Qantasflyer
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Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:03 pm

Do you think that the recently announced cabin refurbishments and enhancements will affect Qantas or other airlines in the region? If so what do you think QF can do to make its product more attractive to its customers, what improvements would you like to see?

Me personally i think that QF could upgrade its IFE to AVOD and i really think that they shoukd put footrests in Economy class.
Qantasflyer That's the spirit. The Spirit of Australia!
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:07 pm

And possibly Upgrade its F Class
Upgrade its Skybeds IMMEDIATELY
Add a New Premium Y Class Cabin
Introduce Interent functions
Upgrade its Inferior Lounge
The list goes on.....

I think given their Trunk routes are still under guard, they are safe for the time being, but Hopefully not for long.
 
Qantasflyer
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:15 pm

Do you really think that there would be enough demand for a premium Y class cabin from two airlines in the one region? Why do you regard its lounge as being inferior? they contantly recieve awards of recognition. However i do support your idea in upgrading the F class as there is little difference in the product of F and J only F being flat and of course the vast difference in price and as you know i support your view in upgrading its Skybeds.
Qantasflyer That's the spirit. The Spirit of Australia!
 
QANTASpower
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:18 pm

Oh for heavens sake ... we have just had some former bankrupt airline which was bailed out by it's Govt finally announce that 12 months out they are finally going to come up to speed with things like PTV's etc etc Give me a break!!!

Qantas CEO has already announced they are currently evaluating AVOD ... it will of course be available on the A380. The Rockwell Collins system can easily be upgraded.

Business class has just been relaunched and has had great reviews from clients and is doing great business on QF's LHR routes. Comments from anti QF crusader Cx123 are ridiculous in regard to Sybed ... are you an ex Ansett employee???

QF new all about flatbeds before introducing Skybed and found it superior to BA's flatbed.

QF may introduce a premium economy on the A380 but will not on the 744's. Remember ANZ and Virgin have no First class.

But yes ANZ currently does not offer any competition to QF ... the current product is dreadful. So this will keep QF on it's toes and that is a good thing.

 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:46 pm

I am NOT Ex-Ansett, But I do Admit they offered a better service to QF back then!

As for the SYD lounge, I don't consider the F Class lounge is up to standard (compare to CX and SQ) Especially SYD is the hub!

1) Catering is terrible
2) Size is small and shared by ALL ONEWORLD carriers
3) Lack of facilities ( The Internet station was extremely SLOW and lack of machines!)
4) Entertatinment in the Lounge?

I tried the Skybed, but find them the same as CX, SQ, etc.... Can you honestly tell me you prefer to sleep at an angle compared to BA. I know BA might not be the best, but I personally prefer them.


Also your comment about "former bankrupt airline which was bailed out by it's Govt finally announce that 12 months out they are finally going to come up to speed with things like PTV's etc etc Give me a break!!!"

Look at CX! they suffered HARD!!! REAL HARD last year. Look at them!! Everything up to speed, Up to date!

It is just Australians a slow in adopting new things in general
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:50 pm


I totally agree with you, Qantaspower-ANZ is NO threat to Qantas on it's long haul routes, but is a keen competitor on the trans tasman routes on which it competes fairly well. The only long haul route where they compete is Aust/NZ-USA where Australians will have to transit through AKL with an extra stop. Therefore, even with the ANZ upgrades, Air New Zealand would have to offer a substantially better product as an incentive for the extra stopover, as well as charge less for it, which they have shown they are prepared to do. Either way, Qantas has such a large slice of trans pacific traffic from Australia that ANZ really is just a peripheral player rather than a threat. I believe that Qantas's keen efforts to buy part of ANZ is not to reduce competition long haul, but to neutralise competition across the tasman and save costs/boost it's profits even further.

About the Skybeds: as I said on a previous thread, each product has it's pros and cons. The BA bed, whilst being completely flat has drawn criticism for being too narrow, as well as half the passengers having to face the wrong way. CX/SQ and QF have gone down the same path with slightly tilted beds, but no doubt wider and for many people, more comfortable.
The VS/ANZ beds may be the best compromise of space in terms of width and also flatness, but I don't know if this is enough to make a difference in market share. not forgetting that this configuration means that they would be able to fit less seats per unit of space and have a higher bottom line to meet compared to it's competitors. So I think the QF bed holds up quite well.

AVOD and internet capabilities are upgradable on the QF system rather quickly and I think they will happen soon.

As for CX123's assessment lounge: The Qantasclub in SYD is great! Ok, not as good as the Wing at CLK or the lounge at Dubai, but otherwise, it is one of the best international lounges around.


Getting ack to the QF/ANZ competition thing: the fact is that since ANZ's bastardisation of ANSETT, it has been shut out of Australia's market share and therefore will never have the critical mass it needs to make any major dents in any significant market share. It's cashflow is only slowely returning back to it's pre-ansett levels and they still have years of heavy debt to service and pay off. One clue to this is the ridiculously extended timetable of refurbishments with these changes not being completed until the end of 2006-with a very small fleet-that's slow!
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:56 pm

"one of the best international lounges around"??

Urmm what about SQ @ SIN, MH at KUL, BA @ LHR, the list goes on......

Even I find the BA Lounge in JFK (Business) is better!

"slightly tilted beds" Urmm, I think it is more than slightly. It is not comortable to sleep in that position for an extended period of time.:

Also NO ONE has explained, what is so special about QF's Skybed, when compared to CX, SQ, NH etc.....
 
Qantasflyer
Topic Author
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:09 pm

BEST LOUNGE - Final rankings

1.
Cathay Pacific

2.
Emirates

3.
Gulf Air

4.
Malaysia Airlines

5.
Qantas

6.
SAS Scandinavian Airlines

7.
Virgin Atlantic

8.
Asiana Airlines

9.
British Airways



10.
South African Airways

Taken from sky trax best lounge 2004 result
Qantasflyer That's the spirit. The Spirit of Australia!
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:13 pm

I thought I commented on that Lounge survey already. How can BA and VS be behind QF??? Can someone please explain??

In terms of service, facilities and ambience, I am sure BA and VS is better.

But anyway QF should Upgrade the lounge soon (I think it has been there for a LONG time!)
 
Qantasflyer
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:15 pm

I must say CX123 the QF lounge is quite good!
Qantasflyer That's the spirit. The Spirit of Australia!
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:19 pm

Have you being to LHR and HKG? and experienced the CX and BA/VS Lounge.

I mena compared to AA's Admirals Lounge QF is 10 times better, however since SYD in their HUB city, I think it is better if they expand the lounge and increase the offerings.
The shit thing since CX got rid of their lounge in SYD is the face I have to use the QF Lounge all the time, so I know it inside out already.

It is a NICE place to relax still (If not FULL, which can be since BA, CX all share this lounge) but as a HUB city, QF can do better.
 
Qantasflyer
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:22 pm

While i stand behind the SYD lounge and think it is amongst the best in the world, there is always room for improvement and i think that airlines should continously upgrade their product to meet the demands of the industry.
Qantasflyer That's the spirit. The Spirit of Australia!
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:39 pm


Hmm. i think your standards are very high, Cx123. You are right in that QF doesn't have THE best lounge. But it's in the top 5 in the world, easy. That's pretty good, and CERTAINLY better than ANZ which is what this thread is about.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
Beno
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:50 pm

CX123,

You should stop trying to compare CX/SQ with QF.

QF is a MUCH larger operation, CX/SQ only operate from 1 major gateway while QF operate from at least 6 to 7 Intl gateways.

QF has a large domestic and Intl operation as well as QLink, AO, JQ which is alot harder to manage than just one Intl operation like SQ/CX.

QF are rolling out the skybed as quickly as they can, but they are also trying to upgrade the 743s take delivery of new A330s put some A330s through Intl conversion as well as set up a new LCC the list goes on.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:54 pm

Just out of interest and off topic, when are QF going to replace their 743s? and are there any 742s left? I havent seen a QF 742 in a while and they were regular visitors to AKL a couple of years ago.
What are they going to replace them with? Is it going to be the 744ER? or an Airbus?
 
Qantasflyer
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:57 pm

The 743's will bea round for a while to come i think till 2006 and no all the B742's departed the QF fleet in 2002.
Qantasflyer That's the spirit. The Spirit of Australia!
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:21 pm

Beno

" as quickly as they can,"

As discussed before QF is installing it as SLOW as they can on certain Routes (eg. LAX) so they can MAX out profit.

I will not be surprised if the Skybeds are not available on LAX till next year!


 
Beno
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:24 pm

QF107 SYD-LAX-JFK yesterday was operated by OJO a skybed aircaft.
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:29 pm

Last minute Adjustment, Must be because the regular 744 is on maintenance. Even on QF they CANNOT Guarantee it yet till later this year.
 
B-HXB
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:34 pm

I agree that the QF lounge at SYD is actually very poor for a newly constructed lounge. All the points mentioned earlier by CX123 are all valid.

Catering is limited to biscuits, cold cuts, few sweet slices - not impressive.

The lounge gets very full in the afternoon, since in addition to the QF flights there are the two BA flights and the CX flight.

The internet connection is awfully slow. For a newly built lounge not installing broadband is unacceptable.

QF could do far better and indeed the NZ lounge at Sydney does do better with respect to catering and business facilities, compared with the QF lounge at SYD which is embarassing given SYD is QF's home city.
 
aerohottie
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:44 pm

Here is my verdict.

Having used both QF and NZ lounges at SYD, I would have to say the NZ lounge is much roomier, I mean the lounge is huge!!!
Catering is ok (I prefer QF catering), and Business facilities in the QF are marginally better IMO.

I think the NZ lounge in SYD is better than the NZ lounge in AKL. QF have a really crap lounge in AKL though.
What?
 
Sydscott
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:32 pm

"Do you think that the recently announced cabin refurbishments and enhancements will affect Qantas or other airlines in the region?"

The answer is no. Not unless Air New Zealand is going to re-start flying direct to places like LAX from Australia. The fact they are converting to 2 class configuration and ditching first class is just them catching up to the realities of the region they primarily operate in and who their market is.

"If so what do you think QF can do to make its product more attractive to its customers, what improvements would you like to see?"

QF's capital expenditure program is currently in the buy planes, refurnish the fleet mode mainly. Under James Strong it went through a build terminals and upgrade facilities phase. So the investment in its on-board product is taking precedence at the moment. When we next see improvements to it's ground facilities I personally think that number 1 on the list should be a significant expansion of the Perth Domestic Terminal, (because it is inadequate for the number of planes and volume of traffic that it is now passing though it), and upgrade the Sydney lounge. Personally I dont like the footrests on-board but QF's product should at least match SQ's Internationally.

"As discussed before QF is installing it as SLOW as they can on certain Routes (eg. LAX) so they can MAX out profit."

CX why do you have a bee in your bonnet about an airline that makes money. They ARE rolling out the skybeds as per their schedule and the fact that it may be slower than what you like it isn't going to make them withdraw their 747 fleet earlier and disrupt schedules to fit them out. Beno provided a list of the converted ones in another thread. Plus from a profit point of view the finance people at QF would expect an increased IRR and ROCE from the enhancements they are making. Therefore the MAX profit will occur after installation not before.

"I will not be surprised if the Skybeds are not available on LAX till next year!"

So what!!!!! I'm sure they will be available to London, Frankfurt and other 744 destinations.

 
aussie747
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:56 pm

"I will not be surprised if the Skybeds are not available on LAX till next year!"

CX123 do a little research before you quote.

You will find that at the moment about a third of the scheduled services to LAX are currently fitted with skybed, just ring up somebody, seat map will let you know if it has the skybed only four rows on the botton. In any case by the end of September all three class aircraft to the USA will be complete with skybed. All 744' s will be completed just after the new Year, about 2 to three months ahead of schedule.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:45 pm

Thanks Qantasflyer, I've only been to the NZ lounge in AKL, it's pretty flash, free drinks yay  Big grin
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:58 pm

I don't want to do this, but you guys force to to QUOTE the following again:



Also NOTE that the flights to the US are NOT guaranteed on Skybeds, as mentioned by the CSO of QF!!

Just admit it, they QF is SLOW in adopting everything.


Latest News
Qantas Puts Beds in Business Class
SYDNEY, 20 May 2002

Qantas today announced that it would invest $300 million to relaunch its International Business Class, featuring new seats that convert to beds.

Qantas Chief Executive Officer Geoff Dixon said the new Qantas International Business Class would offer the highest level of comfort and service, with custom-built seats that set a new standard in aircraft seat design.

"We believe our new seats will be the best all-round Business Class seats in the sky," Mr Dixon said.

"The Business Class cabin configuration will have 15 fewer seats than are currently on board, giving customers more space."

Features of the new Qantas Business Class seat include:

* 6'6" length and 25" width when fully reclined;
* A fixed cocoon-style seat surround to provide maximum privacy and provide a barrier to cabin noise;
* Extensive adjustment control to ensure maximum comfort in any position for all customers regardless of their height;
* Storage options for reading materials and other possessions, including a shoe cupboard and glove box for spectacles and travel documents;
* A PC power outlet that allows laptops to be plugged straight in without the need for adaptor cables;
* A large 10.4" screen offering multi-channel entertainment;
* A back massage feature; and
* High-quality noise cancellation headsets.

Mr Dixon said Qantas had developed the design in partnership with one of the world's leading industrial designers, London-based Australian Marc Newson, and US manufacturer BE Aerospace.

"The design process followed extensive research involving our business customers who told us they wanted a seat that converted into a bed for sleeping but which also offered the maximum level of comfort as an armchair, dining chair and work chair. They also wanted privacy, flexibility and personal space.

"We believe our new seats will exceed our customers' expectations, with regard to both the seat and the innovative way we are using the surrounding space," Mr Dixon said.

"Marc Newson's seat designs for the home have achieved icon status in design and architecture circles. We believe the Qantas Business Class seat, which not only looks fantastic but sets new standards for comfort and ease of use, will achieve the same fame."

Mr Dixon said the re-designed Qantas International Business Class would also include:

* a lighting system designed exclusively for Qantas;

* artworks on display at the front of the cabin;

* a self-service bar area;

* new-style catering to provide more choice and flexibility; and

* a range of improvements on the ground such as more secluded premium check-in areas offering more personal service.

Installation of the new Business Class seats will start within the next 12 months and be introduced initially on the airline's London and Hong Kong routes in the first half of 2003.

This latest investment follows a range of international product and service enhancements including:

* This month's opening of a new flagship Qantas Club at the Sydney International Terminal with facilities for up to 500 Business Class and 150 First Class customers - the largest departure lounge in the Southern Hemisphere;

* New international lounges in Melbourne and Honolulu, and for First Class customers in Singapore;

* Plans for new First and Business Class lounges in Bangkok and a new Singapore Business Class lounge;

* Installation of a $300 million in-flight entertainment system in the airline's Boeing 747-400 aircraft featuring individual seat back videos in Economy Class, larger touch screens and PC Power in First and Business Class and in seat telephones in all classes - due for completion early next year;

* Re-designed 747-400 cabin interiors with new seat fabrics, curtains, carpet, pure woollen blankets, pillows and in First Class, doonas; and

* Six new Boeing 747-400 Extended Range aircraft to be delivered from November 2002.

"We are committed to continually looking at ways to improve our product to ensure our customers have the best possible experience when flying Qantas," Mr Dixon
Issued by Qantas Public Affairs (2704)
Email: qantasmedia@qantas.com.au

 
anstar
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:02 am

Didn't it take SQ a while to sort their new business class out? God, BA have been working on it for nearly 4 years now!

Its reality... QF gave a schedule for roll out, they seem to be ahead of schedule, so I'm not too sure what the big deal is. At least they decided to invest in a new biz product. Look at the american carriers, thai, malaysian. Where are their new biz class? Now I would call them slow to roll out....

CX your continual anti QF banter is getting a bit repetitive now.

As for the lounges, I agree the QF SYD F lounge could do with an update, but I think QF's biz lounges are far superior to most around the world including BA, AA etc
 
Sydscott
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:53 am


"Also NOTE that the flights to the US are NOT guaranteed on Skybeds, as mentioned by the CSO of QF!!"

The CEO specifies Hong Kong and London so you are spot on. Therefore you have no right to continue to be argumentative on the fact that not all QF services to LAX are Skybed equipped. It wasn't promised to start with!!!!!!

"Just admit it, they QF is SLOW in adopting everything."

Fly any US based airlines Business Class and you will see SLOW to adopt everything. EG UAL. This is because they dont have the cash to invest in their products which would be the same for QF is CX had his way and profits weren't a goal of airlines.
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:04 pm

ANstar, get your facts RIGHT!

Yes BA introduced the beds for more than 4 years, but when they first launched it it was available on SYD-LHR, LHR-HKG, JFK-LHR and many more routes! (It all happened in the 1st year!!!!)
Whereas if you actually got a brain to read what I posted from the press released, QF Annouced they will fit the Bloody beds in 2002! and guess what
you said "seem to be ahead of schedule"??

Ahead of what schedule,

Even the SYD-HKG and SYD-LHR were behind schedule!!
Also the LAX route should've got the skybeds Late last year already!!

"The CEO specifies Hong Kong and London so you are spot on. Therefore you have no right to continue to be argumentative on the fact that not all QF services to LAX are Skybed equipped. It wasn't promised to start with!!!!!!"

QF did say it will be available by EARLY 2004!!!

You can't compare QF with those Substandard airlines (eg. AA!)
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:46 pm

Again, people having a go at the scheduled roll out of the Qantas Skybed.

QF announced in June 2002 (from memory) that they would -begin- rolling out the Skybeds within the next 12 months. This is a start date of June 2002 to June 2003.

According to information I got on another thread, they -began- in September 2003, which was 3 months outside the initial start date given in June 2002.

As such, they were 3 months late.

Big deal.

Qantas appear to be making money hand over fist, so I hardly see the disadvantages to their reputation internationally by not having the Skybed back in 1996 or whatever other year another carrier had them. Just remember that Qantas had proper beds in the flying boats in the 1930s and only a few airlines operated those, so Qantas was one of the first if you really want to nitpick!

My apologies for such an off topic post, but Cx123 had to be replied to.

Trent.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
anstar
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:09 pm

CX123, What facts did I get wrong with the BA rollout? If you care to do some seaching on the net you will see their was oodles of conusion on BA's rollout and complaints they weren't doing it quickly enough.

Anyways, Your press release from QF doesn't say the beds would be started in 2002. Read your own info first.

Note* It syas (In may) that instal would begin in 12 months. Um, it doesn't say it would begin in 2002.

Sure 3 months late.. I think the 2 aircraft a month fit out has actually put them back on track. I can't find any press releases saying when they would be completed in 2002.

QF have only said that it will be completed on all A333/744 aircraft by Mid 2005. So if its not done by then, lets say if they are behind then.

I'd pay more attention to the press releases from 2003 which had more exact dates for the rollouts including the 2 clas aircraft etc

And I can compare QF with anyone I like. An International airline is an International airline. They compete on SYD-LAX why can't I compare them?

 
aerokiwi
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 5:50 pm

So if Qantas is taking 2 years from announcement to action to actually implement its sleeper beds, what justification does anyone have to criticise Air NZ for taking 9 months to begin implementing its refurbishment?? Arguably, With a smaller fleet there is less flexibility, especially now as international traffic to New Zealand is booming.

So lay off, or, better yet, stop contradicting yourself 'Qantasclub'. And enough with the little jibes like being a "former bankrupt airline", "bailed out by its govt" etc etc. How does any of that add to the discussion? Aside from, perhaps, reflecting the borsih nature of some participants.
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 7:23 pm


Aerokiwi:
"So if Qantas is taking 2 years from announcement to action to actually implement its sleeper beds, what justification does anyone have to criticise Air NZ for taking 9 months to begin implementing its refurbishment??"

Qantas has a fleet of 30 744s all of which operate internationaly and have to be upgraded with Skybeds. Air New Zealand has 8 which is less than a third of that. They actually only own 4 744s and the other 4 are leased.

"And enough with the little jibes like being a "former bankrupt airline", "bailed out by its govt" etc etc."
Both are true, and are relevant to ANZ's survival and not too distant history/track record. Both affect it's ability to compete.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 8:24 pm

I am sorry if I offended anyone in this forum, I think in order to get back on track I just have the following to say.

QF is a good airline, but they just OVERHYPED the Skybeds so much before they actually offered any beds to the customer. (Look at CX and SQ, they actually Offer the beds on more than 1 route before they fully promote their product).

It is funny when you guys told me I can't compare CX with QF and other airlines, and now you guys say "An International airline is an International airline". But anyway, I think we should get back to the orginal product.

So what type of New J Class products do you guys think will succeed after the Slant Beds?
 
Sydscott
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:10 pm


"Just remember that Qantas had proper beds in the flying boats in the 1930s"

If I recall correctly QF was also the first airline to have a business class cabin.
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:40 pm

God you guys dont get it.

Air NZ isn't trying to pinch QF customers orginating in Australia, what they are trying to do is protect the NZ market to USA and Heathrow.

At the moment, Kiwi business people fly AirNZ to LAX because of the airponts program, but, for flights to LHR, they've noticed a lot of passengers switching to Cathay and Emirates. Now these are $10 000 a seat passengers, so they're kind of important. At the moment, QF don't offer skybed between AKL- LAX, but Air NZ know, that the moment that product come online inbetween those two cities, they're big spenders are gonna switch. The A380 isn't going to go into service on the BNE-AKL-LAX route so, all that jazz isn't a worry.

So yes, this is about competiton with Qantas, but it is about keeping the market they've already got, not trying to gain passengers from Australia. Incidentally, there are quite a few Australian business ppl who don't mind the Air NZ flight via AKL. I am one of them... works well if your a krisflyer member. Although I like the idea now that we up here in texas have a non-stop flight to America now, its still only a few times a week. Im not going to wait an extra day... im going to connect in Auckland or Sydney.

OH CX123... i think you raised valid points... but you must remember that your never going to convince Australians that perhaps, somebody from another country could do a better job!!!!!! Read between the lines.... im agreeing with you and im sure your smart enough to figure out who im talking about!
Cheers
LH
 
Oz777
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:58 am

Qantasclub.

Note your jibe about the leasing of the AirNZ B744's ".....they actually only own 4 747's....."

What has that to do with the price of fish?

Care to have a look at how many QF B747's are leased or subject to financing. And don't even look at the B767 fleet - BA one's included. If that is your benchmark then I would suggest QF is in deep trouble.

Perhaps the better benchmark would be fleet utilisation and as a direct corollary, spare capacity. That is the true measure of how well an airline is performing - and it's ability to be able to 'pull-out' the odd spare 747 for a refurbishing.

And while you are in the research books, look at the awards. Seems ANZ has nearly three times the awards as QF over the last 10 years on destination comparison (ie where both airlines serve a specific location). That speaks volumes for customer satisfaction.

Listen, love the argument/discussion - it just helps to have both sides of the data presented.

OZ777
 
Sydscott
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:49 pm


"Care to have a look at how many QF B747's are leased or subject to financing."

Ok. Here are the specifics from last years Annual Report;

747-400 - 18 owned or HP'd - 6 leased

747-400ER - 4 owned or HP'd - 0 leased

747-300 - 6 owned or HP'd

767-300ER - 17 owned or HP'd - 12 leased including BA aircraft.

So argue away on the facts.

"fleet utilisation and as a direct corollary, spare capacity"

Not to forget Yield, CASM and RASM!!!!!
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 2:56 pm


Oz777:
"Care to have a look at how many QF B747's are leased or subject to financing. And don't even look at the B767 fleet - BA one's included. If that is your benchmark then I would suggest QF is in deep trouble."
None of Qantas's 744s are leased and some are subject to financing.
A few 767s were leased from BA but the vast majority of Qantas's 190 aircraft are owned and operated by Qantas. You are right that this is not a good measure of competition but it does add more credibility if you can own your own metal.

"And while you are in the research books, look at the awards. Seems ANZ has nearly three times the awards as QF over the last 10 years on destination comparison (ie where both airlines serve a specific location). That speaks volumes for customer satisfaction."
Where did you get this information from?
2004 Skytrax: Qantas was fourth overall and best airline in Australasia. Airnew Zealand wasn't even ranked in the top 10.
2004 OAG: Qantas was named best airline Australasia and pacific.
ATW: 2004 Qantas named airline of the year again as well in 1995 (Air new Zealand last won this title in 1987 and never since.
I don't think there's any question about which os the 2 carriers has won more awards.

Anyway, the point of this thread is that Air New Zealand is not a threat to Qantas. Their markets overlap across the Tasman, but long haul-their routes are not head to head. All the other jibes are just 'we hate ANZ' fun. And let me tell you, there are plenty of us here in Oz who do.



Long Haul is the only way to go
 
Lufthansa
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:01 pm

QFclub and friends who insist on bashing AirNZ.

When was the last time you were actually onboard an AirNZ long haul flight on a 744?

Firstly, the best thing that could have happend to AirNZ is the rejection of the preposed alliance with QF because all of a sudden, AirNZ management have started doing their job and started realising that they have to compete.

Your are all right that AirNZ nearly did go bankrupt. But their health is a lot better than in those days and I don't think you guys are viewing them in fair light. Just for a second, forget Qantas even exisits, and look at Air NZ moves for their own merit. Okay they stuffed up big time in Australia a few years back but that was partly the fault of years of Ansett losses, bad union practices, Newscorp starving the company of capital and the Australian government creating a situation where it had to compete with a company double its size overnight.

That all aside, look at Air NZ recent achievements. Firstly, Express Class and Tasman Express. It seems they learnt the lession (and done what they should have done at Ansett) and it has paid off. It is highly profitable, its airpont memebers a very loyal (unfortunately for QF's domestic operation in NZ) and they appreciate the much cheaper fairs now on offer. Their aircraft are getting better utalisation (which is a big part of the cost saving LCC gain.... that and no of seats, not meals etc which is a common misunderstanding). New A320s and even some near new 733s for the interim period. Not bad for a company that was flighting for its very existance.

So now the biggest and most important part of their business has been addressed, they moved onto the second part of their business, Long Haul ops. Now, im very very pleased to see that NZ has ordered the same seat Virgin Atlantic use, which no doubt will be a big success. Obviously they're going to use the baltic blue and teal colours they're know for as oppossed to some of the crazy stuff virgin use, and this is a First class seat, not a business class, but it is going to be sold as a business class product... its going to do well.

And by that I mean in protecting their Home market. Their home market is all those NZ Bourgeois business ppl who are loyal airponts members, who, on their recent trips to london, have discovered the comfort of the flat beds emirates, singapore and cathay have offered them.(and not QF because they didn't want to make an extra stop in SYD, mel or BNE.... same arguement used why business ppl in SYD and Melbourne don't use Air NZ to LAX... despite the BA connection which isn't that popular with kiwi's, probably cause they can fill it with high paying americans instead) Presently, on the all important route to LAX, these ppl fly Air NZ, despite the fact that the Air NZ seat is older than the QF seat. Why? Because they get a truckload of Airpoints and both carriers arent using flat beds on that route. A great deal of QF's passengers on this route started out in brisbane anyway, plus NZ have more than double daily so you can say they are well and truely the most important carrier on this route. So, these premium customers, would happily fly Air NZ to heathrow if the flatbeds where offered. They, would also switch to Qantas to LAX when QF starts offering the skybed if AirNZ did nothing. So that is their motivation for the upgrades. They economy upgrades have been on the cards for a long time, they just didn't have the cash and had other things that demanded attention first.

Secondly, I can wait to see what happens when Air NZ gets their new long haul aircraft. All you NZ bashes and Qantas loyalists, are going to hop across the tasman and take a ride on NZ to try out the 7E7. (most likely to america!)

About leased aircraft. It's what is known in the financial world as gearing. A debt free company isn't necessarily considered a good thing, and won't be looked favorably by many analysts. Why? because if the company employed a healthy level of debt, they could substancially increase the return on investment to shareholders. The key is it must be at a healthly level. Leasing is one way of doing that. Borrowing (as both QF and virginblue have done) is another, and issuing bond is yet another. What the real question here is what is the cost of capital... in layman's terms, the effective interest rate they are paying for the use of that money. (leasing is really just another form of borrowing.... your buying the use of something.... hence the reason why you buy something the government allows you to claim depreciation) This is the key issue at carriers like Delta at the moment, who can't get good deal on anything thanks to their poor credit rating.

Pricing. The important thing here is what is known as "comparitve advantage". That basically means, in a given industry, (in international terms) which country/company have the advantage in terms of factor imputs as far as production is concerned. Here Air NZ clearly wins over Qantas, with its very high paid staff and high costs of operating out of Sydney and Melbourne. Its over 20% cheaper to get major maintaince work done in CHC than it is in Australia. That and Air NZ pilots are paid rather more modestly, (probably just fairly...they're not getting the kings randsom as they know they could be cutting their own throats....something that QF staff don't seem to be able to comprehend despite jetstar)as are cabin crew etc. The catering costs are cheap in NZ and the fresh produce there is absolutely world class, which is part of the reason Air NZ catering is so good.( and it is absolutely amazing on the long haul with a very high level of finish, right down to teal metallic green sugar sashes) So the arguement that Air NZ has to charge less than Qantas ignores the fact that AirNZ doesn't have to make as much money as Qantas to make the same profit.

Market segmentisation.
Air NZ, as far as most travel too and from Australia to the United States is concerned, only has 2 markets where it seriously competes for business traffic. That is Brisbane and Perth. PER-AKL-LAX works very well on NZ, without the hassel of transfer and terminal changes in the congested SYD. The rest of the market they compete in are more casual in nature, and thus more price sensitive. Given that, they should continue to sell their seats and if they can massage their yield just a little, this could potentially also be very profitable. As far as tasman express is concerned, there are far more business travellers who are kiwis that need to cross the tasman than Australians going the other way.... once again 'airponts' give them an advantage. Think about it. The smaller economy is far more dependent on the larger economy next door than the other way around. (no offence intended to NZ ppl)

So, if for just a minute you can put aside your QF feelings, you'll realise NZ are actually looking quite good at the moment. They're not trying to compete with QF on routes between SYD/MEL and LAX... they're just trying to keep their home market and they're about to offer quite a good product to do so. Remember, QF just a few years ago was recieving all these same critisims when it came to international services, particularly in economy. ( i remember those crappy light blue seats they used to have in their 744s) Air NZ still offer economy passengers 34inch seat pitch (and your PTV's i've heard, are going to be something like those on the virgin A346....absolutely huge!) , so combine that with the product improvements and i really think all this bashing comes down to nothing more than rivalry. Lastly, Air NZ has a very small market, and it isn't ever going to be able to offer the same network that QF do. But i don't think anybody in Auckland is actually trying to do that. They're just trying to do what they can do, and do it well.

Cheers
LH
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:13 pm


Lufthansa, thank you for your fantastic reply. I agree with what you say, especially about the need for ANZ to protect it's home market. The ANZ bashing is to a certain extent tongue-in-cheek, so please don't take it too personally. Trans tasman relations have always been characterised by a bit of friendly fire. What I said at the end of my last thread corresponds to the essence of your reply which is that ANZ does not pose a huge threat to QF as well, and I'm sure they are doing the best that they can.

cheers,

Qantasclub.
Long Haul is the only way to go
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:14 pm

I think the general HATE of Australians on NZ is due to the fact of that Fat Toohey who Fuc8ed up AN.

 
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:08 pm

Cz123, hang on their brother. Toomey was a scapegoat, the fallguy. He did nothing to screw up the collapse of AN. Lets get this thread back on topic shall we.

Regards
NZ1
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777ER
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:33 pm

I think the general HATE of Australians on NZ is due to the fact of that Fat Toohey who Fuc8ed up AN.
Our friends in Australia need to remember that Gary Toomey is a born and breed Australian so do the Australian's hate one of their own?

Lufthansa Welcome to my respected user list Smile


 
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NZ1
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:44 pm

777ER, well said my man.

Regards
NZ1
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cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 6:52 pm

See all the NZ people start getting DEFENSIVE!!! hahaha

BTW I am NOT an Australian so I am NOT going to get into this Aust vs NZ debate.

But I know that most Australians think NZ suck the blood out of AN back in 2001!!
 
777ER
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:08 pm

See all the NZ people start getting DEFENSIVE!!! hahaha Well all I was doing was stating a FACT which heaps of Aussies don't like to admit. Have you ever noticed that when QF gets bad things said about it all the QF fans quickly jump in to the boat to defend QF, even if what was being said about QF is actually true? Come on every fan of an airline jumps to its defense

But I know that most Australians think NZ suck the blood out of AN back in 2001!! I wonder how many Aussies have read the book on the Ansett collapse yet which states all the facts as to why Ansett collopsed?
 
cx123
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 7:16 pm

I know, the Australians only go themselves to blame!
 
Qantasclub
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Thu Jul 01, 2004 10:38 pm


Gary Toomey was just a fallguy trying to do an impossible job.

Air New Zealand under the leadership of that idiot Sir Selwyn Cushing under delusions of national granduer, vetoed SIA's vote and bought all of Ansett, an airline in need of funds ANZ did not have, resulting in it's systematic demise and the loss of 15000 jobs.
When asked about Ansett staff entitlements, the ANZ's board's response was :"we have no responsibility to the staff of Ansett"
These are the FACTS.

Long Haul is the only way to go
 
aerohottie
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:33 am

Qantasclub,

your reply was fact right up till the last sentence

"When asked about Ansett staff entitlements, the ANZ's board's response was :"we have no responsibility to the staff of Ansett"
These are the FACTS."

You failed to mention the full picture. The Air NZ boards replied that the entitlements being claimed before their taking of the second 50% stake was not there responsibility for a number of reasons, one being that the retirement schemes etc etc were under Ansett's name and Ansetts liability, not Air NZ's. And also that it was upto Ansett to have contributed to these funds before Air NZ came onboard. Air NZ were only responsible for the contributions after taking the second 50% stake (which has been fully paid).
What?
 
Sydscott
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RE: Increased Competition From Air New Zealand

Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:47 am


" I wonder how many Aussies have read the book on the Ansett collapse yet which states all the facts as to why Ansett collopsed?"

I have. But as far as I'm concerned AN's demise is easily explained by the following factors -

1. Bad workplace practices by some staff and unions in comparison to QF's staff and unions thereby raising AN's costs and giving it a competitive disadvantage. (3 crew 767's were the prime example of this)

2. Lack of an interested owner or one that knew anything about the airline business before Air NZ came along. The only good thing News did for AN was appointing Rod Eddington to head it up. Air NZ's first mistake at AN was not appointing Rod Eddington CEO of the combined group.

3. Having too many flights and falling marketshare especially at the Premium end of the market.

4. Lack of fleet commonality and too many aircraft types.

5. Having Air NZ as the 100% owner without it having the capability to adequately recapitalist Ansett and carry on its own operations. A sale to SQ and a Billion $$$ would have made all the difference to Ansett's future.

6. Sir Peter Ables & Sir Selwyn Cushing. Let us hope that no more Knights of the realm come to manage our airlines. (Apart from Sir Richard!!!!!!)

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