PlaneviewNYC
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Odd Approach At LGA

Sat Jul 03, 2004 12:22 pm

Aboard the LIRR this evening around 7:10, passing through Woodside, noticed a Song 757 moving from south to north, descending rapidly with its gear down, apparently heading for Runway 04. At about 1,000 feet, she leveled off, put the gear up, and climbed out. Surprised that they would be using 04 today, I dialed up the ATIS from my cell phone. It said Expressway Visual 31 was in use, and 22 was the active. Wind was 300 at 8, in a thunderstorm.

I guess it's obvious the 757 did a go around, but my question is why would she be approaching that runway when it wasn't in service, which had traffic departing head on?
 
skiordie
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sat Jul 03, 2004 1:13 pm

Baseball game might of had to do with a change.

Yes Mets!
 
UA747SP
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sat Jul 03, 2004 3:23 pm

Planeview-

The Expressway Visual 31 does look like an approach to 04, in fact, following the LOC for 04 until reaching the DIALS intersection, then turning to follow the LIE (hence, Expressway Visual) then curving around Flushing Meadow Park and Flushing Bay to land on 31. According to the current approach plates, at DIALS, the a/c approaching is supposed to be at or above 2500. Perhaps the plane was a bit too low at this point forcing the go-around that you saw from the LIRR.

The approach does seem a bit odd to me (perhaps, due to noise abatement with all the residential housing in Flushing, Murray Hill, and Bayside??) , but that's the way they execute it.

If you're an AOPA member: http://download.aopa.org/iap/20040610/NE-2/lga_expressway_visual_rwy_31.pdf.
 
RP TPA
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:57 pm

Skiordie:

Having had season tickets for the Mets back in the mid 80's ('86 series, game 6....I was there, and 18 years later I still dont believe it), I can assure you that ATC doesnt change their patterns because of Mets games. I can't count the number of times I had to shout at the person sitting next to me because of planes departing r/w 13 and flying right over Shea. AND....at other times watching aircraft banked to the left and then straigtening out 1/2 mile from the r/w 31.

However, once the US open starts (August?), it will be a different story. I seem to recall a story from years back where the winds favored a r/w 13 departure operation (flying over Shea and the tennis courts), but ATC had them departing off of 4. Reportedly some ATC supervisor did this in exchange for free tickets being offered by the tennis officials.
 
timz
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:02 am

I guess they don't go out of their way for regular-season games, but the only time I ever saw runway 22 departures was during a Mets playoff game some years ago.

If the Song 757 passed over the Woodside LIRR station then it was approaching runway 4, no question. The Expressway Visual turns well before that.
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:21 am

Wouldn't post-9/11 security measures be kept up in NYC as to aircraft within vicinity of a large mass of people? (ex: baseball games, football games, downtown Manhattan) Wether they are regular season or not? A Mets v. Yankees game is always going to bring a full-house.

Or am I misunderstanding some of these rules?
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
ltbewr
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:50 am

In your reference to the change in patterns for LGA and the US Open Tennis Tournment, this started to occur when Dinkins was mayor of the city of New York (he was mayor in the early to mid-90's between Koch and Gullinai and the first African-American to be NYC Mayor). Dinkins was a big tennis fan and wanted to help make the US Open to be as successful as possible, and thus wanted the noise from the aircraft away from the stadium area so as to limit the distractions to the players and the fans watching the matches. So he asked the Port Authority and air traffic control in the area to change the flight paths in/out of LGA during the tournments. Post 9-11 for obious security reasons, there have been significant changes in flight patterns in all of the NYC area, including over and near stadiums when events occuring and over lower and middle Manhattan island all of the time, unless specific permission asked. From time to time aircraft, especially those transporting US troops, have asked to fly over or close to Manhattan, especially over/near the area of the WTC site. The odd approach descirbed in the start of this thread suggests that the weather and possible errors led to a go around.
 
smcmac32msn
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 5:52 am

Ltbewr - Alright. Thanks for the clarification on that. I wish I could spot at a place like LGA, JFK, or EWR. They seem like fun places.
Hey Obama, keep the change! I want my dollar back.
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:14 am

Planeviewnyc: the problem began when the she was actually a he. Then he tried to land on a runway where no males are allowed. Well, you know how those controllers can be.
Cameras shoot pictures. Guns shoot people. They have the guns.
 
timz
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:27 am

"Post 9-11 for obious security reasons, there have been significant changes in flight patterns in all of the NYC area, including over and near stadiums when events occuring and over lower and middle Manhattan island all of the time, unless specific permission asked."

Airliners into LGA still go daily up the Hudson at 4000 feet, and arrivals from the north still turn southwest-to-southeast over midtown Manhattan at 3000-4000 ft, tho maybe not daily.

Do LGA runway 13 departures not make the usual turn to a 170 heading when Shea Stadium is active?

What other "significant changes" have there been?
 
timz
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RE: This Afternoon

Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:31 am

Mets were scheduled to play the Yankees at Shea today (3 July) at 1310; if you check http://www4.passur.com/lga.html for say 1500 you'll see the usual Whitestone climb off runway 13.
 
prosa
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 12:47 pm

Aren't flights restricted over all MLB/NFL/NCAA DI/NASCAR stadiums or tracks?
"Let me think about it" = the coward's way of saying "no"
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 1:22 pm

At 7:10 they switched from EV31 to LDA 22, so that Song was told he change course and climb for 22 approach.

There were landings on 13, 22 and 31 this evening.

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
PlaneviewNYC
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:29 pm

Excellent info, Phil. That must suck to be next in line to land and then have to go around and wait. The plane still seemed like it was too low and too far west for EV31. The LIE is about a mile south of the LIRR tracks in Woodside, meaning the plane should have turned right about a mile before flying over me. Instead, it continued descending LGA at least a 1/2 mile north of the LIRR tracks before raising the gear and climbing.

I guess we'll never know.
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:32 pm

A more detailed response:

LGA was switching back and forth today form EV31 landing to 13 departures, so that coul dbe en explanation why you saw what you saw, becuase they had just switched and the 757 had to change course accordingly.

The Whietstone As for hte US Open, that week in August, any Rwy 13 departures use the Flushing Climb, which menas that they jsut depart straight out instead of making the turn to heading 180 like on the Maspeth, Whitestone and Coney climbs.

Such avoidances are not made for Mets games, because the Mets don't have the money-backed noise abatement lobby that the US Open does, bottom line. Dinkins started that crap and it needs to end, I think.

In fact, as I've posted i the past, I've seen a "new" unwritten departure route for 13, where the planes jsut bank left right away and keep on climbing, waht I call the "College Point Climb". This inconveniences people in the town of College Point (where I live) fo the sake of tourists watching tennis. Nice, huh?

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
UAFAN17
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 2:42 pm

Which runway is partially on water, because most of the time when I fly into LGA, we land on that runway.
 
bigphilnyc
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:04 pm

Every runway except for Rwy 4 has water at the beginning of it, so your description isn't enough.

-Phil
Phil Derner Jr.
 
UAFAN17
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:08 pm

Sry I forgot what LGA fully looks like becuase i usually fly there at night but it is the runway facing manhattan Island I think.
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: Odd Approach At LGA

Sun Jul 04, 2004 11:13 pm

Oh my God!
I was in College Point Queens at the same time and saw a very weird approach by a Song 757 (probably the one you speak of). Very, Very weird.
There was a Met game going on (they were playing the Yankees I believe) but that had nothing to do with it. LGA was landing on 31 up until that point when I saw the lime green 757 come from the north. It was over the Hellgate/Long Island Sound area and was approaching the Whitestone Bridge with the gear down. (It was the total opposite of the Whitestone Climb) He came over Whitestone, flew down the Whitestone Expressway to the Flushing area and hung a right over Shea Stadium.
I can rememeber it vividly because my cousins were with me and they were curious as to why I was looking up in amazement. I was looking up because I lived in Whitestone for 22 years and I never, ever saw that flight path before.

PJ

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