a380900
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5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:04 am

Question to the GA pilots around here. I am planning a trip in a Cessna 172 in the US. Is it possible to have two adults and three children (around 10 years old) if we are well below the MTOW? What are the risks?

Thanks.

[Edited 2004-06-24 19:07:49]
 
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airportugal310
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:08 am

Risks:

No seatbelt for one of the three kids. Obvious why that is a risk!

Possible to fit 5, But not comfy! I have yet to be able to stick 4 in one, but that is only because I weigh 250 pounds....

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luisca
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:11 am

I still dont have my PPL but i do have a student licence,so dont bash me if i am wrong. you could be below MTOW, but the back seat only has tow seat belts, and i think that the airplane is only certified for four passanger. Also, if the weight of the children exceeds the weight of you and the pilot, and you are carriying luggage, your CG could be aft of the approved range. But if it is legal i dont think MTOW would be a huge problem as long as you dont take a lot of fuel
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Cessna172RG
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:19 am

The 172, in the standard non-retractable version, can fly two adults and one passenger in the back without having to alter your fuel capacity. However, pilots have told me, and from what I have read a few years back from "Flying" magazine, is that you will be pretty lucky to get two adults up front and only one passenger in the rear. And that is to meet your W/B calculations...

If you load up the "backseat" too much, you will alter your C of G and your plane will be unbalanced.

When I take my wife and my sister flying, my wife sits in the back, as she weighs less than my sister. My wife is Japanese, so she is darned skinny, but my sister, albeit 9 years age difference, is almost the same weight as me, about 70 kilos.
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a380900
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:25 am

The weight and balance would of course comply with the operating handbook.
 
citationjet
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:28 am

According to the FAA Type Certificate Data Sheet for the 172, you can legally only carry 4 people, unless the plane has the optional child jump seat per the Equipment List.
Unless your plane is configured with the optional child jump seat, the risk is not being legal.
Reference to TCDS:
http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/MainFrame?OpenFrameSet
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
a380900
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:12 am

Where can one find this jumpseat? I've looked on google and it seems that the jumpseat for 172 is nowhere to be found.
 
citationjet
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:43 am

I am not sure where you can find one. The 172s built before 1985 had the third seat as an option. According to my sources, it was a fairly popular option.
When the 172s restarted production in the mid 1990s, this third seat was not an option, because of the difficulty in meeting the new dynamic seat requirements (FAR 23.562).
Therefore, to find a 172 with a child's seat, it will have to be built in 1985 or earlier. Personally I have not seen many 172s with these seats.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:50 am

My advice would be to look for a Cessna 182 to rent as opposed to a 172. I've seen many more of these with the third-row child seat, plus that airplane has a lot of available power. As it is a high-performance aircraft, though, you'd have to be properly certified. Not sure how the JAA/FAA conversion works there.
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a380900
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 4:46 am

Unfortunately, I am checked out only on a 172.
 
N766UA
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:17 am

Is the kid small and well behaved? Throw him in the cargo compartment  Big thumbs up. But really, if it doesnt affect weight and balance much, only the lack of the seatbelt restricts you. And, after all, only the pilot is required by law to wear a belt in GA aircraft. I wouldn't advise it though.
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citationjet
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:28 am

Only the pilot is required to wear a seat belt??

FAR 91.107 states that each person on board a U.S. registered civil aircraft must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing.

If there is no seat, there should be no person.
Boeing Flown: 701,702,703;717;720;721,722;731,732,733,734,735,737,738,739;741,742,743,744,747SP;752,753;762,763;772,773.
 
N766UA
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:30 am

I'll have to go dig up the FAR but I know there's something in there either excluding passengers or some other such thing. Pilots are only required to wear them during takeoff, landing, and taxi.
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jadedmonkeys
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:51 am

I'm pretty sure the FARs state that Pilots are supposed to wear safety belts at all times they are in their stations and shoulder harnesses as well during takeoffs, landings, and taxiing. The passengers are only required to wear both the safety belts and shoulder harnesses during taxiing, takeoffs and landing but not during cruise. As for your 3 children in the back, you have three things to worry about, the 172 is not certified for 5 people, the seatbelt law regarding passengers and weight balance.
 
jadedmonkeys
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:59 am

Alright I found a couple of loop holes. In FAR 91.107, If your child is under 2 years old, an adult who is occupying an approved seat can hold the child. Also It states that the person can sit on the floor if they're going to engage in some kind of sport parachuting, so if your child is under 2 years of age or would like to jump out the 172 at 14,000 MSL then you're good to go!
 
a380900
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:06 am

Thanks Jademonkey. I don't know if the child is good at free falling. I'm going to check it out.
 
N766UA
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:06 am

You know what, damn FARs couldn't just make it cut and dry they had to make all kinds of exceptions and differences. I'm lost.
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jadedmonkeys
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:38 am

You're welcome A380900, as for the FARs well, what do you expect from the FAA? It's their job to be as vague as possible cause if not, everyone will pass their written exam. }= ^ />

As for the jumpseat... Where the heck do you fit that jumpseat in the cramped 172?
 
eclipseflight7
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:00 am

The next aircraft you should get checked on is the 210. 6 seats in 3 rows.
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jadedmonkeys
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:09 am

or even a Piper Saratoga will do, or the new Piper 6X
 
canoecarrier
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:10 am

I worked at a regional airport for years in college. A guy there owned a 150 with a bench seat in the back. He would routinely take his wife and kid (not an infant) up in it with him. It didn't look safe at all to me.

Seems like a similar situation here, you might be able to do it, but is it safe.
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L-188
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 7:19 am

A 172 to a 182 isn't that much of a jump, might be the simpler option to take the check ride.
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Av8trxx
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5 In A C172? Don't Go There!

Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:43 am

5 people in a 172?!?!?

172 or 182, they can only take 4 pax (excluding the lap child under 2 thing).
Five people in a 172 is NOT legal nor is it safe! That could be considered a violation of § 91.13 "Careless or reckless operation (a) Aircraft operations for the purpose of air navigation. No person may operate an aircraft in a careless or reckless manner so as to endanger the life or property of another."

It would certainly be a violation of "§ 91.107 Use of safety belts, shoulder harnesses, and child restraint systems. Each person on board a U.S.-registered civil aircraft must occupy an approved seat or berth with a safety belt and, if installed, shoulder harness, properly secured about him or her during movement on the surface, takeoff, and landing."

Remeber, your license is on the as PIC so don't try any stupid pilot tricks. With 4 people 172s are very near being over MTOW anyway. Two adults, 3 kids and full fuel with any bags would certainly push that envelope. Not to mention with 3 in back you are going to have a CG problem! Legality aside, it wouldn't be smart even if it were legal. I wouldn't worry about that 'child jumpseat' issue. If the plane had one installed, you'd have known about it already. Seems you don't have one, so it's not an option.

Break out your FARs or go here and check them out online-

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?sid=d580e459a391648527f4fbcc82295958&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14cfrv2_02.tpl

PS- anyone sitting on the floor of an aircraft (like a 182) and using that as their seat must still wear a seat belt while not maneuvering for the jump as applicable in 91.107.
 
citationjet
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:34 am

Av8trxx

The 172 CAN hold more than 4 people, per the TCDS 3A12. Here is a link to the type certificate data sheet
http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/ed98b8ab9c938e0886256e2b0054ac2b/$FILE/3a12.pdf
The TCDS states that maximum seats is 4 but for child's optional jump seat, refer to Equipment List. Many Cessna 172s delivered prior to 1985 had certified seating capacity greater than four.
As I stated in reply 5, 172s made before 1985 could have an optional child's seat in the baggage compartment (behind the second seat) which allowed extra seating.

My reply 11 references 91.107 also.
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jwenting
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:44 pm

Citationjet, yes a 172 WITH the extra seat installed is certified for 5 people but there's not a lot of those around anymore.

A 172 without the extra seat is NOT certified for 5 people.

And even with the extra seat you're going to have weight problems unless you're very low on fuel.
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citationjet
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:19 pm

Jwenting,
I was responding to Av8trxx in reply 22 who said that a 172 can only have four people.
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L-188
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Fri Jun 25, 2004 10:28 pm

Av8trxx, I think there is an STC for kiddie seats in the baggage compartment of the 182.

But don't hold me to that.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
cessnalady
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:36 am

Another fact to fathom is take-off altitude... I normally fly a C182 out of CVJ or TLC. These airports are at 4260 and 8250 ft, respectively... I wouldn't dare to toss three children in the back seat (provided there were enough seatbelts) and an adult, plus luggage, departing from either airport...!!

Will your trip take you to high-altitude airfields?

Marie

 
adriaticus
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:54 pm

Once a friend gave me a ride in his C172 from CZM to CUN. Together with him were his son and girlfriend, and luggage. We had a hard time taking off and gaining altitude.

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widebodyphotog
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:17 am

I'll have to agree with those who error on the side of safety. I've flown Cessna 172, 177RG, 182, 210, P210's and I can't really see 5 souls on board a 172. When in doubt don't do it and 99.99% of the time you can't go wrong. W/B is difficult enough with a full load a 172 as it is. Hope you don't take any unnecessary risks up there. Be safe friend.

widebodyphotog
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Av8trxx
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:32 am

My reply was specifc to the poster and their aircraft! As I mentioned previously regarding that 5th seat:

"If the plane had one installed, you'd have known about it already. Seems you don't have one, so it's not an option."

I am sure any such equipment would be very visible to him, so he'd know if it were there. Sounds like now that he's heard about it, he wants to find one to install for the trip. A pricey option. Obviously, without the JS, 172s are certified for 4 people max which was the point being stressed to the pilot.
 
ua777222
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:52 am

If you were to start with the over all comfort and safety it wouldn't work. I think it is stupid of you to risk the safety of your children by not giving one of them a seatbelt. I suggest you think this one out. Though I might be younger than you I find that there is no price you can place for someone's safety. Try a bigger a/c!

UA777222
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lamyl_hhlco
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RE: 5 Persons In A Cessna 172 In The US

Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:16 am

I'm flying an old 1966 C172 and i have a third seat option, would fit greatly for a children and the seatbelt is long enough to tie and secure 2 children at the same time , but all depends on the W&B..tu peux toujours essayer  Big grin

Lam