thought it out thoroughly. I think that SQ is the right type of airline to be the first customer. It is a decent financial position, and has the flexibility to succeed.
If you have never designed an airplane part before, let the real designers do the work!
 
Ex_SQer
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:24 am

SQ currently has 744s grounded. I really don't see the need for an airline that can't even fill its current 747 fleet to get brand new A380s.

This doesn't mean that there is no role for the A380 in SQ. The A380 isn't a straightforward 744 replacement - it will be used on high density routes where (1) current bilaterals do not allow for more frequencies and/or (2) slot restrictions mean the airline is unable to secure slots at desirable times. HKG-SFO and NRT-LAX would be examples of the former, and LHR an example of the latter.

Bear in mind that the 744 is actually on its way out. SQ's strategy for other high density routes is to increase flight frequencies with smaller aircraft where bilaterals and slots allow.
 
gigneil
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 4:34 am

A more likely approach would be to introduce a surcharge on A380 flights however to mark the differences in product.

However, I'd rather have 40 A380s than about 15 + a bunch of 773ERs and MEGATOPS.


But that would be awful business, a) to surcharge and b) to fly a 550 seat plane when a 300 seat plane would do.

N
 
zak
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:13 am

"I have do disagree. Average pax are not aviation enthusiasts. They don't care (and probably don't know) which type of aircraft they are on."

i have to disagree on that.the a380 will have floorspace for a vast amount of pax but will initially have a certification limit of 550 pax. that is why you can expect to see chat areas like on SQ's 345 on the A380.
one might say that "airlines could do that now but instead they fill planes up with seats". i fully agree but that does not take into account that the A380 would seat up to 600+pax in a normal 3 class layout if filled with seats. so expect alot better service/legroom/bar areas in comparison to normal planes on the A380. that is something pax will notice and want, aviation nut or not, especially since airlines flying the A380 will not be shy about promoting that.
10=2
 
Ruscoe
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:38 am

The weight is only on target because Airbus keep raising the target.

Airbus have said themselves the plane is overweight and that the MTOW has to be increased to provide the guarenteed payload/range.

These extra weights makes it less eficient, but according to Airbus only about !% less. If this is all it is,then should,t be a problem, because its efficiency margins over the 747 are a lot more than that, provided you can fill it.

Ruscoe

 
Bofredrik
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:47 am

One of this anti-european (anti Airbus) posts that we have seen so many of here.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 6:54 am

Bofredrick,
It's not anti European to ask legitimate questions.

IMO being the launch customer for any aircraft is risky, and that is why launch customers usually get big discounts, and why the original question is ok.
Ruscoe
 
VSXA380X800
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:26 am

This kind of reminds me of a parent that would love to see their child succeed and as soon as a much stronger competitor comes along, they have no other resources but to bash the obviously stronger competitor just to make them selves feel better by bringing up the smallest things up

At first I thought that the 380 being over overweight rumors was a big deal but I've yet to find no obvious sign of the 380 being overweight. It isn't really a BIG deal. I was reading a Q & A debate between two people and in the conversation, they mention A380 being over weighted. Then they mentioned the 777 airframe being over weighted compared to the 330/340's. So just read this

Check this out
http://www.geocities.com/khlim777_my/aswhy777.htm


Make sure that you read ALL of it.
4 decks 4 engines 4 long haul
 
cjuniel
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:26 am

I have to agree with the statement regarding the average flier not being an aviation enthusiast. Most people don't give a damn what kind of plane they are on, as long as it gets them from Point A to Point B in a reasonable amount of time. Further, I anticipate there will be masses of people scared to board a plane that large.

As far as Singapore goes, it is hard to say whether or not it was a "mistake" for them to order the A380. Singapore is in a very interesting position, as the very small city state sits in SE Asia very close to the equator. Even Hong Kong and Taipei are flights of 3-5 hours duration. As Southeast Asia continues to catch up with Singapore and Hong Kong, demand for flights between major cities in that area is only going to increase. I anticipate some of the aircraft will be used to fly to places like London, Los Angeles and San Francisco, but I think a good number of the flights will be "regional" flying in Southeast Asia, in which case, it does make sense for them to fly one A380 instead of 2 777's.

Just my 2 cents.
 
snnams
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:43 am

Is it just me or does anyone else notice the increased number of these threads questioing the A380 over the last number of weeks?

I wonder if Boeing is paying some of these people? "Say it enough times and it eventually becomes the truth" kind of scenario?  Wink/being sarcastic

Sorry to anyone asking legitimate and important questions, but every issue mentioned here has been done to death on these fora. The thread title may be different, but it always end up stuck on the same issues!

It is a sad day for the industry we love when the quest to innovate is scorned at as it is here day after day: be it increased size (A380) or better fuel economy (7E7)

The amazing co-incidence of threads (SQ cutting SFO: surely a candidate for SQ A380 service, and "did they make a blunder with the A380") leads me to suspect sinister goings on...

I apologise most sincerely to the poster whose intention is most probably genuine and sincere, but you must realise why someone might interpret this negatively?

[Edited 2004-06-17 01:03:12]
 
StarCruiser
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:18 am

While I haven't a clue as to why certain airlines will order large numbers of the A380 I look forward to reading and talking about those orders in these fora. Hey, I don't run an airline, so why would I know? I'm just an aviation enthusiast and have been since I was a young lad.

There are bugs in any new creation. They will be worked out in time. In the meantime I am eager to see who will order what and speculate on where they will fly those new a/c. I am not into an A vs. B war or any other kind. I hope both companies do extremely well as many passengers and countries will depend upon their products.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 8:19 am

You know you picked the wrong subject to attack Boeing Snnams.
There is no other way to describe Airbus statements lately than desparate.

The latest revealing comments from Airbus senior management relate to Boeing not being on the right track with 50%+ composites. All these comments show is that airbus does not have the technology to match Boeing in this area, (and it is the future), and they have been caught completely off guard by the interest in the 7e7, at the expense of interest in the 330 and to a lesser extent the 380.

Independent confirmation of this can be sen in the 380 structure itself. The upper fuselage centre section is made of aluminium not composites as is the rest of the upper fuselage. I can only presume Airbus does not have the confidence in directionally strengthened composites, to build this high stress area out of composite also.

However what really sets the two manufacturers apart is their philosophy about the way future air travel will develop, and this is were the 7e7 really trumps Airbus.
Airbus are working on the future being hub and spoke, hence the need for large aircraft like the 380. And their are some carriers who definetly need a larger hub and spoke craft like SQ & QF.
Boeing are saying the major growth will occurr between smaller points. This obviously requies more smaller aircraft. Until the 7e7 there has been no aircraft which could provide the economies to do this. This is what has got Airbus really worried. The 7e7 can bypass hubs and at a cost which makes it competitive not only with 330 sized aircraft but 380 size also. Just to add insult to injury, whilst Airbus is quite capable of developing the technology, they are tied up in 380 development, with essentially no substantial free development money apart from the 380. This is one of the reasons you repeatedly hear questions raised about the decision to build the 380 rather than trump Boeing, by say developing a 320 and 300 replacement aircraft early.

Ruscoe
 
Hirnie
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 11:04 am

Sorry slightly off topic:
"However what really sets the two manufacturers apart is their philosophy about the way future air travel will develop, and this is were the 7e7 really trumps Airbus."
About the philosophy right. About 7e7 triumphing airbus wrong!
Airtravel in the next decades will be based on hub and spoke as well as on point to point service. So the 7e7 won`t put Airbus into a corner Boeing did with MD.

SQ has the network for the A380 and will for sure still have it when the A380 is going to be delivered. They will be pretty happy with it because they can increase capacity on certain routes without increasing frequency. No question that in the beginning of service there will occur failures in some minor systems, but this is normal when introducing a new aircraft...

my 2 cents
 
N766UA
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 12:49 pm

You can't say that ordering an airplane is a blunder.... that's ridiculous, but to say that the A380 is on time and on target with weight is inacurate. The A380 is overweight according to several sources including AW&ST and also some departments are a few months behind schedule. Now I'm not saying there's anything wrong with this, but don't post inaccurate info as fact.
This Website Censors Me
 
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RayChuang
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RE: SQ Made A Blunder Selecting 380?

Thu Jun 17, 2004 2:53 pm

I think SQ did make a right choice with the A380-800.

You have to remember some of their most popular routes (SIN to LHR, SIN to NRT and SIN to SFO via HKG) are getting to the point they can use the A388 right now. This is why I'm glad that SFO will be one of the first airports that will be be able to support the A388. Big grin