upsmd11
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What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:10 pm


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Photo © Jakob Dahlgaard Kristensen



After looking at this photo of many of my favorite type of B767, I began to wonder is there a future for these aircraft at all? Would they make a good aircraft for an LCC doing long-haul trans-Atlantic or Hawaii service.

Maybe there is some other fit for them. I just hate seeing them mothballed if they have some useful life. I know they are getting a few years on them but it seems like they should have some useful life in them.

Regards,
John
 
lowrider
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:15 pm

I am sure that ABX, DHL, UPS, FedEx, Air Atlanta, and a variety of other cargo companies could find a use for them. A variety of large charter operators such as Champion Air, Sun Country, and Miami Air could use them as well. If North American Airlines had it's eyes on expansion, there is possibility there as well.
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Sydscott
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:20 pm


Convert them to aerial refueling tankers and transports for the military.
 
deltaffindfw
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:22 pm

Convert them into homes - it would be the A.net version of a trailer park....  Big grin
 
flamant15
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:28 pm

It is too bad because these were such nice birds. I have so many memories on these planes as I used to fly to BRU all the time on these puppies.

I think the best bet would be to convert them to cargo.
 
tommy767
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:28 pm

Its hard to believe that US carriers do not find them suitable for service anymore  Sad
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scottysair
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:32 pm

Yeah, this is not good for B767-200 already retires them now and will see in the future orders with newest plane of AA.
 
whitehatter
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:33 pm

A lot will depend on whether they are due heavy maintenance, and are the ER variant or not.

AA might not be able to offload them at the moment either, depending on whether they are on lease or leveraged against loans. That can take a while to work through.

Air Atlanta will probably be taking a good look at them for their ACMI ops and european charter work.
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Tasha
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:42 pm

Couldn't they also be converted to frieghters to serve cargo airlines, or the USAF as a tanker?

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ATA L1011
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:53 pm

A friend of mine at AA said they are in "temporary" retirement and suppose to be back in service at some point in the near future.
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whitehatter
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 1:56 pm

A friend of mine at AA said they are in "temporary" retirement


One good sign is that they haven't been de-branded! Retired or offloaded aircraft from AA normally get company marks removed and ocasionally the red stripe painted out
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OD720
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:32 pm

Most of the earlier AA 762's were converted to ER version. They might also end up in Africa, as many DC-10s at the moment, or in the CIS.
 
tekelberry
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 3:56 pm

AA hasn't retired their entire fleet of 762s. It's simply a reduction of capacity. If I'm not mistaken, AA could bring these back into service whenever they please.
 
northwest 777
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:23 pm

Sorry to dissapoint but actually they'll all be joining the fleet of me new startup long-haul carrier based here in SEA. I got a great deal on them.  Big grin
 
jamotcx
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 4:46 pm

Air Atlanta will probably be taking a good look at them for their ACMI ops and european charter work.

That would be nice to see, but I see a big problem with that. European charter carriers have a config of 2-4-2 on the 767 (BAL XLA FCA etc).

If you look at BAL 762's they have an extra overwing exit to the AA ones beacause they carry more passengers.


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Also XLA's leased from Air Atlanta ex BAL 762's have this.


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Photo © Paulo carvalho



I dont know what the rules are on the max amount of pax the AA762's can carry but hopefully it is more than enough for English charter companies. Or maybe we'll see 2-3-2 Big grin


Jamo
 
wgw2707
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:17 pm

These could be great aircraft for pilgrammage flights to Jeddah...

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NZ1
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 5:19 pm

Couldn't they also be converted to frieghters to serve cargo airlines, or the USAF as a tanker?

Great idea. NZ have just got rid of 2 of their 3 762ER's to Star Airways. They are in Israel right now being converted to freighters.

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NZ1
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JJMNGR
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:21 pm

Converting into freighters is not economically viable. This is very expensive considering they are B762. B762 are not good freighters. B763 yes but they are better freighters considering if they are brand new from Boeing. Also converted B763 are no good freighters.
It seems to me better option to be kept on AA fleet as step planes for future ;instead of buy new ones. Or as many said, could be option for other small or charter carriers.
 
upsmd11
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:55 pm

Thank you for all of the great, and not so great, responses. Does anybody know is the DHL/ABX 762 fleet was originally freighters or converted?

I know our UPS fleet of 763 was made as freighters and has performed well for our needs.

Thanks,
John
 
AirframeAS
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 8:58 pm

Are those 762's ex-TWA aircraft? Didn't TWA operate any 762?
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na
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:06 pm

One of the ex-TWA 762s is already scrapped. I´m afraid that most of AAs 762s won´t be flying a lot anymore. A 20 year old 762 with high mileage is not a good candidate for freighter conversion anymore.
 
dvk
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:34 pm

The TWA 762's were mostly sold in exchange for 763ER's while TWA was still afloat. AA has already replaced the TWA 763's with the new ones they got from Boeing last year. The non-ER 762's parked by American are not expected to be returned to service, as well as several of their owned 762ER's. As of their March annual report, I believe AA had only one parked 762ER which they expect to return to service at some point.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
JJMNGR
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:36 pm

DHL and ABX B762 were converted.
 
Greg
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:43 pm

I imagine AA was hoping to part them out as KC767 spares (but would structural parts even be needed for the firs ten years of service?). Since that's unlikely, who knows.

The 767-200ER's are rather unusual in that there is no real competition for them on the long-thin routes.....so I guess I'm surprised that they are mothballed without future buyers.

 
starrion
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:02 pm

Would ATA be interested in them as a replacement for the L1011's that are now gone? their biggest aircraft will be the 757 soon......
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ckfred
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:14 pm

My understanding is that the 767-200ERs will eventually return to service. Right now, they are basically flying trans-con routes, but they might eventually return to the thinner European or South American routes.

The non-ERs are gone for good. They were only 8 of them, and scheduling was a problem, since they were available for domestic service only.

Certainly, they are capable of flying trans-con routes, as well as Hawaii-West Coast (although they might not be ETOPS-certified). I would guess that a non-U.S. carrier(s) winds up with them.

 
JJMNGR
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:28 pm

Gentlemen,

With no ofense to the B767 fans, but I woulld like to sit down in a bar on day, ask for a beer and relax...than read on the can " recicled aluminium of a Boeing 767"...
 
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solnabo
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:54 pm

JJMNGR:
That was a good one!! lmao  Big thumbs up

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ltbewr
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:05 am

AA probably doesn't want to dispose of these a/c yet pending possible increases in demand and lower fuel prices. They could be used again for longer distance USA flights. I would assume that they are either paid off or the lease rates are pretty reasonable. These may be aircraft that are 15-20+ years old, so they may be getting close to needing major MX checks. They may not be as fuel efficient as other a/c they have and with current fuel prices, probably prefer to park them until prices go down. They are also not as useful as their similar aged A300's due the the greater cargo room in the A300's which is critical for a number of routes AA operates from the Eastern USA to the Carribbean.
 
richardw
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:15 am

Would some of them be good for relief aircraft if business picks up? How does AA currently operate standby/relief aircraft?
 
Spacepope
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:40 am

Define high mileage? They may be 20 years old, but they probably don't have much more than 60,000 hours on them. If you convert them to freighters and run them, say 1000-1500 hours a year, you still have another good 20 years of life left in them. Freighter conversion has just become a viable option since the conversion program for 762s was only started this year, with a few airframes. These would make a great replacement for some 707/DC-8 freighters.

60000 hours is not that much for an airframe, some of HP's oldest 737-3H4s are coming up on 60000 hours.
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RiffedAAMech
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:02 am

AA's 767-200's were becoming real dogs. They were still good airplanes, but were beginning to show signs of old age with some maintenance problems if I remember correctly.
 
whitehatter
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:41 am

If you look at BAL 762's they have an extra overwing exit to the AA ones beacause they carry more passengers.

I know about the high density BY ones, I was thinking more along the lines of the way FCA and some other charter operators are moving at the moment. Having a number of aircraft with a lower density/better pitch arrangement.

Now that Air Atlanta has got the major chunk of XLA shareholding they could be looking to grow that brand. Having a lower density config would also be useful for their other ad hoc and ACMI work for mainline carriers.

Knowing how Air Atlanta is growing at the moment, I doubt there is a 200+ seat Boeing on sale at the moment that they haven't investigated
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mark777300
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:40 am

hey if you think those machines will be put out to pasture think again! I'm almost sure that they would be converted to freighters in the nearer future. ABX Air could use them, don't rule out UPS and other cargo carriers worldwide. I doubt seriously that anyone of these will be scrapped any time soon.
 
dutchjet
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:01 am

Although the 767 is one of my favorite types and it bothers me to see so many sitting in the desert, we must accept that many of AA's 762s are very early build examples that entered service in the very early 1980s, making the aircraft over 20 years old - the 762 came into production when the 73S and 72S were in production and, sorry to say, are nearing the end of their useful life. Thus, the future for most of these aircraft does not look so good. I am sure that some may be converted to freighters (while the 762 does not make a great freighter, the conversion is practical and freight carriers like ABX have the type), some will go to smaller airlines or charter carriers or up-start carriers and some will be broken up for parts; I do not think that a large number of 762s will be used to expand AA's operational fleet.

The big question is the maintenance requirements of AA's 762 fleet, we may see AA rotate the in service and parked 762s for the next couple of years, and permanently parking 762s as they require D-checks.

The 762's primary role in recent years has been American's transcon flights, where they are just the right size to offer the frequency required by premium customers and three-class widebody service. There is really nothing in AA's fleet to replace them.....the 777s are too big, the 763s are also a bit too large and have all been recently converted to two-class seating (I do not think that AA would give up F seating on the JFK-LAX/SFO routes) and its a problem making 3 class service work on the 757s. When AA has the resources, they are sure to place a 7e7 order (likely to replace 762s and A300s) but until then, AA may simply keep a small fleet of 762ERs to handle the transcon flights.
 
PresRDC
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:17 am

My understanding based on recent AA communications is that the parked 762s are not expected to return to service. While it must make sense from AA's perspective, it is a shame from the passenger's, as it means a dramtic drop in three-class American Flagship Service transcon flights. As it stands, there are not enough 762s in operation to maintain an all three-class service on the JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO routes. LAX is staying all 762, but SFO is down to only two 762 flights, with the rest being replaced by 757s in the summer and 763s in the winter (owing to the number of seasonal European routes). The real shame is that there is no evening three-class flight from JFK to SFO, meaning that premium passengers are relagated to the drastically inferior 757 for evening flights (this includes AA 45, which is a continuation of AA's early CDG-JFK flight). For a fan of the F service on these three class flights (the area where AA's onboard service leads the competition), it is a shame.
 
bredman1
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:48 am

Sorry but the planes in the picture are getting ready to visit the Great and Powerful Beer Can God.
 
qqflyboy
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:50 am

Ckfrd got it right when he said there were only eight non-ER 762 variants in the AA fleet. They have been permanently retired. The 762ERs either already have or will soon be returned to the fleet. Not all of them were parked. One reason some may still be parked is the reduction in AA's three-class transcon service.

Although LAX and JFK have seen an increase recently in three-class flights, LAX to BOS, MIA and IAD are no longer exlusive three-class, SFO-BOS and MIA aren't any longer, either. All these routes were flown primarily with the 762ER. SFO-JFK is the only other three-class transcon route, and even it is not three-class exclusive (three are 762, two are 757).

I just looked through Boeing's delivery logs for AA. It says AA took delivery of 13 762s and 17 762ERs. I know AA only had eight non-ER 762s in its fleet pre 9/11. Someone mentioned that some of the non-ER variants were converted to ER versions later on. That may explain the difference. However, I looked at AA's active fleet list and they list only 15 762ERs in service. If we take a total of 30 767s, subtract the 8 non-ER versions already retired, the 15 762ERs in service, and the one tragically lost on 9/11, that still leaves an absence of 6 762s. Those six plus the eight retired, surprise, equals 14, the number of 762s pictured above.
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blink182
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:38 am

Would putting the 757 on JFK-SFO justify the reinstalling of MRTC? Let's face it, JFK-SFO largely isn't a leisure/holiday route.

blink
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dutchjet
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:49 am

Good point, Blink182, I did not think of that.....with the 757s configured with the less room through coach seating and optimized for leisure destinations, it really is not a good fit for the "flagship" JFK-SFO route which, most of the year, is dominated by business passengers. This is certainly a small marketing mistake by AA; shouldn't 738s be operating the non-767 transcon flights? I guess this is one of the problems with having the 757/A300 fleet in the LRTC configuration and rest of the fleet in the MRTC configutation.....the product is inconsistent.

On the transcon 757s, are the first class seats sold as First or Business? First Class on a 757 is very different than First Class on the 762s.

I think (hope) that AA will get back to all 767 transcon service out of JFK in the near future.
 
trnswrld
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:24 am

Yeah TWA got rid of all the 762's before AA took over. So in that picture yes those are all AA aircraft. There are TWA 767-200's flying all over the place now. The majority of them are with Airborn Express, and sadly one or two have been scrapped as mentioned.
 
infiniti757
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:18 am

ABX 76s are freighters but they don't have the door conversion that most freighters have, only the roller floor. Instead they use a special container that fits throught the doorway.
Give me the luxuries in life and I will gladly do without the necessities. (Frank Lloyd Wright)
 
PresRDC
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:55 am

AA Transcon 757s:

They are sold as F/Y class, with the F class meal service being a step-up from regular domestic F (separate appetizer and salad on the transcon), but a step down from F on the 762s (no DVD players, footrests, premium food/wine). I've done quite a few JFK-LGB-JFK and JFK-SNA-JFK flights and the 757 F seats are not very comfortable.

AA is well aware that it is using LRTC a/c on the JFK-SFO-JFK route. When the seats were added to the 757s, AA said they would be used only on leisure routes, but it was obvious from the start that this would not be the case. AA simply has too many 757s to limit them solely to leisure routes. Those of us AA fliers based in NYC are lucky, we at least have options. Those in BOS and IAD are pretty much limited to 757s (and a few 738s, which are better, but no 762s) for their transcons. I know of several people who fly down to JFK on RJs to fly the 762 transcon.

The JFK-SFO route is troubling because it has always been a premium route along with JFK-LAX. The addition of 757s is a shame. While there are still a few 762 flights, they are all morning departures ex-JFK, meaning that anyone wanting to fly out after the work day or who is connecting from a European flight, must make do with the 757 (all of which I have communicated to AA on several occassions). The good news is that, once the summer European flights end, the 757s will be off this route, replaced by 763s. Of course, come next summer, the 757s will, in all likelihood, be back.
 
22right
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:08 am

It is fine with permission to build time machine for retired desert AA 767s. I am no problem with it and be nice for people around.

"I never apologize! I am sorry, but that's the way it is!" - Homer Simpson
 
AM772
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RE: What Would Retired AA 767-200's Be Good For?

Sat Jul 03, 2004 5:56 am

Converted on -ER's, I think AM may look at some of them. Big grin

Cheers

AM772

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