cumulonimbus
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When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:37 am


I was wondering when and If Rekkof is going to Build some Fokkers. Also is anyone interested in ordering some?
 
whitehatter
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 04, 2004 3:43 am

When someone orders them.

Pointless building a white tail when it's the only product of a company.

Personally I can't see them managing to sell any in the climate of today. Too much competition in that sector.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
Capital146
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:08 am

There was a thread a couple of months ago by a member here (think it may have been Aviopic) who seemed to be heavily involved in the Rekkof project. It was stated that firm orders will be announced at Farnborough, which commences in a couple of weeks time. From what I understand, production would be for an updated version of the Fokker 70 whilst an updated Fokker 100 would be on hold for a while.

Lets see what happens. Would be great to have this aircraft in production again.

If Aviopic sees this thread then I am sure they will be able to provide further details.

[Edited 2004-07-03 21:11:39]
Like a fine wine, one gets better with age.
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 04, 2004 4:55 am

haha nice one Capital146  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

There is not much to add at this moment other then that from my point of view everything is in place and I really can't see why it should not happen at this stage.
Although I am not "heavily involved" with Rekkof I do have ehhh let's say a reliable source.

Indeed production will start with the F70 but if there are customers for F100's they also will be produced however this is not very likely as long as there are cheap ones for sale in my view.

The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
antares
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 04, 2004 6:29 am

I was told at a regional airlines briefing in Asia about three or four months ago that Rekkof was a cruel hoax, a fantasy web site that has suckered far too many people and falsely misrepresents itself as having received undertakings or expressions of interest from RR and LH.

Tell me it isn't so, that a workforce of 320 people are about to produce all these wonderful jets, and that the carriers are queuing up dying to shower it with their owners money.

Please produce evidence of a Rekkof booking of a stand at Farnborough. Please produce a chief pilot and a project engineer and legal company registration papers.
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:24 am

Just let them think what ever they want Antares.
As far as I know there won't be a stand at Farnborough but then again you don't need a stand for a press conference.
The work force of around 320 is quite accurate but I don't know about any queuing just that there are enough firm orders.
The company is registered in Lelystad, no need for a chief pilot at this stage as production should start in 2005 and first delivery in 2006.
Also Rekkof does not need a project engineer as Fokker(Stork) is the type certificate holder and that won't change.
The Fokker engineering department as well as the aircraft maintenance, component maintenance and material department never stopped working and are in full swing for things to come.
Even the chief designer is still there.
Guess we just need a little more patience.

The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
antares
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 04, 2004 7:34 am

Aviopic. It's a hoax. And it could be a costly one because at least one of the parties mentioned by Rekkof as expressing interest is likely to litigate if they don't retract.

Neither Rolls Royce nor Lufthansa have expressed any interest in this fantasy project whatsoever. Statements that they are could be seen as false and misleading, and could cause both companies to be interrogated by their home stock exchanges as to why the market hasn't been fully informed, since we are talking about the spending of shareholder money.

What do you mean anyone can call as press conference at Farnborough? Like hell they can. You have to get permission, and pay for a venue or you get ejected into the countryside.

Get over it. The Fokkers were fine jets. The decision to shut up shop was tragic, premature and unnecessary. But it happened. The design is now fossilised, and uncompetitive with the EMB range.
 
AirOrange
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Mon Jul 05, 2004 12:05 am

This is the Rekkof colourscheme (short after the collapse of Fokker) they intended to introduce:


 
JBirdAV8r
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Mon Jul 05, 2004 2:46 am

On Rekkof's website, a few of the images they use are actually ripoffs of a popular Flight Simulator F100-F70 model.

Decide for yourselves.
I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
 
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Buyantukhaa
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Mon Jul 05, 2004 3:24 am

I just checked the website of the Dutch Chamber of Commerce http://www.kvk.nl and Rekkof has been issuing annual reports since 1994. They also have a main office (in Mijdrecht) and a branche office. You have to pay to obtain the documents. I might give it a try. I just wondered, they already exist ten years. So if they're not building planes, then what on earth are they doing???
I scratch my head, therefore I am.
 
jwenting
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Mon Jul 05, 2004 4:54 am

They're scamming venture capitalists into investing in them on vague promises of "soon starting production".
I wish I were flying
 
planemaker
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:19 pm


Air France-KLM Discusses Fokker Planes
July 7, 2004

Dutch aircraft maker Rekkof Aircraft is in talks with Air France-KLM as a possible customer for its planned new version of the Fokker 70 regional jet, the company said on Wednesday.

http://news.airwise.com/stories/2004/07/1089235894.html
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:01 pm

German newspaper Handelsblatt reports today : "Flugzeugbauer Fokker plant Comeback".

As I wrote earlier Rekkof is not a hoax and is being planned very carefully. The owner of Rekkof is Jaap Rosen Jacobsen, which is a big investor in all kinds of businesses, including owning VLM Airlines.

Jacobsen intended to invest in a new Fokker right after the demise, but the curators and Stork prevented that. At the inventory-auction, Jacobsen bought almost all of the production tools for the Jetline.

From 1998 Rekkof tried to restart the line, but didn't got any help from Stork, as they are the type-rating holder. This status quo durated for a while, but was solved by mediation from the government which is silently backing up the project with this sort of services.

Last year almost all the suppliers signed a LOI to participate in the project. Suppliers included Honeywell and Rolls-Royce.

Also last year, the active marketing of the product was started by Ruud Kleinendorst and as we all have read here, airlines like Lufthansa, SAS and Air France-KLM were said to be interested.

Still, despite having contacts in Rekkof, I have my fingers crossed on what's going to happen.

Time will tell!

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
Fokker50
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:25 am

Well, I know some orders are from LH, Austrian, SAS and others..., their purpose is to be the number 1 in the regional market with their Rekkof 70 and Rekkof 100, and in a future, revitalize the project of Fokker, the Fokker 130, or Rekkof 130.

cheers,
Fokker50
Bogota, the South american gateway!
 
antares
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:45 am

There are no corporate filings by any listed airlines or engine or component supplier informing any stock exchange that they have entered into any sort of arrangement with the perpetrators of the Rekkof fantasy.

If anyone has any official documentation of any interest whatsoever by RR or an airline would they please post them or the links to them.
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:37 pm

In yesterdays Dutch paper(Spits) also a big article about Rekkof.
Stating that assembly is planned to start in the coming 3 months and 50 firm orders from 2 airliners are secured(KLM, AirFrance in my view).
As i have said all the time nothing is final yet but the final word will come out pretty soon.
Also i said from the beginning that numerous little things are pointing in one direction only which is: it will go on !(sorry can't go into that)
It should be clear that Rekkof can't do this on there own, they need other companies as well for instances Fokker Services(Stork) as type certificate holder and to me it looks that everything is made ready the last couple of months to have a go as soon as the word comes out.

Dear Antares i don't think the decision whether to go on or not will be influenced because you think it is a fantasy.
We are in the middle of it and you are not !
Of course there are no official documents as there is nothing official yet but i am quite sure we will talk again in a couple of months.


The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
antares
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:08 pm

Aviopic,

I've reviewed the claims Rekkof has made and they are without any substance whatsoever. They do however misrepresent the intentions of other parties, which is rather risky in business, especially the website last time I looked.

I'd be especially careful about vague claims about what airlines have indictated or inferred they will order.They do have legal reporting obligations which if they were in any way serious they would have filed with the appropriate authorities. If you keep trying to draw in the names of certain airlines and engine makers without supporting them with letters of intent or memorandums of understanding you are going to end up with a cease and desist order from a court.
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:23 pm

Well see you in court then  Big thumbs up
Just reflecting our Paper !
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
antares
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:27 pm

No, we will be watching you in court.

When you falsely imply something on behalf of another party they may come after you on a variety of grounds, or they may ignore you. If I was in your clogs I'd prefer the latter course of action so that you can just dream your life away while the world moves on with people posting dream colour schemes and conjuring up orders here and there. Sad really.

But friendly warning, it can get ugly if your dream customers or suppliers decide to put an end to the nonsense.
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:44 pm

While you are "Jwentinging" (just found myself a new Dutch word  Smile/happy/getting dizzy )we start building if you don't mind.
I sure hope you have fun doing your thing but i can assure you we will have fun doing our thing ! Which is building Fokkers.

Please read more careful as i have said: I am only reflecting on what is in the paper already, not making up anything and i am not dreaming of any anything.

Here is the link to the article of yesterdays paper i am referring to.
http://spitsnet.nl/cci.php?rid=4&id=23611

Good day  Wink/being sarcastic
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
antares
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:53 pm

Aviopic,

I don't know anyone in the office who could translate the article for me, (and it is already late Friday night here) but if you could be so good as to do that I'd be obliged.

I'm looking for hard evidence that something is going to happen.

Many thanks
 
Scorpio
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:13 pm

I'll give it a shot.

Serious plans to build Fokkers

The old plans to ence again build Fokker planes have been revitalised. The company which should do it, Rekkof aircraft, finished preparations last month, and is now in final talks with investors and other parties. "The idea is to start constuction in Lelystad this quarter", says Commercial Director R. Kleinendorst in german paper HandelsBlatt.

The initiative for the project comes from businessman J.Rosen Jacobsen. He already had plans in 1998 to let Fokker, which folded in 1996, rise back up from its ashes. The decision to start production was at that point moved by a year, and not much has been heard of it since. Jacobsen confirmed to ANP that there are serious talks again, but stressed that there is still a lot of uncertainty. "It's a puzzle. Some of the many involved parties still need to come to a conclusion".

The plans deal with the Fokker 70 and possible later the related Fokker 100. According to Jacobsen, airlines indicated about a year ago that there is at this point no suitable aircraft in this category for regional transport. "Specialists further believe that the Fokker 70 is still state of the art today."

To be able to start production, Rekkof has to be able to attract at least 150 million Euros worth of investments, as well as orders for at least 50 planes.

The last part has been fulfilled, says Kleinendorst, by agreements with 2 airlines, which he declines to name. But according to jacobsen, who was unaware of the interview with Kleinendorst, his commercial director is slightly ahead of things. There are no agreements yet, but there are talks with more than 2 airlines.
 
JCS
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:37 am

Dear Antares,

You seem to be really sure this subject is a 'hoax'. I would really like to give you compliments with using this internet-complaint.
["Fantasy project"] I would like your story more if you could use less sarcasm. You know, many people are honestly working on this project.
You say Rolls Royce's shareholders should know this. But Rolls Royce's business in the Fokker projects is very small. Rolls Royce should only tell it when compliance says. When there is no need to make rumor, they will keep silence, and that's exactly what shareholders like.

You might see the difference with Stork. Stork is owner of former Fokker activities and its trademark. Stork-Fokker makes for example the A380's glare and many other specialized equipment and project for aviation and space-technology. Stork is also a shareholders company. However their business with the Fokker project is that large they need to say anything to their (Dutch) shareholders. So: see below!

I only translate the main issues:
"Stork says there will be soon a 'go' or 'no go' for continuing production of new Fokker a/c. Rekkof is trying since 1996 to re-open production. Stork, which is owner of all still existing SBU's of Fokker, is happy with the developments, since they take care for the still existing Fokker a/cs. Because of decreasing number of Fokkers operated, business could sincerely use some help, says the PR-man of Stork. "Since we are owners of the Fokker-designs, we will give contracts for this." So, this is a serious project with many contractors.
The German newspaper 'Handelsblatt' started speculations Thursday-morning. The German newspaper says the needed capital of EUR150.000.000,-- is almost settled and production of F70s and F100s will start soon at Lelystad - Netherlands. The GERMAN NEWSPAPER thinks production will start within 3 months.
Rekkof (CEO J. Rosen Jacobson) says this is quiet optimistic and Rekkof still needs to deal with uncertainties.

See article from largest newspaper in Netherlands:
http://www.dft.nl/servlet/ArticleByFilename?URL=http%3A%2F%2Fhomer%2Farchief%2Fwww.dft.nl%2Fxml%2F2004%2F07%2F08%2F00.irs6463977.xml

The Rekkof question (BuyantUkhaa).
I am in function to look into KvK. Rekkof Aircraf N.V. was registrated with its current name on 10/10/1997. It is a serious company with a (start)capital of EUR 9.347.872,45. It owns a subsidiary: Rekkof Restart N.V., which was founded on March 2, 1999.

You see, it is not a fantasy or hoax, just a long-term project which gets serious now. But still uncertain.
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:33 am

Thanks for the support JCS as a Fokker Services employee i can not go into the details myself because then indeed i might find myself in court someday.
Maybe some people will now understand that it's not me believing in fairy tales.
In my view those ideas are coming from another company that doesn't want the competition and there for want people to believe Rekkof is a hoax.
If i understand Antares correctly he is an EMB employee or something in which case it is clear why he wants the world to believe Rekkof is a fantasy.
No hard feelings though.

Let's wait and see what will happen...... as i stated all the time right from the beginning.

The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
antares
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:00 am

Many thanks for the translations.

I'm not an Embraer employee. I'm a 74 year old semi retired financial services advisor who continues to travel a lot. Until Qantas was privatised in Australia I never paid any serious attention to airlines as investments, but I had spent many years sizing up the shipping, trucking, railroading and general logistics side of the transport sector where in general terms serious value can be added to investment portfolios. And I know my way around the language of business. The body language of Rekkof is of an enterprise that is closer to being dead than I am.

However it is ridiculous to claim there is no alternative to the F70 (which I flew in as a KLM City bopper some years ago. Neat jet, but too small inside.)

The EMB range is state of the art, although over priced and in need of a capital injection to expand production, because if they don't there is a faint chance the Canadian government will bail out Bombardier and they will build something new.
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:39 am

I am sure you have more knowledge about the financial world then i but it's also clear that i have more knowledge about the technical issues.
Can't remember i stated somewhere something like EMB didn't make fine aircraft but it's far from state of the art(which doesn't mean they are bad things).
infect it is lacking a few things heavy users like KLM are looking for.
For example an EMB170 is a newer design but still more heavy then a F70 also it lacks all weather capabilities which of course is very important when you are based in Holland.

The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Alessandro
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:55 am

In my point of view, if Rekkof are going to be successful, they need to ship the
tools to China and set up production there. I don´t think it was anything wrong with the Fokker planes when Fokker went bankrupt, but the cost of manufacturing was too high in Holland.
Embraer been successful selling their E170 to Poland and Finland, so I don´t
think there´s any problems with their products...

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:30 pm

I did not say there were any problems with the E170 Alessandro just that it lacks some items present on a F70.

Fokker bankruptcy had nothing to do with the manufacturing costs but there were to many people involved if i remember well we had 16.000 employees at some stage over the different locations.
After the bankruptcy the last 5 F70/F100 were build with only 200 people or so.
The Rekkof organization will also have something like 200 - 300 employees and consequently competitive to every other manufacturer.
The original plan was to go to China but studies by financial and economical experts revealed that production costs in the Netherlands won't be to high infect the possible new F70 will be cheaper then the E170.
Also production won't be done completely in the Netherlands but also in the Tsjech Rep., Sweden(Saab ??) and Belgium(Sabca ??).

The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
Alessandro
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:38 pm

Sorry, so why did Fokker go bankrupt, if the manufacturing cost was OK?
SAAB got plenty of 340s and 2000 they want to sell or lease so I don´t think they would be to eager to join in on the Rekkof.
From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
LifelinerOne
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:04 pm

Fokker went belly-up due to very high development costs (developing the Fokker 50 and 100 almost at the same time). Combine this with complete mismanagement and a failed partnership with DASA, it was bound to happen one day.

Fokker didn't got bankrupt due to the manufacturing costs or non-qualitive products.

Cheers!
Only Those Who Sleep Don't Make Mistakes
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:08 am

Alessandro in my previous post i already explained why Fokker went bankrupt and Lifeliners post is good addition to that.
Whether you have to feed 16000 or 300 people makes a big difference.
I think the reason why Saab might be a partner is given by yourself, as the 340 and 2000 doesn't sell they might be looking for something else.
In the paper Sweden was mentioned therefore i placed ??? behind the name of Saab because i don't really know, do you know any other candidate in Sweden ?
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist
 
a300
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:32 pm

A good candidate for the F100 is Iran Air. They bought six of them new in the early 1990s. One was lost during a forced landing near IFN. Due to the insane American embargo, IR cannot buy Airbus or Boeing. They recently bought some new Tu 204s. The F100 would be a great choice, as many of the IR sectors are between 60 to 120 minutes. For the F70, Iran Aseman Airlines is a candidate. The have operated the F28 for over 24 years. They just bought a few second hand F100s from Korean Air and a French company. The F70 is good for them as they fly many of the internal thin routes to places such as Bam and Rafsanjan. When Fokker was going bankrupt, Iran attempted to buy the line. Obviously that did not happen.
Boland Aseman Jayegah Man Ast.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:17 pm

As much as I would love to see more Fokker 70s and 100s, its pointless to even think of building them. Boeing is barely selling its 717 and Airbus can't sell its A318 and both of those manufactures have a new design (well sort of).
 
Alessandro
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:52 am

Volvo makes parts to airplane engines. No, I don´t think SAAB will get into the
regional aircraft biz again. They´re sub-contractor to A380 and sell the Gripen
fighter, more money in that biz.
I still think manufacturing cost (real estate and salary is expensive in Holland
compared to countries like PRC and Iran).
As for Iran building them, I think they´re more interested in cultivating their
Russian and Ukrainan contacts than buying Fokkers.

From New Yorqatar to Califarbia...
 
aviopic
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RE: When Is Rekkof Going To Produce Those Fokkers?

Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:02 am

To A300: First my question to Alessandro was who might be the partner in Sweden not who a possible customer might be.
The embargo is also in place for the Fokkers because it is equipped with US avionics mainly that is why they bought the Tu's.
For the same reason they didn't manage to get 10 ex- US Airw. from the dessert which was the first plan before they bought the Tu's.

To HlywdCatft(can't you choose another name  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Sad It is the market asking for F70's that is why they might start building them again and not the other way around.
The 717 and A318 are both fine A/C but as you pointed out(sort of) the 717 is an older design then the F70 and the A318 is way to heavy.

Nobody is thinking anything but just waiting for the final word as everything is in place to start already.
The truth lives in one’s mind, it doesn’t really exist