FlyPNS1
Topic Author
Posts: 5258
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AF Axes CVG Again.......

Wed Jul 07, 2004 10:14 pm

Air France is once again cancelling their CDG-CVG service beginning in September. The route will be cancelled indefinitely.

http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/07/07/biz_biz1fran.html

DL will continue to fly the route daily.
 
flpuck6
Posts: 2047
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 1999 12:32 am

RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:01 pm

In other words a SUSPENSION ... not an "axe".

It's weird, though, that they suspend the route. The loads this summer have been full, although that does not mean that the route is making money!

The only thing I am wondering is that when they suspend a route, do they lose the "slot" or the "rights" and does it make it difficult to come back for the busy peak seasons (summer 2005)?
Bonjour Chef!
 
MAH4546
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Wed Jul 07, 2004 11:07 pm

do they lose the "slot" or the "rights" and does it make it difficult to come back for the busy peak seasons (summer 2005)?

They don't lose anything since the US and France are open skies and there are no slots, nor rights.
a.
 
scottysair
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:16 am

He's right and it is only for the tempoorary suspended service from CDG-CVG with AF.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:37 am

I'm surprised it too this long to happen.....
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
HB-IWC
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:54 am

Strange that this route doesn't seem to be very popular. During the partnership of Delta with Swissair/Sabena, the Brussels-Cincinnati flight was one of the most popular with Sabena operating MD11s and B743s on the route. Passengers seemed to prefer connecting at the relatively small CVG hub rather than at ATL. I guess times have changed. Or are there other reasons why Air France is suspending?

 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:18 pm

Keep in mind that DL also flies this route. There are two flights a day. When Sabena flew CVG-BRU...they had the route to themselves as DL didn't fly it.

If AF flew CVG-CDG by themselves and DL routed all its customers to them, I'm pretty sure AF would do fine. I just don't think CVG is large enough to support two CVG-CDG flights (except for maybe a few peak summer months).

 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:20 pm

Another thing to consider is the arrival of KLM into SkyTeam and DL's launch of CVG-AMS. Once KLM is fully in SkyTeam, it's likely some of the traffic that currently connects through CDG will be routed through AMS instead. This may also help to explain the reduced need for double daily service to CDG.

 
sleak76
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:04 pm

MAH4546,
Correct me if I'm wrong:

I can see AF not loosing the 'right' to fly into CVG due to open skies, but surely they can loose their 'slot' allocation if they dont use it within a specific time frame, as it only makes sense that an airport can allocate that slot to another airline (domestic or international) that wants to add another flight at that slot time (and the airport making better use of their assets by allocating free slots to those who want it, and not keep it for those who dont want it for the time being).
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dutchjet
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:33 pm

Is likely a capacity thing......2 flights per day in the summer, only one necessary for the quiet winter period on transatlantic routes; AF is still represented in the market with their AF codeshare.

Also, a good point is make above, as Skyteam consolidates, schedules will be adjusted between hubs and gateways. With AMS available as a another European hub out of CVG, pax have more choice as to connecting hubs in europe.
 
HB-IWC
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:34 pm

Looking at the schedules, it seems that the Air France operated flight is timed less optimal than the Delta operated flight. Delta's inbound international bank is around 3 p.m., with Delta operated flights from LGW, FRa, CDG, AMS and FCO all coming in around that time, connecting to the outbound domestic bank between 4.30 and 5 p.m.

The Air France operated flight, however, gets into CVG at 1.20 p.m., and is basically connecting to the same bank of domestic flights, giving passengers coming in on Air France an extra one and a half hour wait. I guess one would rather leave Paris later and travel on the Delta 777 rather than the Air France 332.

The outbound situation is similar: Air France goes out at 4.35 p.m. without really having an inbound wave of domestic flights feeding into the CDG service. All other international services leave CVG around 7 p.m., and are being fed by Delta's 6 p.m. inbound domestic bank.

So, I guess one of the problems is the less than perfect timing of the Air France flight, which is timed in accordance with the airline's international banks at CDG but is clearly not positioned for optimal connecting opportunities at CVG.

A solution to this scheduling problem would be rather hard to find without timing the Air France flight around the exact same time as the Delta flight. CVG is a smaller hub and Delta is basically operating 3 main hubs. Air France could conceivably feed into the evening hub at 9 p.m., as Delta once did with its now defunct second FRa flight, but this would mean a total lack of feed for the return service as the last major inbound domestic bank at CVG is at 6 p.m.

 
HlywdCatft
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:36 pm

They lost their slot to a Comair CRJ-100 hehe
 
FlyPNS1
Topic Author
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:02 pm

I can see AF not loosing the 'right' to fly into CVG due to open skies, but surely they can loose their 'slot' allocation if they dont use it within a specific time frame, as it only makes sense that an airport can allocate that slot to another airline (domestic or international) that wants to add another flight at that slot time (and the airport making better use of their assets by allocating free slots to those who want it, and not keep it for those who dont want it for the time being).

There are no slots at CVG. Airlines are free to schedule flights whenever they choose.


 
MAH4546
Posts: 24522
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:13 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong:

I can see AF not loosing the 'right' to fly into CVG due to open skies, but surely they can loose their 'slot' allocation if they dont use it within a specific time frame, as it only makes sense that an airport can allocate that slot to another airline (domestic or international) that wants to add another flight at that slot time (and the airport making better use of their assets by allocating free slots to those who want it, and not keep it for those who dont want it for the time being


There are no slots at CVG. I believe CDG is also slotless (or, if it isn't, it doesn't matter, because AF has plenty of CDG slots).
a.
 
SESGDL
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:12 am

"The outbound situation is similar: Air France goes out at 4.35 p.m. without really having an inbound wave of domestic flights feeding into the CDG service. All other international services leave CVG around 7 p.m., and are being fed by Delta's 6 p.m. inbound domestic bank."

DL and DL Connection's massive number of flights makes connections at CVG very optimal. DL and DL Connection have 1:00-2:15pm and 2:55-3:25pm inbound banked flights from the West at CVG, so the flight was timed for those passengers.

Jeremy
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:16 am

I believe CDG is also slotless (or, if it isn't, it doesn't matter, because AF has plenty of CDG slots).

CDG isnt slot restricted, but it was (and may still be, not sure... since the addition/destruction of terminals since then) pax restricted to 55m passengers at one point.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:51 am

I'm also not up on the current situation over at CDG, but could the collapse of the terminal roof and subsequent movement of operations, have a contributing cause to cancel this route along with the other reasons mentioned?
 
meister808
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 11:45 am

RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:38 pm

Hey... I would bet that the reason AF has pulled this is because DL has started operating the 772 CVG-CDG again. Doing this, it opens up a fair amount more seats on the DL flight, so that helps DL operate the route by themselves without 'assistance' from AF.

Now what would really be sweet is if CVG became the DL gateway to AMS and we got KLM service in here... that would be kickass.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
rockyracoon
Posts: 1008
Joined: Tue Oct 14, 2003 3:58 am

RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:12 pm

AF had just upgraded from an A332 flight to an A340-300 (fall to winter schedule), DL opperated their 772ER and 763ER aircrafter respectively during that time, assumingly filling in the gaps, to maintain that combined seating capacity.



peace
 
Luv767s
Posts: 260
Joined: Fri Aug 15, 2003 7:26 am

RE: AF Axes CVG Again.......

Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:36 am

When did AF change the time of the CVG-CDG flight? When I took it 2 summers ago it left CVG around 9:30pm and arrived about 11:30am. It was packed too. This was when the flight was a 767-300 and DL flew the earlier flight.

Anyway, in the past, hasn't the AF flight been off and on with the DL flight being year-round?
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