SHUPirate1
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UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:23 pm

People have mentioned that United may have to shrink part of their operation in order to survive, and I ask where they should cut. Needless to say, ORD (for obvious reasons) and DEN (their second-largest hub) aren't going anywhere...SFO, a key to their Asian operation, likely isn't going anywhere either. On the other hand, LAX is somewhat redundant (although it is UA's only warm-weather hub, UA has a larger international operation at SFO, and the LAX market is very competitive) and IAD is in a somewhat isolated situation, as there isn't the feed into IAD that there is into ORD, and a lot of the European flights overfly IAD in favor of departing from ORD, making it redundant. Granted, Dulles is United's only East-coast hub, but with only a few dozen mainline flights from IAD to places east of the Mississippi, and the challenge that will be coming up known as Independence Air, they might be better off simply writing the East Coast off, and using their Star Alliance partner, namely US Airways, for the East Coast market...I'd be interested to see responses, which hub is United more likely to shut down, LAX or IAD?
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
rjpieces
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:27 pm

I wouldn't call LAX a hub for UA. That said, I don't think they can maintian IAD, especially after losing the feed from Independence Air. I think it would be wise to move their international ops to ORD and let US take over some of the East Coast market.

UA needs to start thinking about restructuring their operations and IAD seems the perfect hub to start with.
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
wdleiser
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:28 pm

I think UAL will wait and see what happends first with US. If US goes under... IAD airtravel may increase.
 
StevenUhl777
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:30 pm

I would bet LAX. Then, depending on what happens with I-air (seems to be up in the air, no pun intended, as to whether or not they will make it themselves) and then revisit the IAD hub ONLY if they ABSOLUTELY have to.

Personally, I'd drop the south american flights and focus on Europe, Asia, and the Caribbean. But then again, I'm just an armchair CEO.
And the winner for best actress is....REESE WITHERSPOON for 'Walk the Line'!!!!!!!!
 
N670UW
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:31 pm

I wouldn't call LAX a hub for UA.

It's a hub. Straight from Investor Relations:

"UAL Corporation is the holding company for United Airlines, the second largest air carrier in the world. With hubs in Chicago, Denver, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Washington, D.C., and key international gateways in Tokyo, London, Frankfurt, Miami and Toronto, United flies to 109 destinations in 23 countries. United's 65,000-plus employees worldwide bring people together safely, conveniently and efficiently more than 1,800 times a day. United's customers also enjoy access to more than 700 destinations around the world through Star Alliance, the leading global airline network"
 
CALMSP
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 1:54 pm

I would love to have us (CO) take over some pacific routes out of LAX, or even move some flights into LAX, the only bd thing is that F9 & HP seem to be jumping in over there.
 
777ualsfo
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:45 pm

I agree - drop IAD, move the european flights to ORD and abandon IAD completely. If that isn't enough, would close DEN and stick with profitable international, transcon, and some TED for shorter leisure trips.
 
DLKAPA
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 4:24 pm

I agree - drop IAD, move the european flights to ORD and abandon IAD completely. If that isn't enough, would close DEN and stick with profitable international, transcon, and some TED for shorter leisure trips.

Drop DEN? Yeah right! That will never happen, and here's why:

DEN is UA's second largest hub, and it's making UA money (ok, as UA goes, they aren't making any money, but you get the point). UA was the only airline to survive the "Hub Wars" of the mid '80s, forcing out the old Frontier and Continental, and for a very long time they were the only hub out at DIA until the new Frontier began their rapid expansion.

Denver is also UA's leisure hub, and TED's home base. Why would they close a hub that is the home of their leisure airline? That makes absolutely no sense. You say you want TED for shorter leisure hops, well, if they closed DEN, THERE WOULD BE NO TED!!!
And all at once the crowd begins to sing: Sometimes the hardest thing and the right thing are the same
 
IAD777
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 6:09 pm

why is everyone suggesting abandoning IAD completely? The Bulk of United's European operations are out of IAD, including newly inagurated service to ZRH. They also have flights to Buenos Aires and Rio and Sao Paolo as well as new carribean flights, not to mention the plehtora of transcon services. Makes no sense to cut and run from IAD.

US can't really take over their east coast market because US is more of an intra-east coast carrier. UA is not an east coast regional airline from DC, they are a int'l, and transcon carrier from DC (including cities outside of the north-east like den, chicago etc)

I hope UA stays in DC, they've been part of Dulles for years and it would be a shame to cut and run.
History shall be kind to me; for I intend to write it -WSC
 
AirframeAS
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:00 pm

I wouldnt necessarly close any hubs, it wouldnt be a wise idea right now.If I were to chose which hubs to scale back service, it would more likely be IAD. Just cut the service down, sit back and see what happens with US. As far as LAX....thats a good hub to keep for transpac routes via HNL.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
cjuniel
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:26 pm

Are you people sniffing glue? Since when did ANY of UA's European flights overfly Dulles? United serves ALL of their European destinations from Dulles. There are a few flights from Chicago to London, Paris and Frankfurt, but Dulles is United's PREMIER transatlantic gateway. Having a transatlantic gateway on the east coast allows optimum feed due to the fact that your customers don't really have to backtrack, just to fly east. There is no way in hell United is going to shutter the IAD hub. Add to that it is now the base of operations for their South American flying. United is the only big three airline with a hub in the National Capital area, and unless they liquidate (which I hope they wont), they wont be leaving DC anytime soon. As far as Denver, Denver, while it doesn't have the international flying of the rest of the United hubs is a moneymaker. As are Chicago and San Francisco. If they downgrade a hub, it will be LAX, and what they will do is downgrade it from a hub to a focus city. With the exception of Tokyo and London, there isn't the international flying from LAX that there was in the late 90's when United flew to Hong Kong, Osaka, and I believe Taipei and Seoul also (I could be wrong about the last two) from LAX. They haven't significantly increased their LAX operation since it gained the designator as "hub", so that's where I would expect them to go.
 
luv2fly
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:34 pm

IMHO - I could see UA make both LAX and to a lesser degree IAD, more of a focus city than a true hub and spoke operation. IAD I could see become a smaller hub, especially if Indy does well as that is going to hurt them. Although like others have or will point out Indy by no means will offer the destinations that UA does or will. Whatever happens it will be a interesting ride.
You can cut the irony with a knife
 
AirframeAS
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:35 pm

Forgot to add in my post #9: Cut back service DOMESTICALLY, not internationally. Closing hubs wouldnt be wise either.

Like I said, cut back service domestically.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
Danny
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:37 pm

Move more operations to ORD??? Are you guys serious? ORD is a nightmare right now already. They invested in new UEX facilities at IAD so I think and hope they'll keep it. All ACA express flights were will be replaced by other carriers so I Air is not a factor.
 
4jaded
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:47 pm

I have a feeling that UA based upon its situation with US would likely shutter IAD before LAX. The east coast is already so overserved by everyone that UA pulling the plug would be a minor bump in the road. On the other hand LAX is very well developed has a larger base of residents and limited opprotunities for growth amoung other airlines due to the facilities availible. UA has a large facilitiy there and could add additional flights easily. Lax just makes more sense.
 
Lindy
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 9:49 pm

4jaded you haven't been to IAD didn't you?

From your post it sounds like UAL at IAD is like US at LAX.

Rafal
BWIADCA - Nikon D100
 
4jaded
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:13 pm

I have been to IAD and I am aware that currently UA is the top dog. My point is that overall IAD service could be easily picked up by others where as at LAX the process is not that simple.
 
moose1226
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 10:35 pm

To all those who say that Indy Air will kill off UA at IAD:

Go here: http://www.flyi.com/too-destinations.htm

How many of these destinations are served by UA (mainline)? Not many.

I-Air may force UA to lower fares on the flights operated by the regional partners, but Independence is not attacking UA's international flights, and is competing with UA mainline domestic service very little (at least until they get the 319's).

I think that IA and UA can coexist peacefully, at least for now.
 
CALMSP
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Fri Jun 18, 2004 11:18 pm

UAL did not force CO out of DEN, there were other leading factors that was behind the reasoning. One was the city of Denver.
 
UA744KSFO
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:02 am

Neither of the two should or will be dropped
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:14 am

Some of you people are SO funny. What an absolute riot this is!
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
RHSNYC
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 2:35 am

UA more Likely To Close LAX or IAD? All this conjecture and high speculation is preposterous!!! UAL only just received news of no loan guarantee and you guys are already making up stories of hubs closing - Boy, we do have too much time on our hands!!
 
stirling
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:06 am

If you get a paper-cut on your finger, do you cut off your arm?
Think about it....then let this thread die a quick and silent death....

NEXT!!

And what's up will all those A.Net sucks threads????? What a waste of bandwith!!!
Delete this User
 
gigneil
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:10 am

That said, I don't think they can maintian IAD, especially after losing the feed from Independence Air.

They're replacing it 1:1.

N
 
965004
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:10 am

UAL I believe, stopped flying from MIA to South America in favor of Star Alliance partner, Varig. They opted to sly south via IAD, if they leave IAD, does that mean they will only fly to South America from ORD, or will they sell that network in similar fashion that Pan Am sold its Asian routes to UAL in the mid 1980's?
 
Cubsrule
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:53 am

965004- Everything I have read indicated that UA closed the crew base in MIA and moved the South America flights to IAD because it was stupid to have a base of that size open anywhere. The MIA base was only providing crew for the 763s to GRU, GIG, and EZE. This was a poor use of resources, and combined with the lack of connecting opportunities present at MIA, it made more sense to feed these flights through a hub and leave the O&D traffic to RG. To answer your question, I can't imagine that UA would abandon these routes; perhaps they would start service ex. DEN.
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
baw2198
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:19 am

IAD would be the better choice since not many flights originate out of there that make a lot of money for united other than being a quick link back to ORD. If united had to keep an east coast airport, I'd say they move the IAD operation to PIT. They could feed USair from there. Having the operation at PIT would free up ORD big time. Keep ORD for the big stuff going overseas and transcons and limited RJ's for local runs. PIT would be for everything else, mainly just RJ's and some bigger equipment. Actually you would kill 2 birds with one stone in this case. United would increase traffic flow and decongest ORD which would free up the system greatly. If united stays at IAD its only going to hurt them in the long run with independence air starting, jetblue, and southwest.
"And remember, Keep your stick on the ice"--->Red Green
 
L.1011
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:30 am

If I were United, I'd drop SFO and move it all down to LAX. More population and consistantly better flying weather.
 
japanfan3
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:30 am

Close IAD?!? Not in our lifetimes! IAD is a BIG European gateway, if anything UA should close LAX and code share with other star carriers.
 
flashmeister
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:59 am

If UA had to choose one today, it'd be tough.

IAD would be an easy one to pull back from, if UA could:
- Move 'open-skies' routes from IAD to PHL, and leverage US.
- Drop or idle non-movable route authorities from IAD
- Get US to bump up PHL transcons - add PDX, increase frequencies to SEA/SFO/LAX/PHX

LAX would be easy since UA is quickly playing a lower role to AS, WN, and others to an extent.

The problems are these:
- Can UA walk away from routes at IAD that they can't move to PHL?
- Can UA rely on US?
- Can UA walk away from LAX considering that UA is a dominant western carrier?
 
moose1226
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:06 am

If united stays at IAD its only going to hurt them in the long run with independence air starting, jetblue, and southwest.

WN doesn't fly out of IAD. Their nearest destination is BWI, which is almost 50 miles from IAD. While there is a great share of the market which will go to IAD or BWI, whichever is cheaper, there is also a segment (namely northern Virginia) which would much rather travel from IAD (or DCA for that matter). WN is not the biggest threat to UA in Washington. Also, UA is constantly adding flights at IAD, (ZRH and SJO come to mind) so I don't think the hub is going anywhere! Long live UA, IA, and IAD!  Big grin
 
kl911
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:24 am

I don't think they'll close IAD. Washington attracts big numbers of high yield business/first class politicians of all European countries. Leisure might be low, but who cares when first and business are full?
 
flashmeister
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 9:44 am

Washington attracts big numbers of high yield business/first class politicians of all European countries.

If UA really wants this market, then they have to develop a premium product that is competitive with other International carriers. They haven't done that. Other carriers are consistently rated higher.
 
airways6max
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:12 am

It sounds like IAD should be closed, based on the above article. However, maybe because United didn't develop IAD as much as they should is part of the reason they're in the hole now financially. IAD could have been a very profitable hub for European services, but now we'll never know.
 
UAMAYBACH1239
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:14 am

IAD would go first. A more likely scenario, would be UA cutting streamline flts into and out of dulles. IAD being fed thru the hubs only.(SFO,LAX,AND CURRENT: Denver - International (DEN / KDEN), USA - Colorado">DEN, AND ORD). for the European flts. If UA pulls out of IAD further down the line after a recovery they could easily rebuild there presence. LAX is not as forgiving.
Even today they make sure either Flts to the big island are parked at terminal 6, because it is controlled by DOA first come first serve basis. Also UA has exclusive contracts out of L.A. with E.S.P.N. and FOX sports.
a/c flown 737-222/322/522 757/747-1-2-4, 767-2-3, 777-2-3, A319-20, DC10-10-30, L1011-3-5, 727-222adv, MD85-90 flyourfri
 
moose1226
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:43 am

Why should the UA IAD hub be closed? And why do you guys talk like it is inevitable? You have no evidence to suggest that either of the hubs will be closed, or that IAD will go first.

A Side Note: If you look at the location of the people on this thread, most of them (including myself) are near one of the two cities. This is kind of funny to read.
 
COSPN
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:49 am

If I were United, I'd drop SFO and move it all down to LAX. More population and consistantly better flying weather.

Good one L1011 SFO is delay prone and Expensive...sorry bay Area People,,IF you "cut" a big bay in any city it would be expensive..Move to LAX
 
UA744KSFO
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:05 pm

I hear a lot of you saying that UA should cut SFO in favour of LAX. Well, other than the fact that LAX is a craphole, SFO is very important to UA's operations and always has been.
 
InnocuousFox
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:17 pm

SFO is far closer to trans-pacific destinations as well. Even to Hawaii.

Enough of this crap, though... none of them are going to be flat out "cut".
Dave Mark - Intrinsic Algorithm - Reducing the world to mathematical equations!
 
gigneil
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:21 pm

If united had to keep an east coast airport, I'd say they move the IAD operation to PIT.

What? Washington is the 4th largest metro area in the US, and the US' 3rd largest gateway to Europe. I think not.

IAD would be the better choice since not many flights originate out of there that make a lot of money for united other than being a quick link back to ORD

United flies a great deal of lucrative, high yield routes from Washington as a result of extremely strong O/D.

N
 
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airzim
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:34 pm

If we see UA trim their fleet varieties rather than hubs per se, I think you are likely to see the 744's go, ergo flights to OZ, the only reason I can see for them keeping those birds in the fleet, will go. Everything else, due to schedule realignment and destination cuts, can be flown with 767's and 777's.

Trans-pac flights are actually quite low yield sectors, at least that is the case with most Asian based carriers. The loads are definately there but the fares are junk. I wouldn't be surprised if many of the NRT services are trimmed back, and UA focuses on by-passing NRT for direct services to Asia where the 777 can reach, and drop most of the NRT-Asian feeder flights.

Just speculation
 
gigneil
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 12:43 pm

Trans-pac flights are actually quite low yield sectors, at least that is the case with most Asian based carriers.

For Asian carriers, yes.

UA and NW offer their service at a VASTLY lower per unit cost than JL or NH, which is why they do so well even with Japanese customers to onward Asian destinations.

NW and UA maintain profitability across the Pacific as long as they right-size to demand, which NW has done better than UA historically.

N
 
captover
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:11 pm

If UA ever dropped IAD, IAD would be jumped on in an instant by another airline for a trans Atlantic hub. Maybe NW or AA?
 
SHUPirate1
Topic Author
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 1:19 pm

Captover-Why couldn't United actually try and make it seem like they have an interest in IAD though? Once Independence has their full-scale operation in place, Dulles is going to be as Dull-as any airport in the world...people are going to think that the Regional Jet was born in Stirling, Virginia, not some factory in Canada, Brazil, or anywhere else...
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
captover
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:36 pm

i didn't say they couldn't. I don't want to see UA leave IAD.
 
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legacyins
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:40 pm

UA is not or will not close its' SFO base in favor of LA. UA just signed a 15 year lease extension on its' maintenance base and terminal facilities. It is all spelled out under the reorganization under chapter 11.
 
747firstclass
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:53 pm

First of all it sounds like a number of people are missing a good point. It is always quite possible that I Air will not succeed at all. In yesterdays print editiion of The Washington Post there was, I am told, an article saying why it is quite possible that I Air will not succeed.
If that is the case and turns out to be true, than in the long run, which may not be such a long run, UA will survive at IAD. Also there is the extremely precarious situation with US. So if UA can hang on, it might even be exisiting in a world witout I Air and US. Time will tell.
 
atcboy73
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RE: UA: More Likely To Close LAX Or IAD?

Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:04 pm

I always find myself wondering if UA makes money at IAD year round. My guess is IAD-SFO, LAX, ORD and DEN are good routes year round but do they make money on everything else for the entire year?

If the Atlantic routes, and other domestic routes from IAD only make money in the spring and summer, but not enough to pay for them year round I would drop them all, with the exception of routes to the other bases, SFO, LAX, ORD and DEN.

Then I would use all the RJs and other a/c (from IAD) through out the fleet and try to eliminate an aircraft type that was redundant. Maybe the 733s or the 767-200s.

Just trying to eliminate unprofitable flying and an aircraft type to reduce costs overall.



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