eddieho
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Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:45 am

Hi all,

I just went to watch Fahrenheit 9/11, and it mentioned on how all the flights were grounded, except "high authorization" was given to flights that flew Saudis and the Bin Laden family back to Saudi Arabia, immediately after the 9/11 attacks.

Now... it showed that the flights that went to Saudi Arabia was on September 13. When exactly did airlines start flying again after 9/11? (Someone remind me). And, does anyone know of flights with special priority flying to Saudi Arabia on 9/13 because I haven't heard of it until I watched the movie.

(In the movie it showed a whole list of flights that was bound to Saudi Arabia- around 20 of them).

P.S. Fahrenheit 9/11 is really good (I cried in some scenes). I think it's very all rounded, covering politics, saudis, and of course, the soldiers.
 
flyf15
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:49 am

I remember hearing about this a while back, something about them being the only non-goverment, non-necessary (police, medical, etc) flights that were conducted.
 
eddieho
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:59 am

I'm trying to find out is that when flights resumed after Sept 11? (Cuz the Saudi Arabian flights were on Sept. 13). (International flights).

If flights resumed days after sept 13, then the film has a point. If not, then the film has no point (well that particular argument, for that matter).

P.S. Watch the documentary and decide for yourself before making opinions  Smile
 
EMBQA
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:02 am

They where Chartered business jets
"It's not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog"
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:07 am

The flights MM spoke of DID in fact take place. I'm surprised no one from here happened to notice a few lone aircraft operating on a day when none should have been expected. It seems that a plane cannot go to the bathroom without a A.netter getting a pic of it. So what happened during those few days....were you all in hibernation?

There's nothing illegal about being partners in business with Saudi's, but there is something wrong when said people lie about it when questioned.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:08 am

I just saw it too and had the same question.

Just as a guess, I checked the NWA website and I got this information:

Sept. 14 - Northwest Airlines resumes limited commercial service.


So, service really didn't start until the 14th, but the Saudis were removed before then.
Compare New York Air, the Airline that works for your Business
 
tekelberry
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:09 am

I also saw the movie. The movie never said all airplanes were grounded when the authorization was given. Specific commercial flights were given authorization to operate, as well as these charters carrying the Bin Ladens.

The movie is misleading in this aspect. I read an article somewhere that explained what I just said above.
 
eddieho
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:18 am

Yes, the film did show proof (documents) of the Saudi Arabian flights, and of course, interviews with former FBI, etc, and also a small newspaper article.

Does anyone know about the Sept 13 flights or when exactly did flights resume? (Let's not blame Moore... he's just a director)
 
squirrel83
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:22 am

I saw the movie today, it was moving and had some good poInts. . . There were COMmercial airlines involved as well on the 13th, thats all I know . .
A346, 7E7, 747, 777, Sonic Cruiser
 
ltbewr
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:07 am

Any commercial airliner flights on 9/13/01 were only repositioning or crew transport flights or maybe those who were stopped in Canada comming from Europe. From what I recall, true commercial paid passanger flights were not resumed until the following Monday. From the 12th to the 20th, the only real flights were those by the President, US military, Police, FBI, CIA, human transplant transfer, medical supplies (drugs), important financial papers (had to keep the banks open and the money flowing even during a war like crises, and that is understandable).
Richard Clark, the guy who got a lot of publicity for his book condemming Bush recently, was the one whom authorized some of the 'emergency flights' described in F-9/11. These were on government or private bizjets or small jet charters. They included members of the bin Ladan family, some of whom were respected residents or here legaly in the US.
While I agree that they all - Saudi princes or binLaden family members - shoud have been 'transported' for their safety from potential assult by members of the public (or maybe they should have left them to the hands of the mobs) they should have ALL been brought to a military base for intensive interrigation, their financial accounts frozen in the USA, and held until we captured their perveted relative/fellow Saudi. As to the 'princes' they are a dime a dozen, and there are problems as to 'diplomatic immunity' with them. It was not well reported, but in the days and months following 9/11, there were hundreds of assults in the USA on those thought to be Muslim, or wearing a turbin (like Sikks), so some protective removal has some reasoning. In some cases, some Saudis and other Arab region residents were allowed to leave on the next available commercial flights to Europe and to the Arab region when flights resumed.
Don't forget that Moore is using some 'creative license' in this film to put his point across, and sometimes stretched the truth. Yet, at other times, is more true than the press was at the time. Don't forget, we were traumatized, united against this new enemy, and wanted avengece as soon and as severe as possible (three weeks later we were in Afganistan). For many months, the press didn't take a critical view of the proposed policies of war on terror of Bush, or note challanges of the public to them. Many people were thus sold a bill of bad goods as to going into Iraq.
Another problem as to when to resume flights after 9/11 for 'others' was the failure of security to then that had to be changed massively and immediately.
I hope the film isn't taken as the only story of that day or the time since then, but makes people think about what their government does from not just a short term view, but a long term view.
 
eddieho
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:24 am

Hmm thats very imformative... thanks Ltbewr...
 
HAL
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:36 am

The previous posters are correct; the announcement saying that flights were being resumed came out on the afternoon of the 13th. Of course the airlines couldn't just start flying right away as aircraft, passengers, crews, etc had to be prepped and the airline infrastructure put back into motion. Most airlines (including Hawaiian where I was working) resumed their flights on the morning of the 14th.

HAL
One smooth landing is skill. Two in a row is luck. Three in a row and someone is lying.
 
NeptunesCar
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:05 pm

i flew on 9/13 from Oklahoma City to San Francisco on UA (we stopped there while on MIA SFO on 9/11) in the evening. we were told that we were first priority due to aircraft repositioning (they needed the 762 in SFO) as they started the regular passenger flights on 9/14. when we arrived in SFO we were the first plane to land there the airport was deserted.
You call it the world, we call it home. Pan Am.
 
777ualsfo
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:18 pm

I flew 9/13 evening den-sfo, UAL was running their 777 back to SFO, very empty terminals and flights but things were running.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:22 pm

US carriers were cleared to resume UNRESTRICTED part 121, part 129, part 131, part 135 and part 107 operations both internationally and domestically on the afternoon of September 13, 2001.

Canadian carriers were cleared to resume scheduled flag operations on September 14, 2001.

All other carriers were permitted to complete "diversion recovery operations from Canada" (not from any other diversion point) on September 13, 2001.

All other carriers were permitted to complete "recovery and repatriation operations" from all points on a case-by-case basic on September 14, 2001.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
eddieho
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:23 pm

I see... about how many flights were there on Sept 13? Does anyone know?

PS. This forum isn't about Moore, it's just about what happened to airlines on Sept 13 and whether or not flights that were prioritized for S. Arabia did fly... (See other forum if u wanna make opinions)
 
eddieho
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:26 pm

B747-437... You mentioned diversions etc happening and domestic flights. Were there any international flights? Or to put it another way, were there any RECORDED international flights...
 
B747-437B
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 12:28 pm

Eddieho, at the time the focus was primarily to get scheduled operations back on their feet. I know that I wasn't particularly concerned about any other flights and by September 13 there were literally hundreds of recovery flights in progress (both international and domestic) so that a handful of bizjets heading to Saudi were not particularly on the radar so to speak.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
meister808
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:17 pm

OK... so what we have decided was that on 9/13/01, flights were allowed to resume.

I don't really think this is a big deal, because those of us who saw the movie know that, at NO POINT, does Moore say that all flights were grounded. He insinuates it pretty hard, and the layperson who doesn't know about aviation assumes that airplanes were still grounded, but the film never states as such. It was something that I noticed as soon as he started talking about it.

I do agree, though, that it may have been a rather good idea to question the Saudis who knew Osama Bin Laden before we let them book it back home.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:52 pm

I thought it was 9/14/2001 that the F.A.A. and the D.O.T. allowed flights to resume. But whatever.....

On the other hand, most airlines were not flying full schedules. Alot of flights were cancelled. I remember AS was flying only 45% of its schdule on 9/14/01. Some other carriers were flying about the same. I think WN was flying at 70% of their regular schedule. Honestly, I dont remember exact stats.

As for Michael Moore's movie/documentry, I dont have a slight interest in seeing it and I won't. I have no interest in watching a movie full of video clips. Most of his movies are hearsay and a full of BS. Im beginning to dislike Michael Moore, he thinks he is Mr. Know-It-All. Yes, its is right per the 1st amendment of the U.S. constitution to voice his opinion, but Im sure many other people don't necessarly agree with Michael Moore's opinion. Still, he needs to get his facts straight. Makes you wonder if he is a fan of that lame idiotic website 'letsroll911.com' he probably is.....

I also heard (no source here...again...the wonderful world of television...) that someone is going to make a rebuttal to Mr. Moore's documentary and will entitle it "Michael Moore Hates America".

Disclamer: Its just my opinion about Michael Moore. Im not trying to sound anti-american at all (which Im not anti-american, Im proud of being an american...) so please dont bash me for my opinion.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
L-188
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:52 pm

I remember hearing about this a while back, something about them being the only non-goverment, non-necessary (police, medical, etc) flights that were conducted.

Working for a medivac company in Alaska, I can tell you that it was a pain in the butt too.

If memory serves we had to file all flight plans IFR through Kenai Flight Service, which covers our operations area, we had to have Social Security Numbers, Date of Births, and names of the crewmembers to give to the FAA, they then had to call NORAD to get approval and a T-sponder code that we would then use for the flight.

Slowed every flight down by a 10-15 minutes, in an area where time really counts.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
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VirginFlyer
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:56 pm

I have just spent the best part of half an hour removing 20 (exactly one half!) of the replies from this topic. Please keep this discussion on track - i.e. about what happened on the 13th of September, when civil aviation was allowed to resume after the 11th of September, etc.

If you want to discuss politics, or the merits of Fahrenheit 9/11, please do so in the Non-Aviation Forum, where there are plenty of threads on those subjects and related issues.

If I have to remove any more off topic posts from this thread, it will be locked, and the offending poster or posters will receive a short suspension. I would much rather it didn't have to come to that.

V/F
"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth." - Bahá'u'lláh
 
air2gxs
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:20 pm

I travelled ORD-FCO on 9/13/2001 with AA.
 
Bigfoot
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:38 pm

As far as I recall, the first foreign plane to land on US soil was an Alitalia MD-11 that stopped in Canadian territory. I believe it was September 14 early morning west coast time.
Madness takes its toll, please have exact change
 
widebodyphotog
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:18 pm

I have not read all the posts here but I was at Dulles (IAD) on and after September 11, 2001 and our ship was the first international flight to leave there after the attacks. NH001 departed the morning of September 13 after being diverted to DTW and grounded for 2 days.


widebodyphotog
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rjpieces
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:45 pm

Did anybody notice when they zoomed in on the document showing how many flights had left with Saudis? On the right side of the screen it said point of departure and most of them were from JFK. The shot changed quickly but I believe next to each JFK, it said SV. So was it mainline Saudi Arabian flights shuttling a few of them back? Or does SV have smaller business jets in it's fleet?
"Millions long for immortality who do not know what to do with themselves on a rainy Sunday afternoon"
 
md80fanatic
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:04 pm

http://www.saintpetersburgtimes.com/2004/06/09/Tampabay/TIA_now_verifies_flig.shtml


 
BostonGuy
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:07 pm

The 9/11 Commission discovered that no such flights removing Saudi's took place.

I just find it hard to believe that this actually happened. Reminds me of the Kennedy assassination conspiracy theories... people will come up with a lot of nonsense to explain traumatic events.

I'm willing to change my mind on this, however, should credible evidence come to light. So far, however, there isn't any such credible evidence.
 
eddieho
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:35 pm

Good link, MD80Fanatic
 
artsyman
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:42 pm

While I obviously cannot verify the following, much of the commentary I have heard on this is actually slanting towards these planes taking the hijackers of the other planned flights out of the country.

Before I am attacked for this, I am not agreeing or disagreeing with it, just sharing the information. Obviously, if this were true, then the ramafications are more or less utterly mental.

J
 
cicadajet
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:45 pm

I believe there were quite *more* than a handful of flights in the immediate aftermath of 911 allowing Saudis to be whisked out of the USA. About 15-17 -something like that. It was reported at the time and I have always remembered it. I did not see the movie.

At least some went to Europe, and not directly to Saudi Arabia.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:11 pm

Air Canada started flying again the afternoon of September 13.

I flew one of the first flights back ... YXE-YWG-YOW-YYZ
It was a full revenue flight with all but the first leg full.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
macmac76
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:26 pm

I did not see the movie and will not see it. The 9/11 Commission concluded that the aforementioned flights took place when airspace reopened. MM seem to blow that out of proportion which he usually does. In addition, the FBI have already cleared those flights before they departed. But I'm not surprised that these weren't included in the movie considering the fact that the film is a slanted, biased and more of a propaganda.
 
sq452
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:31 pm

Authorization was given to the Bin Laden family (quite a few of them live in the U.S.) to leave the U.S. for Saudi Arabia I believe.

Believe it or not Richard Clarke was the man that authorized these flights I heard. Theres a lot of stuff that Michael Moore doesn't know (and wont because its CLASSIFIED)

I tried to go see it last night but wound up seeing The Terminal instead because it was sold out.

The part I dont like is that its a bunch of Bush bashing, and Michael Moore can not seperate his rage for Bush from investigating possibilities into 9/11. Its a bunch of conspiracy theories that he has, I'll go see it though just to see what the hoopla is all about.
SIN > CVG > BOS
 
elwood64151
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 12:44 am

So, service really didn't start until the 14th, but the Saudis were removed before then.

Northwest didn't begin service until the 14th. I was on the NJ ground crew that put a B6 flight in the air on the 13th.

Any commercial airliner flights on 9/13/01 were only repositioning or crew transport flights or maybe those who were stopped in Canada comming from Europe.

Again, wrong. We put out passengers on 9/13.

From the 12th to the 20th, the only real flights were those by the President, US military, Police, FBI, CIA, human transplant transfer, medical supplies (drugs), important financial papers (had to keep the banks open and the money flowing even during a war like crises, and that is understandable).

No no no no no no no no. Passenger revenue flights were operating as of the afternoon of 9/13. Who told you these lies?

they should have ALL been brought to a military base for intensive interrigation, their financial accounts frozen in the USA, and held until we captured their perveted relative/fellow Saudi.

And what legal precedent would have have had to do this? If he had, the ACLU would have hemmed and hawed the same way they are about POWs in the internment camp at Guantanamo Bay...

Another problem as to when to resume flights after 9/11 for 'others' was the failure of security to then that had to be changed massively and immediately.

Security DID NOT FAIL. The weapons used in the 9/11 attacks were allowed under FAA regulations at the time.

Hmm thats very imformative... thanks Ltbewr...

No, it's not. There are out-and-out falsehoods in the post. Whether intentional or (I hope) unintended, his "facts" can be easily disputed.

As for Michael Moore's movie/documentry, I dont have a slight interest in seeing it and I won't. I have no interest in watching a movie full of video clips. Most of his movies are hearsay and a full of BS.

I liked his earlier films, where he went after HMOs and stuff like that, but Moore is quickly relegating himself to the world of irrelevance.



Look, there are a lot of very powerful people with easy access to cameras and microphones who will say anything to make 9/11 look like a CIA conspiracy or make it look like the White House is in league with Al-Queada. There are also a lot of people who "heard something" or who "saw a report on this or that."

Part of the problem is that everything was so confused and there were numerous reports coming form various sources. Vanguard expected to have aircraft in the air by 1130 on 9/13. Our first flight went out closer to 1730. We told passengers they'd be flying, and they didn't. The local news reported that our aircraft had taken off, but they hadn't.

Michael Moore wasn't involved with the actual operations, and I doubt he's familiar with FAA Regulations. I was working on 9/13, and I can tell you, planes were flying, and any media reports by any media service are suspect. Even paperwork filed by the various airlines and agencies may not be entirely accurate.

By the way, I saw a news report that the the Bradbury's are considering suing MM for copyright infringement (Farenheight 451 vs. Farenheight 9/11).
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
eddieho
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:55 am

Btw: I think the message of the film wasn't only about planes headed for Saudi Arabia before they left, but specifically focused on why Saudis and the Bin Laden family were not detained and instead, hussled out by the FBI.
 
jwenting
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:03 am

there's lies, damned lies and Moore Lies...

If there were flights they were after the US airspace was opened.
If they were shortly after it was opened that's because it was a charter and the people would have been easy to get to the aircraft.

If they were relatives of the prime suspect, I can understand why they'd want to leave the country and not be subject to a lynch mob...
Given the size of the bin Laden family and its global businesses (plus they had outcast Osama years earlier for his radical ideals) it's quite possible that there were relatives of the man in the USA at the time and they wanted out to avoid said lynch mobs.
Given that they have money it's not surprising they would have either their own aircraft or been able to rent some at short notice.

Given that it was aircraft departing the country over water I doubt the FAA would be much bothered about them.

[sarcasm mode="on"]
And the largest conspiracy of them all: Bush probably wanted them to crash into buildings where the evidence of his corrupting the Florida elections were stored.
[sarcasm mode="off"]
I wish I were flying
 
B747-437B
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 2:25 am

Air Canada started flying again the afternoon of September 13

AC started domestic Canadian operations wholly within Canadian airspace on that day. They were not permitted flag operations into US airports until the morning of September 14.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
ckfred
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:22 am

If someone really want to know what happened on 9/13, by advice would be to file a Freedom of Information Act (FOAI) request with the FAA for all flightplans for U.S. departures to Saudi Arabia.

If the FAA gives 1 or 2 flightplans for Saudi Air widebodies from its usual U.S. gateways, then that would debunk Mr. Moores arguments.

If, on the other hand, there are several business jets departing smaller airports, like HPN or TEB, then Mr. Moore is likely to be right.
 
Vctony
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:33 am

I recall the reading something (I don't quite recall the source) that the Saudis did leave the country when the airspace reopened (ie, they didn't leave when it was restricted) however they were given the first priority to get out of the country (they were the first few flights when airspace did indeed reopen).
 
Aerosvit
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:23 am

mmk...thanks for the info  Smile/happy/getting dizzy....I just usually watch C-SPAN and see what's up with Congress...  Laugh out loud
Clava Ykraini
 
Espion007
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:57 am

OK,absolutley everything about this topic can be found here:

http://snopes.com/rumors/flight.htm

Its very detailed and even has the sources at the bottom
Snakes on a Plane!
 
AirEMS
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:53 am

I remember that on the night of September 11 or maybe it was the early early morning of September 12 my air medical group (Flight For Life Denver) flew blood and relief workers to NYC talking to the pilots who flew it they said that they were escorted by 3 F-16's the whole way....... Just my small bit of information
If Your Dying Were Flying
 
eddieho
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RE: Flights On 2001 Sept 13? (Fahrenheit 9/11)

Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:16 pm

The point about that piece of info in the movie wasn't about the flights that were authorized, it was about the Saudis and Bin Ladens that were allowed to leave the country - without being interrogated. That's what Moore was trying to show us... the Bin Laden and Bush connection