flyCMH
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ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:31 am

It appears that ATA Airlines would like to have Cologne-Bonn as the carrier's first scheduled transatlatic city. The article does not mention where in the U.S. the proposed flight/s would depart:

http://biz.yahoo.com/rc/040625/airlines_ata_europe_1.html

[Edited 2004-06-25 17:38:53]
 
TriStar500
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:42 am

This will become interesting. You can expect LTU and Lufthansa (through their affiliate Condor) to react on ATA's plans once they should become reality.

From my personal point of view, only serving big gateway cities with a high potential for both business and leisure passengers would make sense. So I expect either EWR or JFK to be among the candidates on the US side.
Homer: Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true!
 
scottysair
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:53 am

This is one of good service to CGN first one service to Europe flight.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:42 am

The article also doesn't mention what type of equipment (plane) will TZ use for these future flights.

Will TZ use 753s or bring a few L-1011s out of retirement?
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
dutchjet
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 1:53 am

ATA's entry into the low-cost transatlantic market will certainly be interesting, and will cause other carriers to react. Cologne is mentioned as the first city, and ATA plans to serve 2 or 3 additional cities in europe according to the article. My guess is that most flights to Europe will be on ATA 757-200s, which have adequate range to fly from the NE United States to northern Europe. The 752s have a good amount of seats that will not be difficult to fill up and very low operating costs.....both important for a low cost operation. Unless ATA can keep the costs down and all of the seats filled up, the low transatlantic fares that they plan to offer will result in losses for the airline.

Gateways are likely to be cities like EWR, BOS or Baltimore, I would image we will see routings like Midway-Newark-Cologne or Indidanpolis-Baltimore-Cologne, to tie the international services into ATA's domestic route system. A guess, but I think that will be the logic.

The question is how other carriers will react.....Lufthansa will certainly do something, they are already in the process of re-lauching the Condor brand and plan to make that division into a low-cost carrier instead of exclusively a charter airline.

LCC on the atlantic.....let the games begin.
 
Big777jet
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:55 am

I remembered many years ago. Lufthansa used be nonstop scheduled flight JFK-CGN on an A300 or A310. I'm not sure about that. I remembered they used to have service for a short term. They dropped service due lack of service. Am I right?


Big777jet

 
7e72004
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:04 am

Is there an airport that is logical on the east coast that ATA could use w/o encountering much resistance in terms of competition? Seems like the new york airports have a lot of service to europe.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
GLAGAZ
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 6:26 am

In an e-mail i got from ATA they mentioned CGN, Shannon and GLA. Would condor compete with ATA on the route to CGN?
Neutrality means that u don't really care cos the struggle goes on even when ur not there, blind and unaware
 
ATA767
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 10:17 am

It really can not be done from MDW because of the fuel requirement and runway capacity. Germans want to go to NY or FL. That leave EWR,BOS, PIE or MCO as possible launch cities however the FL cities really could not support a non-stop in both directions. I would say the should launch it from EWR and have a few feeder flight from EWR to PIE, MCO, MDW, CLT, LAS and IND. Thats my 2 cents.
 
ATAIndy
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:17 am

I just wish ATA will have some transatlantic flights originating in Indy. It's about time for Indy to get a transatlantic flight.
Boiler up! - Next flights: IND-MIA, MIA-IND
 
LambertMan
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:23 am

Think about the destination...

What city is ATA already in that could support such a destination?

EWR
 
LAXintl
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:29 am

From what I understand ATA initially is looking at one continental airport and one UK airport to serve in the begining.

For the US gateway last I heard the choices were, BWI, a NYC airport, and BOS.

While the both NYC and BOS would face competition from both US carriers and host of foreign carriers, ATA would pretty much have BWI to itself as there is very little scheduled Trans Atlantic service from the facility. In addition ATA has a good size set up at BWI as it operated AMC military charters at the airport on near daily basis.

From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
scottysair
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:41 am

I understand with the situation about TZ want service to CGN with B757. It should need to make better way for them. The choices is good for service out of MDW.
 
gigneil
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 12:14 pm

Baltimore is a great idea, but you'd be hard pressed to serve Cologne with a 757 from Baltimore.

N
 
PanAmerican
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:13 pm

Well, I certainly hope they'll send their good old L1011s, but I doubt it  Sad :

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A flight from CGN to BWI would be great!
As they are talking about more European destinations, how about STN as a possibility, that would be a good base for low-cost operations.

I do believe that ATA did have scheduled transatlantic traffic before though. I think in the mid 1990s they flew to Ireland and on to Riga in Latvia with 757s and TriStars. I don't remember what the gateway city in the US was though.
I think it was JFK. Anybody remember that?

 Smile/happy/getting dizzyPA

Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
godbless
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jun 26, 2004 8:40 pm

ATA has been mentioned before in various articles on German forums and also in German newspapers, so to be honest I´m not that surprised... But after all it´s good to see this message come from the other side of the pond.
No matter what Lufthansa/Condor or LTU will do, I guess that CGN has a winner here. It is said that LTU wants to start operations to NY [again] next year so this might have to do with the fact that CGN is becoming a real competion to DUS [from where LTU operates it´s longhauls].

Well if you ask me, CGN is by far more attractive to me than DUS. Just found proof of that yesterday when I flew to MAD from DUS.

Max
 
stirling
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:55 am

PanAmerican-

You remembered correctly.
This would not be ATAs first attempt at service to Europe.
During the summer of 1994, ATA flew JFK to Belfast, Northern Ireland, continuing on for Riga Latvia. Tickets could be purchased to Belfast, but traffic mostly went on to Riga.
Twice a week, WED and SAT, returned on THU and SUN
They used AA's gates at JFK and operated the route with the Tristar.
Service lasted only for that summer season.
If memory serves me correctly, more than half the seats were purchased by a tour company specializing in travel to Russia. It may even have been a Russian/Latvian company. Independence was quite fresh at the time.
Delete this User
 
PanAmerican
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:29 am

Thanks for confirming that, Stirling. Honestly, with such a strange routing, no wonder that didn't work out.
I'm just hoping they'll do better this time with their second attempt at transatlantic service. I'll be excited to hear about the details of this new service, especially from where it will be operating. If they'll offer fares of $100+tax there is no question I'll give them a try  Big thumbs up

By the way, in my opinion ATA's old livery (as posted by me above) was a great classic, too bad they had to replace it with the modern crap.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzyPA

[Edited 2004-06-26 18:31:56]
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
fraT
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:52 am

It's gonna be tight to fly the 757 from NYC or BWI to CGN. CO used to fly from EWR to DUS with the 752 and they had some diversions because of the fuel capacity.
So if they will use the 757 my guess is BOS because German tourists love to visit New England and they could use some feeder flights to other popular destinations.
 
PanAmerican
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:15 am

FraT, yeah, sure BOS would work, however nobody confirmed they'll actually use the 757. However, even if they plan on doing that, BOS-CGN is 3119nm, BWI-CGN is3439nm, on the ATA website it says though that their 757-200s have a range of 3200nm, their 757-300 have a range of 3500nm, so they might also use the 753 to fly from BWI to CGN.

http://www.ata.com/about_ata/fleet.html#Anchor-Boein-2674

Of course, I'm still hoping for the TriStars  Big thumbs up, after all that would be a very unique and probably last opportunity to fly on one of those again!

 Smile/happy/getting dizzyPA

[Edited 2004-06-26 19:17:56]
Pan Am - The World's Most Experienced Airline.
 
fraT
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:26 am

PanAmerican,
that's why I used the word IF.

Besides that I'm still not convinced about this whole LCC transatlantic stuff. DE already mentioned CGN as well and there are a lot of fares in the market which come very close to Low Cost.
Let's wait and see.
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:00 pm

<< ... nobody confirmed they'll actually use the 757. >>

Actually, that's not true. ATA stated four months ago that they would use 757's.

The flights will be point-to-point, and will not depend on hub-feeding. Consequently, they will use large O&D markets as gateways, and they would have to take into account the somewhat limited range of the B757. Obviously, NYC comes to mind, but Boston is certainly a possibility, too.

Btw, Lufthansa served JFK-CGN with all sorts of equipment: 707, 747, DC-10, from the early 60s until 1980, I believe. Currently, they fly the route with a MD-11F.
 
wgw2707
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:20 pm

It would be interesting if they did fly the L1011, but I sorely doubt it.  Sad However, I did get to fly one in 1993 SFO-OGG and HNL-SFO, so I can't complain.  Big grin My first, but hopefully not my last trip in a Tristar, and my first but definitely not my last trip to Hawaii...

-WGW2707
 
wjcandee
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:43 pm

My impression was that they wanted to offer connections to low-cost European carriers. Cologne offers German Wings as the low-cost carrier. If they can go into Stansted, then they get Ryanair and EzJet.

The 752 won't, I believe, make Baltimore. Also, I think that the 757-300 has a *shorter*, not longer, range than the 752, particularly with a one-class service like ATA's. Of course, ATA is adding biz class, but still...

Best,

Bill
 
DCAYOW
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:30 am


I had seen an article in ATW or some other magazine where their Europe strategy was to link smaller / secondary European cities with US sun markets like Florida etc.

BWI would probably work - but they would need to establish a new station there.

Retorne ao céu...
 
clipperno1
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:12 am

Doesn't ATA have a station at BWI for all the AMC flights to/from Europe?
They have a german office in Kelsterbach near F R A for operational organisation.

[Edited 2004-06-27 21:15:08]
"I really don't know one plane from the other. To me they are just marginal costs with wings."� Alfred Kahn, 1977
 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:27 am

An easy answer is that Delta has very little brand recognition in Indonesia.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:47 am

ATA would pretty much have BWI to itself as there is very little scheduled Trans Atlantic service from the facility.

Four other airlines offering scheduled transatlantic service hardly qualifies as "to itself"
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
BH
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:14 am

Yes they do have a nice presence here in BWI with AMC,L-1011's across the pond almost every other day. The 100's and 500's and also the 757-200 to KEF once a week.
 
Big777jet
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:24 am

Let me ask you once more time, Does Lufthansa ever fly nonstop CGN-JFK long time ago? Do you remember or could you check timetable? I remembered LH flew on A310 or A300 in late 1980's.

Thanks,

Big777jet


 
Travelralf
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:24 am

@Big777jet
I lived in Cologne and I remember the flights. You're right, LH served JFK and also Washington.
As far as I recall:
- in the late 60's / early 70's with 707 later with DC10 and 742 to JFK. And also flights to Montreal, Rio , Mexico-City. LH suspended the flights in the late 70's.
- in 1990 LH started again 5 weekly USA fights to EWR (I think) and Washington with A310-300. But this flights didn't last long. They were more a "political" issue as our government in Bonn (which is close to CGN) at that time always asked for flights to Washington and they also wanted to boost traffic with some international flights...

Ralf
 
7e72004
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:36 pm

If USAirways is in some financial trouble and happens to have to cease operations or drastically cut back, (which i hope does not happen) wouldn't PHL be a good LCC gateway to Europe?
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
PHLBOS
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:46 pm

If USAirways is in some financial trouble and happens to have to cease operations or drastically cut back, (which i hope does not happen) wouldn't PHL be a good LCC gateway to Europe?

Should the above-scenario play out, A-West would have plenty of room. With TZ already at A-East (since moving from E a few months ago), it would not be a stretch for them.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
 
StarFlyer
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:47 pm

If ATA want to serve O&D markets (which is an essential part of a low cost airline) they are certainly not going to fly from places like IND or PHL, sorry. As someone pointed out, Germans taking a LCC flight would most likely want to fly to NY or FL.

As the range of the 757 rules a non stop flight from somewhere in FL out I would say it's a pretty save bet to say it will be EWR. Cologne has a huge catchment area reaching well into the Netherlands even and New York is certainly an attractive low cost carrier destination. Sort of like London in Europe. London is served from pretty much any provincial field in Europe!



[Edited 2004-07-09 15:51:33]
Yours truly - StarFlyer
 
7e72004
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:50 pm

I probably would rather go out of EWR than either JFK or LGA.
The next generation of aircraft is just around the corner!
 
PHX Flyer
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:54 pm

Indianapolis and/or Chicago will most likely be tagged on to the transatlantic flights.
The one gateway I have seen mentioned most often is Boston. And there may be only one in 2005, as ATA plans to operate only 2-3 routes initially.
It would certainly be a smart choice to have flights out of NYC, since ATA will mostly depend on O&D traffic, and NYC happens to be the biggest market in the US. JFK or EWR - that remains to be seen. ATA does have an operation station established at EWR. On the the other hand, they have a flight deck crew base in place at JFK. At EWR, ATA will have stronger competition, as Continental also serves many second tier cities in Europe nonstop. Also, ATA's attempt to start transcons out of EWR failed miserably. As a Brooklynite living near the A train I am obviously rooting for JFK. Time will tell.
 
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ERJ170
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:59 pm

With US LCC beginning the trans-atlantic routes, when will the airlines on the other side of the pond begin? Any clues who will be first?
Aiming High and going far..
 
StarFlyer
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RE: ATA Want CGN; No USA Gateway Mentioned

Fri Jul 16, 2004 10:37 pm

@ERJ170,

apart from Condor I don't think there is any airline in Europe that has immediate plans for launching long haul low cost service. Might just be that they are waiting and seeing how it works for ATA.

Now Euro LCC has any long haul aircraft in their fleet, unlike ATA, which would mean the introduction of a new type which would not really fit many low cost airline's business model.

Of course these models are subject to change, and maybe soon an airline will be out there taking this immense risk (which at the same time could be a huge chance).

Thing is, fares across the pond are already low considering the distance, and with some flexibility these are available to anyone booking ahead. What I am trying to say is there might not really be any room for low costs...
JMO

Yours truly - StarFlyer

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