Airportguy1971
Posts: 150
Joined: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:49 am

Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:28 am

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/040701/lath036_1.html

Finally Critter Tails in the midsouth!

DENVER, July 1 /PRNewswire-FirstCall/ -- Frontier Airlines (Nasdaq: FRNT - News) today announced plans to begin service between its Denver International Airport (DEN) hub and Little Rock National Airport (LIT) on October 10, 2004. The twice-daily service will utilize Frontier JetExpress' 70-seat CRJ-700 aircraft, operated for Frontier by Horizon Air.

Following is the Little Rock flight schedule:

Denver to Little Rock
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
4325 3:20 p.m. 6:20 p.m. Daily
4321 6:55 p.m. 9:55 p.m. Daily

Little Rock to Denver
Flight Number Departs Arrives Frequency
4171 6:35 a.m. 7:50 a.m. Daily
4277 7:00 p.m. 8:15 p.m. Daily

 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:30 am

This is very good more new service to LIT. It will make expansion more new flight out of DEN.
 
COTXDFW777AA
Posts: 314
Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 10:36 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:39 am

Now if they could come only start to LBB......
Texas- it's like a whole different country!
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:18 am

I think this could turn out to be a good route for us. Hopefully the people in LIT will take advantage of the service. We shouldn't have much trouble getting 50 pax per flight at least...hopefully more. Goodbye ONT, hello LIT! I know the flight crews will appreciate the LIT layovers for the great bar-b-que at least.
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:22 am

It doesn't allow for same day out-and-back business travel.
I doubt you'll get much premium traffic.

Just a thought.

Congrats.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:23 am

MSYtristar:

I agree about LIT being a good destination, but wow, they're being ruthless with the Fall schedule. I didn't know about ONT.

I think it's time we had a couple of announcements about new mainline service.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:31 am

Greg, I'm pretty certain that LIT-DEN is not a very big business market. LIT isn't really a big leisure or business destinstion actually. It looks like we're just taking advantage of the relative lack of service from LIT to points West. Sure, you have WN to HOU,DAL,PHX, CO to IAH, and AA/DL to DFW, but that's pretty much it. We'll just see how things turn out.
 
GSPSPOT
Posts: 2246
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:44 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:12 am

Do those larger RJ's have "first class" cabins? I thought I read somewhere that they did...
Finally made it to an airline mecca!
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:12 am

To be honest, I was rather surprised by the Little Rock announcement, I can only assume that Frontier has indentified an unserved niche market and that there is a profit to be make on connecting Little Rock with Denver and west coast destinations.
 
stock1985
Posts: 66
Joined: Thu Sep 04, 2003 12:47 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:23 am

Well, so much for no new destinations this year by Frontier. Could this mean that they are looking at starting the Tulsa service they said they were looking into almost 3 years ago now. I definitely know that TUL can support more competition with United's 4-5 flights a day in this huge market. Flights, even with 14 day advance, often run over $500 a piece. Well, i hope Frontier or Frontier JetExpress can fill the void!
 
ScottB
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 3:47 am

Forgive me if I fail to see the wisdom in starting service to LIT. There are several cities unserved by Frontier which are a similar (or shorter) distance from DEN and have more traffic at comparable fare levels (say, within about 10%); for example, SAT, TUL, SBA, MEM, MSN, MSO, DSM, etc. I will be the first to admit that non-stop service and lower fares will generate some O&D traffic, but trying to fill high-CASM CRJ-700's with low-yield connecting traffic, at yields largely controlled by WN (connecting through both LAS and PHX), does not seem to me to be a recipe for success, especially in light of the fact that Frontier seems not to have been able to make a go of it on DEN-ONT (or DEN-OAK), which is also fundamentally stronger than DEN-LIT.
 
Tom in NO
Posts: 6725
Joined: Thu Nov 11, 1999 10:10 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:13 am

I agree with Scottb's thoughts. My first choice would have been MEM, followed by SAT.

I'm also a little disappointed by the withdrawal from my hometown airport, ONT. With the recent growth of traffic at LGB, and the other LAX periphery airports doing well, I'm a little curious as to the thought process there. I would also go as far as to say that ONT-DEN should be able to support mainline flights, which would also give UA some good competition on that route.

Tom at MSY
"The criminal ineptitude makes you furious"-Bruce Springsteen, after seeing firsthand the damage from Hurricane Katrina
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:21 am

Scottb:

(i) Presently, here is no service between DEN/LIT.

(ii) UAL has a big presence DEN/SAT, and has recently added more.

(iii) MEM would be another head to head with NWAC, and Frontier has just come out of one of those.

(iv) DEN/OAK was back in the days of Mesa flying. I assume you know what that means.

(v) DEN/ONT was doing okay, but I would guess - stress "guess" - that it was felt the RJ's could be used to better value DEN/LIT.

(vi) DSM has not been awfully successful for Midwest. I believe (?) they have just canceled some service from there.

(vii) TUL, SBA and MSN are pretty much much of a muchness for Frontier compared with LIT.

(viii) A key feature of the LIT service is the connectivity to the Mexican flights. This suggests to me (and heck, i could be wrong) that Frontier has indications from their vacation packagers that there is a market for Mexico vacationers from LIT.

cheers

mariner

[Edited 2004-07-01 21:43:20]
aeternum nauta
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 4:41 am

Looks like you can conduct business in Little Rock or Denver, the flights seem to support a full day in either city... so what do you mean you can't do a day trip?

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
Cactus739
Posts: 2245
Joined: Mon Jan 19, 2004 6:41 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:01 am

Departures from Denver are at 320pm and 655pm... there's no AM flight to get you into Little Rock in the mid morning then allow you to leave Little Rock back to Denver late that day.....

You can't fix stupid.... - Ron White
 
flashmeister
Posts: 2671
Joined: Fri Apr 28, 2000 4:32 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:45 am

I don't see anything on ONT service (or the future lack thereof). Details? Completely gone? When?
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:12 am

Flashmeister:

According to the booking page on the website, ONT ends October 9. LIT starts October 10.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:18 am

doh, was looking at the wrong city pair in Worldspan! my bad!

United did OK when they flew LIT-DEN... the planes used to stop in Tulsa & Springfield, Missouri if my memory is correct.

-n
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
ScottB
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:44 am

Flashmeister-

Try to book a flight from DEN to ONT in, say, November. I doubt it's actually sold out.

Mariner-

(i) I did mention this, and non-stop flights with lower fares will stimulate *some* traffic, but I doubt the O&D will fill 70% of 140 seats each way per day at acceptable yields. Who knows, maybe they were trying to beat United to the route (Skywest is introducing CR7's as United Express).

(ii) Well, UA's presence on DEN-AUS is comparable to their presence on DEN-SAT, but that didn't keep F9 from adding AUS. SAT is still a substantially larger market than LIT *and* it (like AUS) could likely support service to Mexican beach destinations).

(iii) I wouldn't have picked MEM given the track record of LCC's there, either, but it's not like LIT is an easy market, either, due to its small size and position of WN as the largest carrier in the market.

(iv) F9 has re-established STL which was discontinued as a Mesa city as well. Granted, AA pulled down the STL hub, but I don't exactly see why Mesa's poor performance in OAK would mean that Horizon couldn't do better.

(v) Better traffic/yields from LIT than ONT? I don't see it.

(vi) I'm not saying that DSM is a great performer. I'm saying that LIT is weaker for O&D than DSM.

(vii) What's much of a muchness?

(viii) Maybe, but if CO and/or AA choose to match Mexico fares from LIT, it's much shorter to go to Mexico via IAH or DFW.

Like I said, I don't get it, but I don't work there. Maybe they've got a big corporate customer who REALLY wanted flights to LIT.
 
FATFlyer
Posts: 4446
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 4:12 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:48 am

Interesting, I hope it works out.

A bit of a surprise to see LIT since F9 has not started FAT-DEN service; there has been a $1 million subsidy package available for FAT flights. The Fresno MSA has roughly 834,000 people vs LIT's MSA of 622,000.

The retail industry seems to be discovering the Fresno area is not what the analysts have thought as more high end retailers keep planning or opening stores. I keep thinking 1 or 2 airlines might notice the area's upward trends also.
"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness." - Mark Twain
 
GulfstreamGuy
Posts: 625
Joined: Sat Jul 03, 1999 6:30 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 7:51 am

I hope it works out. We (LIT) had service by Frontier (way back in the very early 80s by the "old" Frontier) before to DEN and they lost money because of UA service there... So they pulled out. Then UA pulled out in April 1996 (see pics below) because they lost so much money on the DEN run also. A few years later UA Express tried that route again, and it failed as well. So like I said I sure hope it works out for them. I would love to see Frontier succeed in LIT.

Last 2 UA DEN flts from LIT..


MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jason W. Hamm




MyAviation.net photo:
Click here for bigger photo!
Photo © Jason W. Hamm




Here's the story about the new service from our local CBS affliate.. KTHV
http://www.kthv.com/news/news.aspx?storyid=10418

GulfstreamGuy

"If we couldn't laugh, we would all go insane. " -Jimmy Buffett
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:00 am

I don't see with both pictures aren't not working at all and can you resent me with their link?
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:26 am

Scottb:

The first - and perhaps most important - point to make is that clearly, Frontier is making extremely extensive adjustments to the Fall schedule, more so than any other year.

Basically, until this morning's news, all we knew about were the cuts and changes. LIT becomes the first new service announced.

(As someone noted above, it was also a mild surprise, given that Frontier had said there would be no new cities this year).

Now, LIT may be the only new city (or not) but it won't be the only new route. If it were, then three or four of the A319's would be sitting around doing nothing. Which (a) doesn't sound like Frontier, and (b) would be an expensive waste of aircraft.

There are many puzzles that have not been answered - yet. Example: what will happen to the 2 x LGA slots when DEN/LGA is reduced to 2 x daily?

Frontier may just give them up, but the slots were a tad difficult to get, so that would seem odd, too. They may assign them to a new city - but can they assign them to a new city? (I am NOT suggesting LIT/LGA).

So - it's difficult to see the big picture.

Specifically, though: LIT is the only new (Frontier) city that is advertising fares to Mexico as part of the introductory deals. Again, this suggests to me that Frontier has information that I don't have.

Then again, who would have guessed that BNA/DEN (even or especially against UAL) would do so well right out of the gate?

I note also that many (most) DEN/BNA flights are already close to full for the last two weeks of November and half of December. There may be a greater population at BNA than LIT, but bigger cities than BNA are not yet showing this level of strong advance booking - except Mexico and Florida.

Which raises the next puzzle - and you have I have crossed swords on this before - how will they get the A319 to BNA for the CUN service?

Answer: we don't know. Or I don't. Yet.

SAT: I have long hoped that Frontier would start DEN/SAT. I have to assume that they haven't because they know rather more about the market than I do.

AUS: AUS gets an upgrade of equipment in the Fall schedule. And - from somewhere - will have to have the A319 for AUS/CUN.

ONT: This was a surprise to me. As I said, I had thought it was doing okay. I don't know why they've dropped it, but, then again, DEN/ONT is a Ted route - and Ted has been trashing fares to keep the load factors up. However well ONT may have been doing, perhaps the economics of the RJ don't work is this lowered fare environment.

MEM: Maybe you wouldn't have picked MEM, but it was in your list of cities preferable to LIT. I'd avoid it like the plague.

OAK: for whatever reason, the Bay area is not especially strong for Frontier. SJC is very good, but SFO is less so. Maybe because of UAL flying hub to hub SFO/DEN?

For personal reasons, I'd like to see Frontier return to OAK. Then again, since there are only nine aircraft in the Express fleet, they can't fly everywhere.

STL: I agree. But it came back as mainline, not express. I also suspect that STL is also part of a larger picture that we can't yet see. STL/CUN suggests this, as well as comments in the DOT submissions for STL/CUN.

General: I checked the government stats. The average fare paid for round trip LIT/DEN (for the last available period) was $418. This compares with BNA/DEN at $407 and OKC/DEN at $351.

Lastly: "Much of a muchness"? An old English term, meaning "much the same." Similar to the PNG Pidgin: "all the same belong different."

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
NW7E7
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:43 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:33 am

WOW!!!! Wow!  Wow!

What did I tell you guys the other day in some of the other posts. DEN fit in to LIT's route structure perfectly. It will open up part of the west but it will not compete with WN directly. Good Job Frontier!! One question is where will the ticket counter be and what gate will they use, all of them are being used now due to passenger screening expansion???

NW7E7
 
AA 737-800
Posts: 176
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 6:26 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:28 am

I second CoTXDFW777AA's opinion, we here in Lubbock need more service to points north and west. Frontier or United Express out of Denver could do pretty well competing against a few Southwest flights to ABQ, LAS, and ELP. But if you all thought LIT was improbable, LBB gets even less respect.
Civil engineering isn't about making things perfect...just better.
 
MikeTheActuary
Posts: 67
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 1:52 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:39 am

I can't help but wonder if part of F9's decision may have been influenced by all the Shelby County, Tennessee license plates you see in the parking lots at BNA and LIT.

I wouldn't operate a LCC out of MEM, but I'd consider the already-demonstrated willingness of Memphians to drive to LIT and BNA to get some LUV-ly airfares.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:51 am

Mariner-

Are you sure about those "full" DEN-BNA flights the last two weeks of November? They're happy to sell me a round-trip ticket for about $335 including taxes on the peak travel days (Wed/Sun) for the Thanksgiving weekend; this is not much higher than the introductory fare levels on days when availability of discounted seats ought to be limited if the flights are indeed nearly full.

LGA slots generally are not tied to a specific city, so they can use the slots to and from whichever city they prefer, subject to LGA's perimeter rule. The slots generally do have times associated with them, though. They don't have to be used for mainline aircraft, either, so they could hypothetically offer LIT-LGA if they thought that were the best use of the slots (I don't think it is, either). Frankly, though, except in the case of leisure-focused routes, a single daily non-stop to and from LGA isn't likely to be especially successful given the limited appeal to businesses. And most of the viable/existing cities from DEN already have non-stop LGA service. Who knows, the reduction in DEN-LGA might be seasonal (since we all know September is VERY slow for the airlines) or they may have decided that the LGA red-eye was just too much of a money pit. The unused slot pair isn't terribly attractive (0600 hour arrival, 2100 hour departure). For what it's worth, BWI stays at two dailies but neither is a red-eye as of mid-August. Switching the BWI red-eye to a daylight schedule will take a plane off some other route during the day. Losing the LGA red-eye just means an A319 sits on the ground overnight at LGA

I agree that some increased frequencies or new destinations are likely, but it may well also be possible that the airline might choose to park some of the 737's (or reduce utilization) rather than flying empty seats for a month or two when traffic is especially weak (as Song intends to do). As far as I can tell from the August 15 schedule, the 733 lines can be flown with about 5 and 2/3 aircraft; one 733 ends its day in DEN just before 5 PM. The company info says 9 733's, so three get parked or retired by then (they're doing about 50% more flying in the July schedule). I did not look as closely at the Airbus schedule, but I don't know the current delivery schedule, either. But unless F9 is getting new planes, the already-announced seasonal reductions and increases probably correspond to a fleet reduced by three aircraft.

SFO/OAK are probably weak for Frontier because UA has a hub at both ends; it's tougher to grab people who are Mileage Plus junkies. SJC is far enough away to be less-dominated by UA.

It's very easy to get the A319 to BNA for CUN service; you just replace the regular A318 with an A319 three days a week. SLC, for example, only sees the A318 and 733 on Saturdays in the 9/26 schedule. The November schedule isn't public yet, but changing gauge on the desired days is the easiest solution...
 
MSYtristar
Posts: 7543
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:52 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 10:59 am

It would not shock me to see BNA get upgraded to a 319 on at least one of the two flights based on the performance of it's first couple of weeks as part of the F9 system. VERY impressive.

A couple of other 8/15 schedule highlights:

* LAS gains an additional frequency
* MCO loses one of its two flights (most likely a seasonal adjustment)
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 11:09 am

Scottb:

I didn't say the BNA flights were full. I said "close to full". This happens when Frontier takes away the "special fare available" flag on those routes. Even if it is only over 70%, to be selling that well, that far out, suggests that BNA is doing okay.

The two slots at LGA remain a puzzle. I don't think any of us know the answer - and I stress again that I was not suggesting LIT/LGA.

The 737's are already being parked - leaving the fleet. All but 3 (?) will be gone by the end of the (financial) year. Even with that, unless there are some new routes (as opposed to cities), some A319's will be lolly-gagging around. Remembering, too, that DEN/ANC is supposed to finish in September.

Now - they may do a "Song" - that for September, it may be better to have them sitting around rather than flying unprofitably. But October as well?

Sorry, but your solution to the BNA/CUN A319 problem doesn't work. It would work, if the BNA/CUN schedule stayed the same for each three flights. But it doesn't.

As it presently stands, there is an aircraft, presumably an A319, sitting on the ground from Wednesday night to Friday morning. Unless they change Thursday's DEN/CUN/DEN to CUN/DEN/CUN.

This is one reason I suggest that we don't have all the information about the Fall/Winter schedule yet.

Nor do we know if STL/CUN, AUS/CUN and BNA/CUN will be approved, which could also change things.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ScottB
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:06 pm

DEN-ANC operates as a red-eye southbound, so the seasonal end of the route really only frees up a few (5-6 at most) hours for an A319 to operate a couple of additional legs. If there aren't any Airbuses entering the fleet for a while, the exit of 3 737's covers most of the reduction.

I didn't see any DEN-BNA/BNA-DEN flights without the "special fare available" flag for dates around the holiday. That's why I don't think the flights are "close to full." And if the route is really a strong performer, you'd think it would be upgauged to the A319 to take advantage of the extra business where possible (assuming there are other routes which have demand closer to the A318's capacity).

I haven't seen anything public for a nonstop BNA-CUN schedule. I'm assuming you have?

And I was agreeing with you about LIT-LGA *sigh*.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:24 pm

Scottb:

There are three Airbi lined up at Finkenwerder (one bear, two birds) waiting for delivery - presumably this week-end. I forget the rest of the delivery schedule this year, but there is at least 1 x 318 (the 7th and last) coming in September. From memory, there are three (or four) A319's as well.

You are correct - today - about the "special fare" flags. All I can tell you is that they weren't there yesterday. Weird.

If you go to this link:

http://dms.dot.gov/search/searchFormSimple.cfm?CFID=4183939&CFTOKEN=22015125

Change "docket number" to "keyword" and then type in "Frontier Airlines" and hit enter.

A page will come up and you have to click on "reverse order". This will - at last - bring you to the correct page (I can't find another way to do this).

The proposed schedule for the CUN flights is contained within each submission. You will see that two of the flights go down at night, RON and return the next day. But the Wednesday flight doesn't come back until Friday.

So - what does that aircraft do? At present, the only other route it could fly on the Thursday is CUN/DEN/CUN.

I'm only using this to back up my continuing position that we don't have all the info yet.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

And I understood that you were agreeing with me about LIT/LGA. I just wanted to make sure. I didn't want you to think I had gone doollally.

cheers

mariner

ps: "gone doollally" - from the British Raj, in India. Meaning, gone crazy.
aeternum nauta
 
MAH4546
Posts: 24600
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:35 pm

Nor do we know if STL/CUN, AUS/CUN and BNA/CUN will be approved, which could also change things.


BNA/CUN and AUS/CUN will most definitley be approved unless they are contested. When it comes to US-Mexico routes, approval is a given if another airline doesn't contest and there is a space available on the route for another US or Mexican carrier.
a.
 
SHUPirate1
Posts: 3428
Joined: Sat Sep 20, 2003 2:53 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 12:58 pm

Here's a solution to the LGA slot confusion thing...what if Frontier routed a daily 319 LGA-BNA(quick turn)-CUN-BNA(quick trip through customs)-LGA? As far as I know, LaGuardia has no same-plane service between LGA and CUN, and this would be a good way for Frontier to use those LaGuardia slots...how about killing two birds with one stone...granted, both AA and DL already serve LGA-BNA (AA with 2 MD-83's, an Eagle ERJ-140, and 3 Eagle ERJ-135's, and DL with a pair of Comair CRJ's), but the draw here would likely be the opportunity to get from LGA to Cancun without changing planes...additionally, it might be a way for Frontier to finally break into an East-coast market that doesn't involve either their DEN hub or their LAX or CUN focus cities (well, this involves their CUN focus city, but not entirely, although that is the selling point)
Burma's constitutional referendum options: A. Yes, B. Go to Insein Prison!
 
ScottB
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:15 pm

Oh, the CUN-BNA scheduling is obvious from the docket. BNA is just a RON for the A319. Flights are probably operated (if you look at the proposed STL-CUN route as well) DEN-STL-CUN-BNA (RON) BNA-CUN-DEN. CUN-STL is probably a turn from DEN-CUN on the appropriate days.

But, as always, schedules are subject to change...
 
F9Fan
Posts: 513
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2004 2:42 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:17 pm

Did you notice on the 9/26/04 timetable they still drew the MSP-LAX route? As for the two extra LGA slots, from what I understand, F9 basically created those slots since they were timed to be outside the peak travel times at LGA, and I believe DL and AA weren't exactly happy about it. As for the extra LGA slot, have they thought about doing a LGA-FLL red-eye? On the above timetable, this appears to be the aircraft utilization on the one DEN-FLL flight.

Flight 386
Leaves DEN at 8:20 am MDT
Arrives FLL at 2:05 pm EDT

Flight 405
Leaves FLL at 2:55 pm EDT
Arrives DEN at 5:00 pm MDT
Leaves DEN at 5:45 pm MDT x6
Arrives LAX at 7:00 pm PDT x6

Flight 416
Leaves LAX at 7:45 pm PDT x6
Arrives DEN at 10:55 pm MDT x6

Now, it seems odd that they would allow an easy way to get from FLL to the west coast without any problem, but make it impossible to go the other way. In fact, the only cities F9 serves (even through its codeshares) that you cold make a valid connection to this flight are AIA, AMA, ATL (why the heck would you want to fly ATL-DEN-FLL?), AUS, CYS, MDW, CEZ, DFW, DIK, FMN, GCK, GCC, GRI, GJT, HYS, IND, MCI, EAR, LAR, LBL, MCK, MKE, MSP, BNA (another route, BNA-DEN-FLL, that makes you go, "huh?"), LBF, OKC, OMA, PIR, RIW, RKS, SAF, BFF, SHR, STL, IAD, and ISN. Now most of those cities are small cities in the Rocky Mountain and Great Plains region, but it also seems really odd that most of the major cities on this list are east of DEN. Also, these connections are extremely close, with most offering a 30 minute connection leeway in DEN.

I think you could delay or add a DEN-FLL and then run a red-eye on the FLL-LGA route. Yes, I know everyone and their brother does the LGA/JFK/EWR-FLL route, but this is one of the busiest city-pairs in the United States, and B6 thinks enough of it to propose 7x daily LGA-FLL flights. The route would be something like (west coast city like LAX)-DEN-FLL-LGA-FLL-DEN-(west coast city like LAX).

By the way, I did an experiment, and their on-line reservation systems won't accept the ATL-FLL route, even though the timetable shows it is a valid connection (all be it barely).

[Edited 2004-07-02 06:25:17]
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:53 pm

Scottb:

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, the docket specifically states seperate return days for the BNA/CUN service.

It does not go so for the STL service. It says (of STL/CUN) that the round trip flights will operate Tuesday, Friday, Sunday. If the return is to be on a different day, why would it not say so, as it does in the case of BNA?

BNA's will depart Monday, Wednesday Saturday, and return Tuesday, Friday and Sunday.

Which suggests it will RON in CUN, not in BNA.

Which would still leave a with the missing plane for Thursday.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
johnboy
Posts: 2560
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 1999 9:09 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 2:44 pm

If LIT, why not SDF?

I've always been curious why no one has, AFAIK, tried SDF-DEN out for viability (except in the remote past when Piedmont had nonstops).
 
dbo861
Posts: 864
Joined: Tue May 18, 2004 2:20 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Fri Jul 02, 2004 5:01 pm

"(vi) DSM has not been awfully successful for Midwest. I believe (?) they have just canceled some service from there."

Mariner~

Just because Midwest was unsuccessful on one of its routes in DSM does not have any thing to do with this. DSM-DEN has been pretty successful for UA, just about a month ago UA increased capacity and frequency to DEN from DSM. I'd think Frontier would look at that more so than looking at a completely different route if they were looking into expanding to DSM.
 
ScottB
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:42 am

Mariner-

You are beating a dead horse; you need to look at the flight times as well.

Sunday: Aircraft starts in STL at 1425, arrives in CUN at 1935. Aircraft turns at CUN, departing at 2035 and arriving BNA at 2310. Monday, aircraft departs BNA at 0700 arriving CUN at 0950.

Tuesday: Aircraft starts in STL at 1425, arrives in CUN at 1935. Aircraft turns at CUN, departing at 2035 and arriving BNA at 2310. Wednesday, aircraft departs BNA at 0700 arriving CUN at 0950.

Friday: Aircraft starts in STL at 1425, arrives in CUN at 1935. Aircraft turns at CUN, departing at 2035 and arriving BNA at 2310. Saturday, aircraft departs BNA at 0700 arriving CUN at 0950.

This fits into the days given in the docket; the Sunday CUN-BNA flight turns to the Monday BNA-CUN, the Tuesday CUN-BNA flight turns to the Wednesday BNA-CUN, and the Friday CUN-BNA flight turns to the Saturday BNA-CUN. You're thinking about it backwards.

The CUN-STL flight is probably part of another line which operates DEN-CUN-STL; the BNA-CUN flight probably turns to return to DEN. It's tough to say exactly because the flight times in the docket for STL-CUN are screwy.
 
alphascan
Posts: 795
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2003 12:04 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:17 am

Let's not forget in this discussion of "idle aircraft", that in recent conference calls Mr. Tate said aircraft utilization was scheduled to increase 10%. F9 isn't going to pull a "Song".

Mariner:

I am NOT suggesting LIT/LGA.

ROFL- Glad you cleared that one up buddy! I love dry humor!
"To he who only has a hammer in his toolbelt, every problem looks like a nail."
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:30 am

Scottb:

Your scheduling is predicated on STL/CUN being approved. Both AUS/CUN and BNA/CUN were approved today.

However, STL/CUN has not yet been approved - and may not be.

The route is contested by two other airlines. Similarly, UA's DEN/CUN - which they wanted to start in June - has not yet been approved, and is also contested.

Now - STL/CUN may - stress "may" - be approved, especially in view of the increased frequency. Until it is, we are dealing with theory not fact.

So we come back to my original point. We do not yet know the full Fall/Winter schedule.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
ScottB
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 6:46 am

"However, STL/CUN has not yet been approved - and may not be."

Absolutely true. In which case, they change the schedule around. If necessary, you operate DEN-CUN-BNA (overnight) BNA-CUN-DEN. The same days in the proposed BNA schedule still work. And it's not my scheduling -- it's putting the pieces of F9's proposals together.  Big grin

Perhaps it would make it clearer to state:

CUN-BNA will operate Sunday, Tuesday, and Friday evenings, while BNA-CUN will operate Monday, Wednesday, and Saturday mornings. There you can see the schedule works with a RON at BNA.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 7:43 am

Scott:

Perhaps (because of different backgrounds) we have a different usage of the English language.

I call it "your" schedule, because it is a schedule laid out by you, however much it is based on the (so far incomplete) information provided by Frontier.

On this same subject, in another thread, you said it was "premature" to be speculating on this. I replied that if "you don't ask questions, you don't get answers".

I am not an aircraft scheduler. "That" schedule, "your" schedule, "the schedule that you have laid out", solves the puzzle that I had with the flights, and the Thursday. And for that I thank you.

(Similarly, since asking questions about DEN/ONT on this thread, I have been given new information on that subject on another thread).

But is it the schedule that Frontier will use ("Frontier's schedule")? I don't know, because it is subject to certain variables (such as the approval or otherwise of STL/CUN).

All the evidence - statements from the CEO and CFO, the aircraft deliveries and retirements (as well as abundant rumors) suggest - stress "suggest" - to me that there will be other additions of other routes for the Fall schedule.

I have no idea what they will be. I have no idea if they will, in fact, happen. The CEO has already diverged from his statement that there would be no new cities this year. Hello, LIT.

Thus, I believe that the jigsaw is not complete. And until the jigsaw is complete, I cannot (or won't) gauge the merits of the picture.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
airplaneboy
Posts: 555
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 11:59 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:20 am

Hi everyone.

I must say I too was a little surprised by LIT, but nonetheless am happy that it's sign that we're still trying new things. I thought that we were to not add any new stations until at least next year, but this gives me some hope. Hopefully the winter season will see more new cities *crossing my fingers.*  Laugh out loud

Mariner-
"I think it's time we had a couple of announcements about new mainline
service."

I absolutely agree. After all, however wonderul QX is, our mainline A/C have our popular inflight entertainment system, as well as our awesome crew (not to say the Horizon's isn't! Big grin ).


MSYTristar-
"It looks like we're just taking advantage of the relative lack of service from
LIT to points West."

Hey Steve-- I agree. And though people say the CASMs of the CR7 are high, it probably may be a better or more realistic A/C to operate out of a smaller and very underserved market like LIT.

Tom in NO-
"I'm also a little disappointed by the withdrawal from my hometown airport,
ONT."

I feel the same Tom. Being from L.A. (and my mom lives in Chino Hills and has to drive to LAX or SNA to get better fares sometimes), I am disappointed about ONT. I did not see it coming. I do not know our reasoning for discontinuing the service, but it must definitely be for allowing us to be more productive elsewhere (which is a good thing!). I only wish we could begin mainline service there, so as to offer PAX more options (I've also always dreamed about BUR, though that doesn't seem to realistic  Big grin).


SHUPirate1-
Your LGA one-stop service to CUN via BNA is a cool idea, though I doubt many people would want to have a stopover when I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) there is at least one or two airlines flying a N.Y. to CUN nonstop. Also, even if there weren't airlines servicing that market, I'm sure a new nonstop by a major from EWR or JFK would make our service less attractive. A N.Y. to CUN NONSTOP would be awesome though! Big grin


Mariner-
"We do not yet know the full Fall/Winter schedule."

You are absolutely correct. We do not yet know the full fall/winter schedule. F9 is also strict about spreading future plans to its own employees, so even most of us "regulars" were surprised about the changes we already heard. We're full of surprises so to speak. Who ever would have thought that we'd establish a focus city and fly over DEN? We did and have done well. Then our CEO said we would not add any new stations until at least 2005, and now we have LIT. So who knows? Anything could happen.

I personally would love to see the following nonstop markets served:

1. LAX-RDU
2. LAX-CLT
3. LAX-MSY
4. LAX-RSW
5. LAX-FLL
6. LAX-PIT
7. LAX-BNA
8. LAX-CMH
9. LAX-BUF
10. LAX-PVD (if BOS is not a good choice to re-enter, especially b/c the new concourse/terminal has yet to be built).
11. LAX-MHT
12. LAX-OMA
13. LAX-CVG

Okay....so this is a lengthy wishlist indeed.  Big grin And although some of them perhaps may not be viable routes for our A/C and/or operations, I believe that some of them do have potential. Also, some of the routes are flown by WN (with direct or connecting service through LAS), and would thus allow us to take on some of the L.A. inbound and outbound PAX. Just a few thoughts though. What do you all think?

Happy flying!

Travis/LAX
 
ScottB
Posts: 5456
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 1:25 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:33 am

Mariner-

Call it my interpretation of Frontier's DOT filings and I think that will nail it on the head. And yes, it's premature to speculate. The point was to illustrate how Frontier could operate that schedule without leaving a plane on the ground for a day or so, or having to change anything around with the regular BNA flights.

In the meantime, just wait and see. They're going to need something to do with the new planes, unless they're already accounted for in the existing schedule.
 
User avatar
mariner
Posts: 18261
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2001 7:29 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:46 am

Scott:

That's what I mean about the differences in English language usage. You call it "your interpretation". I call it "your schedule." It means - to me - the same thing. It may not mean the same to you, but I'm not you.

"They're going to need something to do with the new planes..."

Um - Scott - that's what I've been saying all along. As well as saying "wait and see."

But anyone can dream/speculate/wish. Most people do. I am an investor in Frontier, but I have less than zero influence over anything they choose to do.

So I wait, happily, patiently, until they tell me. But if a puzzle presents itself, I shall always try to solve it.

cheers

mariner
aeternum nauta
 
NW7E7
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:43 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:21 pm

I would like to see these routes served.

SEA-LIT( operated by AS: You could connect to many destinations in the NW and Canada) If not SEA-LIT it might be easier for DL to run SLC-LIT on Skywest.

LAX- LIT( If XNA can get that service on RJ's then I'm sure that we could!!)

MEX-LIT(Mexico is moving their consulate office to Little Rock)

Mainline:

DTW-LIT(These flights are near full capacity if not full on NW.)

DFW-LIT(Frequently sold out. With the most flights going to this airport there should be some mainline service. DL ran mainline with 733 in 2002. AA stopped after 9/11.)

Any underground news about aircraft upgrades on these routes?

Thanks!
NW7E7



 
MAH4546
Posts: 24600
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2001 1:44 pm

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:28 pm

LAX- LIT( If XNA can get that service on RJ's then I'm sure that we could!!)

XNA's service is subsidized by Wal*Mart. That is the only reason they have it. Unless Little Rock is going to find a corporation to subsidize service to LAX, it is unlikely.

MEX-LIT(Mexico is moving their consulate office to Little Rock)

Moving thier conslulate? Mexico has 45 consulates in the US (Little Rock's will be 46), not one. It is a nice thing to have in a city, but it is nothing exclusive, and surely not something that warrants flights to Mexico City.
a.
 
NW7E7
Posts: 479
Joined: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:43 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:35 pm

MAH4546:

Hey a person can dream. Does Dallas or Kansas City have one?? If they do, I read an article that stated that they were going to place one in LIT because of it's central location instead of Dallas or Kansas City.
 
uadc8contrail
Posts: 1636
Joined: Thu Sep 11, 2003 1:23 am

RE: Frontier Airlines Announces JetExpress To LIT

Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:59 pm

I personally find it shocking that F9 is leaving ONT and letting that two bit airline(TED) to rail road these fine southern california people into paying more to fly thru DEN.......oh wait I see the bigger picture now......F9 is going to fly to LIT and get those high dollar flyers that fly out west............i bet that ugly bankrupt monster ran that poor airline out of ONT.....to bad they could not fly out of there and compete against jetblue......
bus driver.......move that bus:)