ND
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Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:39 am

Even though the last confrontation between Boeing and IB regarding the 777 ended in a PR disaster. Has Boeing pitched the 7E7 to Iberia? Has Iberia even made an official response about the 7E7?
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squirrel83
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:54 am

If they did, im sure or HOPE it will be announced at Farnborough
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DfwRevolution
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 9:55 am

Even though the last confrontation between Boeing and IB regarding the 777 ended in a PR disaster.

Calling the Boeing/IB fiasco a disaster would be like calling Hurricane Andrew a thunderstorm. That was an unprecedented "exchange" between the two after the order was signed. A manufacture backlashing at a customer !?

However.. I don't see why Boeing shouldn't approach IB. If I were Boeing, I wouldn't be expecting anything in return, but you should atleast ask. Heck I'd ask NW if I were in charge of marketing.
 
Iberia340600
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:37 am

I think IB's fleet renovation is complete for now. If IB was to be interested in the 7E7 I would not see any talks starting up about it for at least another 4 years.
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Areopagus
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:39 am

Sure, I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing offered the 7E7 to IB -- for full list price.
 
wingnutmn
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:42 am

DfwRevolution- I thought I read on an earlier thread that Boeing was trying to convince NW to be US launch customer.?.?.?! Something in it about taking the rest of the A330 orders off of their hands to sell them the 7e7. That was probably all rumors, but hey, I've seen and heard crazier things!!!

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Leskova
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 2:59 pm

Something in it about taking the rest of the A330 orders off of their hands to sell them the 7e7. That was probably all rumors...
While Boeing is most likely talking (or trying to talk) to NW about the 7e7, I highly doubt that Boeing sees a lot of A330s in their own portfolio as something they so desperately want to have, that they'll be offering lots of "buy-back"-deals...

Sure, I wouldn't be surprised if Boeing offered the 7E7 to IB -- for full list price.
They probably will - and after that, the negotiations will start... and if Boeing wants to sell the 7e7, then they'll reduce the price just like they will for every other big and important customer.


Boeing, just as Airbus, isn't stupid: both know that they cannot go to an international airline and say "this is our list price - pay it, or get lost". Both have had their respective PR blunders/disasters (Boeing & Iberia, Airbus & American Airlines), but I highly doubt that they'll be crossing those airlines off their "prospective customer list" for good because of that...

Regards,
Frank
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Ken777
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 3:20 pm

What would be interesting to know is if IB was seriously interested in learning more about the 7E7. A strong interest from an airline that loves B so much would be a good indication that the 7E7 is hotter than most people imagine.
 
Ruscoe
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:00 pm

Maybe Boeing can convince the Air Force to take 330 tankers, and use "by back" 330's to supply them.

Could take back Qantas 330's also and supply 7e7 (and the 777 like they should have had in the first place)

Ruscoe
 
rjpieces
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 4:36 pm

I'd say there is a slim chance of ever seeing A330s in the USAF!

Heck I'd ask NW if I were in charge of marketing.

They did! NW was rumored to be one of the US launch customers a while back....There was talk of swapping with the brand new A330s although I can't see that happening. And who knows what might be thrown onto a 777 order a few years down....?

If Boeing builds the plane to expectations, a whole sh*tload of airlines are gonna want this plane. It will repeat what the 767 did in the 80s--Opening up all sorts of new city pairs. With it's increased range and lower costs, the 7E7 could do to the Pacifc ocean what ETOPS did to the Atlantic ocean.
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:33 pm

I know everyone thinks im out to destroy Boeing, but talk of Boeing buying back NW's A330 is just the result of some high up dude dreaming out load. What the fudge is Boeing going to do with 10-20 odd A330's when they've just gone around parading that they're 20% less fuel efficient than the 7E7! Not a good move in anyone's interpretation.
 
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solnabo
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 7:45 pm

I (&we) know you´re not out to destroy Boeing, Rob Big grin

If IB is "a airline that loves B so much", howcome there´s so many Airbuses in it?? I´m curius......

Mike//SE
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starrion
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 10:45 pm

There is no indication that Boeing is going to have any problem selling this aircraft. With sales likely to pour in over the next couple of years there is no need to engage in buy-backs to convince airlines to accept them.

The airlines themselves will decide when to replace aircraft with 7e7 and can handle disposal of unneeded fleet types on their own.

Unless there are massive number of frames to buy I don't see boeing engaging in too many of these deals with the 7e7.
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trevd
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:25 pm

Boeing will offer the 7E7 to IB just like they would to any other Customer, although interestingly, IB does not seem to operate anything in this particular gage. They go from the 757 on up to the A340, so they either need something in this size, in which case the 7E7 is perfect - or they don't need a 250 - 300 seat airplane in their network.

If there is a need at IB, I'm sure BA will be glad to sell them the 7E7 but like everyone else, they will need to get in line as my understanding is the 1st 2 years production is almost or perhaps even already sold out. That's well over 100 airplanes and Boeing is facing the interesting decision in having to increase the production rate of an airplane before it even starts.
 
NYC777
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Thu Jul 08, 2004 11:31 pm

For the uninitiated can someone review the problems between Boeing and Iberia? I'm not too familiar with what had happened.
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Iberia340600
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:56 am

Nyc777:

Nothing really. Boeing just got pissed off after intense negotiations that IB went with Airbus to replace the 747-200's and then backlashed by putting out a press release in really bad taste. Bad move on Boeings behalf if you ask me.
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PHXinterrupted
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:38 am

Iberia340600:

Perhaps you should tell the whole story? Why don't you mention how IB jerked Boeing around and changed the terms at the last minute?

Regardless, IB is one of the worst European carriers, period. If you don't believe me, just fly on one of their filthy airplanes and try connecting through their hub, where chaos reigns and security is a joke.

Boeing certainly doesn't need Iberia.
Keepin' it real.
 
boeingbus
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:52 am

I really don't understand what was so wrong with that press release - if I remember correctly it basically said that the 777 is much more capable than the A340 and the only reason IB chose Airbus was due to fact they currently have A340. So what? Maybe they should not have done that... But heck its done... And I am sure both companies moved on from that except for poeple on here...

If IB believes there's a need new airplanes I am sure they will look into the 7E7 - simple as that.

Also, I don't think Iberia is the worst... I have flown IB - not the best experience but certainly not the worst - by far. Now, MAD is awfully disorganized and terrible laid out.
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andrewtang
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:56 am

The words used in the press releases sounded like a girl being ditched by her boyfriend when she found out about her enemy being together with her ex.

The words used was pretty strong and it does sound very harsh. Apparently the press release was removed from Boeing site. You can still do a search on it and it shows you a result. But the page for result is now removed.

Thanks to Cache system in Yahoo search. It brings back the original press release.

http://216.109.117.135/search/cache?p=Boeing+Statement+In+Response+to+Loss+of+the+Iberia+777+Campaign&ei=UTF-8&cop=mss&u=www.boeing.com/news/breakingnews/2003/030130g.html&w=boeing+statement+in+response+to+loss+of+the+iberia+777+campaign&d=0BB4D3CDB1&c=608&yc=42932&icp=1



[Edited 2004-07-08 19:01:35]
 
rjpieces
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:15 am

IB might have some good roles for the 7E7. Especially with the MIA minihub closing, the 7E7 could open up new routes to South/Central America that are too large for the A340s.
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:35 am

The press release by Boeing certainly isn't in the best interests of maintaining a strong commercial relationship with a customer. That said, PHXinterrupted correctly points out that there is more to the story than a single press release.

Boeing won't "confront" IB and if asked by IB to tender the 7E7 I've no doubt they'd be more than happy to provide an offer. However IB shouldn't expect them to provide any discounts or aggressive financing. IB looks to be going all Airbus and with no pricing pressure from a competitive tender from Boeing they're going to have a hard time buying anything below full list price in the future from Boeing.

Just my $.02

Regards

PANAM_DC10
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wingman
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 2:44 am

I also don't really see how the statement is especially harsh. Was it the right thing to do in public? Probably not, but IB clearly wasted a lot of people's time at BA without ever having any real intention of buying the 777-300ER, whcih I think by all technical accounts (including IB's own analysis) is superior to the 346. In fact, Toby Bright actually asked the senior IB reps if this was just a joke and they assured him it wasn't. In the end, it was nothing more than just that and I can understand how BA would be very upset at going through a completely futile exercise.
 
DfwRevolution
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:48 am

For the uninitiated can someone review the problems between Boeing and Iberia? I'm not too familiar with what had happened.

Basically, IB was giving all the signals that they would go with the 773ER. Then at the last moment, Airbus offered a deal for the A346 that was honestly too good to pass up. Boeing strolls right into the IB press confrence 100% convinced they have the order in the bag only to be handed the most shocking turnaround in recent history. Comparing it to a girl being stood up on prom night isn't that far off.

I also don't really see how the statement is especially harsh. Was it the right thing to do in public?

In the sales world, even if you lose you are expected to kiss ass. Boeing's statements were really unprecedented, it isn't even in thier archives any longer. See Reply 18.
 
767-332ER
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:53 am


I think IB really tried to be witty in "negotiating" with Boeing in order to get A346 prices lower...but I they've screwed their chances up for a loooooooong time at getting much better, more suitable aircraft from the Boeing company. So yes, I agree with the fact that if IB was to purchase the 7E7, you won't see a deal coming from Boeing.
You screw with a company that has provided great aircraft in the past and given you deals...then you pretty much screwed yourself over. Good one IB!!!
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
EVA744
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:14 am

The press release doesn't flame IB, it points out that more people in the world according to the famous survey prefered flying on 777 over IB's current long haul jet. It implies that Boeing put in a lot of time and effort to sell the 777, only to have IB balk and purchase A346s (as they had some in their fleet already). At no point does it speak badly about Iberia, only about the aircraft they purchased.


In the sales world, even if you lose you are expected to kiss ass. Boeing's statements were really unprecedented, it isn't even in thier archives any longer.


In the sales world, you are indifferent to the sale. You can be disappointed and let others know about the decision, as there isn't any confidential information that was leaked. IB was replacing long-haul jets, if its not Boeing, Who could it be? Tupolev? Industry watchers don't read into things too much. Both companies acted rationally and in their best interests.


IB looks to be going all Airbus and with no pricing pressure from a competitive tender from Boeing they're going to have a hard time buying anything below full list price in the future from Boeing.


Point 1: IB Leasing 744.
Point 2: A Hard time buying anything below full list price? Please, if Iberia wants to buy planes they will walk to the 2 competing candy shoppes and compare Wonka bars and Hershey bars. The better deal gets the sale. Boeing can't have hard feelings about the lost sale. They will do everything they can AGAIN to get the 7E7 sale to IB, because Boeing is a business and they try to make $$$ and the way to do that is to sell planes. IB will look at 7E7, and Boeing will give them a good price. Anything else would be folly.
 
bullpitt
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:18 am

I've seen some stupid comments on this forum but Phxinterrupted beats most of them

Regardless, IB is one of the worst European carriers, period. If you don't believe me, just fly on one of their filthy airplanes and try connecting through their hub, where chaos reigns and security is a joke.

Now I very much doubt that IB one of the only legacy carriers making a profit can be one of Europes worst airlines.  Nuts

Next MAD is a very easy airport to get around anybody with a moderate IQ and the ability to read signs I'm sure can go from terminal 1 to 2 or 3 without any problem.

Security in MAD is a joke?  Wow! this comes from someone whose country suffered the worst attacks with civil aircrafts due to their sh*t security.

Give me a Spanish civil guard before one of your useless TSA agents mate.

And by the way the team that negociated the IB airbus purchase has just received an international award for that purchase.


These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
767-332ER
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:48 am


Bullpitt,

Look at things in perspective man. First of all...if the terrorists wanted to use planes against Madrid or any other spanish city on 3/11, they would have used them, but they knew that it would instill more fear in people there because most people use trains as opposed to airplanes. Here in the U.S. it's very different. Our air system is much more widely used by people for obvious reasons, so it would be more sensible to strike on 9/11 with planes...it does just that, instill fear.

Now to other points that you had made, which by in no means am I here to attack you, I consider you a respected member and always enjoy your insight from spanish aviation, but to anyone who has never traveled to Barajas...the airport can seem to be a mess. My first times there were horrific and of course, now that I am used to it (as are you) it becomes a whole lot easier. We know which airlines operate out of T1...T2, the procedures in getting from one to the other. So yes, that statement regarding the IQ of anyone and how to get around Barajas might have been a little over the top. Barajas is a hard airport to get around because it was patched together from years of renovation and opening new halls, etc...

The point about security is just that...to enter the country of Spain, you get your passport stamped by the spanish civil guard and that's it. To get out, you go thru a metal detector and baggage screened x-ray machine and then if you get "sacked" at the airport by the cute Guardia Civil chick...(which is what happened to me the last time I was in Spain). That's it...so security is a bit laxed and that point, I don't know how you argue it. No one can, here in the U.S. we see some stuff that amazes me and then sometimes at the airport I feel comfortable with the security checks being given...so it's a tough issue to debate and measure.

Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
ba319-131
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:03 am

The only planes IB will be looking to add in the near future will be MD87/88 replacemets,most likely additional A320 series aircraft which would make the most sense.

The 7E7 may be looked at in the future,but IB generally prefer 4 engines planes on long haul flights as per a 747 and A340 fleet.

Only time will tell if the 7E7 or A330 make the IB fleet.
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foxdelta
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:16 am

767-332ER

Yes, security in Spain's airports is a joke, just like it is in the US
 
bullpitt
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:16 am

No hard feelings 767-332ER its just that I use to work at MAD I don't see the problem. For one t1, t2 and t3 are one after the other, long walk from t1 to t3 no argument there but hell how can you get lost just follow the signs.

Security at MAD is more than what you see believe me, yes this is Europe not the US we do things different here but hell, not long ago someone posted here in this forum that an off duty police boarded an aircraft with his gun in the USA and no one noticed until he was on board.

my complaint was towards post 16, pls. read it and tell me if I'm wrong.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
767-332ER
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:35 am

Yes, I agree with you, it was a statement made by someone who generalized and definitely made and overstatement. I think if chaos reigned then the airport would be shut down  Laugh out loud. Anyways, just wanted to make some points to mediate between you two, but obviously, Bullpitt I'll back you up bro. Como esta el tiempo ahora en Madrid amigo? Mi novia viene de Sevilla manana!!! asi que no puedo esperar!!!  Big grin
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
bullpitt
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:00 am

Weather is hot, but stormy. maybe we can see each other one day in MAD and have a beer.
These are my principles but if you don't like them I have others
 
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PanAm_DC10
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:06 am

EVA744

"The press release doesn't flame IB, it points out that more people in the world according to the famous survey prefered flying on 777 over IB's current long haul jet. It implies that Boeing put in a lot of time and effort to sell the 777, only to have IB balk and purchase A346s (as they had some in their fleet already). At no point does it speak badly about Iberia, only about the aircraft they purchased"

Agree, though the timing of it's release said a lot. As other posts state there is a lot more to it than the press release. One has to give credit to Airbus and the IB representatives that ultimately won the deal.

Point 1: IB Leasing 744

Yes, Leasing. That is not a direct purchase from Boeing. It may be a Boeing product but they are paying another airline to provide the product. There are a few more B744 operators that, due to current market and fiscal conditions, would willingly lease or sell some of their B744's. Or IB could go straight to a lessor.

Point 2: A Hard time buying anything below full list price? Please, if Iberia wants to buy planes they will walk to the 2 competing candy shoppes and compare Wonka bars and Hershey bars. The better deal gets the sale. Boeing can't have hard feelings about the lost sale. They will do everything they can AGAIN to get the 7E7 sale to IB, because Boeing is a business and they try to make $$$ and the way to do that is to sell planes. IB will look at 7E7, and Boeing will give them a good price. Anything else would be folly.

I understand your point. However, I believe that it will take some time before Boeing will be convinced it can lay it's best offer on the table at IB and win the campaign. If IB wants the B7E7 they can still operate it via one of the major Leasing companies such as ILFC or GECAS. Two very large Boeing customers whose purchasing power would enable IB to secure a very good deal on 7E7's should they wish to operate it.

If demand for B7E7 meets some of Boeings current indications I just don't see Boeing putting a heavily discounted offer on the table to IB for a direct purchase. IB operates Boeing equipment and the commercial relationship carries on day to day via maintenance and training between the two companies. There are other ways for IB to procure new build Boeing's at discounted prices though.

Just my $.02

Regards

PANAM_DC10
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
dutchjet
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:13 am

Lets make this simple....

1. I am sure that Boeing has offered the 7e7 to just about every major airline worldwide, and every smaller carrier worldwide that could possibily have a use of the 7e7. Of course, that would include Iberia.

2. Regardless of what happened between Boeing and Iberia with respect to the 777, time has passed and Boeing would be more than happy to sell 7e7s to Iberia.

3. Iberia, just like everyother airline in the world, will continue to work with Boeing and Airbus and consider each and every airliner that the two companies produce. Boeing will take some orders and Airbus will take the others. The airlines NEED both Boeing and Airbus to be in this business and rely on the competition between the 2 maufacturers to ensure that new advanced airliners will be developed and to ensure that such airliners are available at "reasonable" prices.

After the 777 episode, I am sure that Boeing was pissed off at Iberia and I am sure that Iberia did not appreciate any negative PR that may have come from Boeing......but, trust me, they will get over it and, more likely than not, work together again in the future.

 
trevd
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:59 am

I believe what got Boeing so bothered by this incident comes down to a matter of trust, and unfortunately I think Iberia has hurt themselves, both in Boeings eyes and in the eyes of many lessors and financiers.

Most are convinced that at the end of the day, IB used Boeing as a 'stalking horse' to get Airbus to lower the price of the A340-600's. This in and of itself isn't unusual, but where IB lost a lot of credibility was in making agreements only to renege and claim the excuse that their agreement didn't matter because Airbus had come back and dumped a bunch of money on the table. For more insight, there was a Wall Street Journal article back in January that interviewed IB's CFO and detailed a lot of these tactics. IB may have thought they got themselves a great deal but they also got themselves the reputation that their word is not good either.
 
767-332ER
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:21 am


Bullpitt,
I'm down with that...on my next lay-over at Madrid I'll let you know and we can meet up. Will be somewhere around february or march...
Regards
Twinjets...if one fails, work the other one twice as hard!!!
 
boeingbus
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:43 am

This post is getting rediculous... If IB feels like the 7E7 is good fit in their future plan... Boeing would fly to madrid before you know it... They are not going to pass a sale because of past sour episodes. Conversely, IB is not going to pass on the 7E7 if it meets its needs.

Boeing in the past has made very silly business decions with Condit as their leader... like JetBlue and many many others.... so IB would love to have IB back!

As far as MAD - in April of 2003 all roads leading to the airport is a total MESS... there are no clear exits to car rental drop offs? Most major airports as soon as you drive in to airport grounds you see clear signs for car rental companies... not in MAD! it's a mess...

I did notice construction all around so maybe they have corrected the awful design.

On a different note, is IB planning to fly from BOS anytime soon? I read this on some thread on A.net...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
ha763
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:36 am

Boeing did not put out a press release regarding IB's decision. It was a statement and was in the "Current Statements" section of their news page. They do not have an online archive for their statements. I wouldn't doubt that a question was asked that Boeing needed time to think over before responding.
 
lalone
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:43 am


First of all I don´t think that Boeing said anything offensive to Iberia in their press release...and they had every right to be pissed at them. Unfortunately IB´s management have made the wrong decission (in my opinion) of turning their fleet completely to Airbus. I personally prefer Boeing planes, specially for long haul, but I would consider equally wrong to have an all Boeing fleet. Boeing and Airbus are the 2 major plane makers and an airline like IB should buy from both. If I had to choose the fleet for IB it would be:

SHORT MEDIUM RANGE A319-320-321
LONG RANGE B777-200ER and B777-300ER.... maybe some B747-400ER

Many major Airlines like AF, BA, AZ have that kind of fleet and function really well.
 
sabenapilot
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 8:26 am

Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Like any airline in the world the CEO of IB will have found a rather big presentation folder on his desk, showing him the main characteristics and benefits of the B7E7 in all possible details, no doubt about that.

Boeing is a commercial company trying to sell planes. They would be absolute idiots if they would have hard feelings about what happened in the past. Besides, even if they had a point in that they were made to look like fools on IB's press conference where the A340-600 order was announced while the B. delegation was telling journalists off the record when the first B777 would be delivered in MAD and in what configuration it would be, they pretty much lost all sympathy by posting such an arrogant and unprecedented press release hitting back at a possible customer. The fact they quickly removed it from their website is prove B saw this was a PR blunder too and wanted to move on.

Anyway, I don't know why IB would have to fall for the B7E7? I mean, some people here actually think virtually EVERY airline will have to buy large numbers to stay competitive... As has been suggested in a recent Airbus newsletter to its customers, an airline with a large mixed Airbus fleet (eg: A319/A320/321/330/340), might be able to offset the lower direct operating costs of the B7E7 by savings on maintenance/training/operating commonality when sticking to the Mixed Fleet Concept. Operating planes cost more than the fuel alone. Seems B. still does not fully understand the family concept in today's aviation. They generally compare the B7E7 to another similar size plane, often the A330-200, but have you ever seen them make a calculation for an entire fleet?
I mean: How much would it cost an airline to operate a fleet of lets say 30 A320, 10 B7E7, 8 A340, 3 B747-300? And how much would it cost that airline to operate 10 A330 iso those 10 B7E7s? And if that airline also replaced their 3 B747-300 with A340-600? Still convinced the B7E7 introduction would be such a good idea from an overall point of view????
____

As to B. taking the rest of the NW A330 orders off of their hands to sell them the 7e7. That would be a very stupid thing to do. They'd have to compete with their own latest product in selling the NW A330s! Sell them and damage B7E7 sales, stay stuck with them, thus hand out the B7E7s to NW for free! Still remember the SQ A340 deal? It took B. years to get rid of the planes, long after the initial B777s were delivered to SQ and look what SQ did some years later: they bought A340-500/-600. It was a very expensive PR stunt, that's all.

[Edited 2004-07-10 01:29:07]
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2481
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:43 pm

A few comments:

I'm sure Boeing has proposed the 7E7 to IB. They would be stupid not to. However, if it has gone any farther than that, is up to debate. In all likelihood, it has not.

"Basically, IB was giving all the signals that they would go with the 773ER. Then at the last moment, Airbus offered a deal for the A346 that was honestly too good to pass up. Boeing strolls right into the IB press confrence 100% convinced they have the order in the bag only to be handed the most shocking turnaround in recent history."

Almost, but not quite - Boeing was never told they had 100% of the order. To the best of my knowledge, IB was going to order at least a few more (remember, they had already picked up 3 from the ex-Flightlease/Swissair order) A346s. However, what IB did tell Boeing, and which Boeing believed up until the press conference, was that IB was going to split the order roughly in half between the 777 and the A340. It was this slap in the face that prompted Boeing's subsequent statement.

"Point 1: IB Leasing 744."

As has already been pointed out, IB is leasing the 744s from a third party (Air Atlanta Icelandic bought them from SQ, then in turn are leasing them to IB). While Boeing will undoubtedly work with IB regarding maintenance issues, that will be as far as it will go. No more or less what they are currently doing with the MD-80 and 757 fleets.

"Seems B. still does not fully understand the family concept in today's aviation."

Perhaps, but then again, Airbus seems to have finally recognized that they can no longer keep building an early '80's-era design, either. Just look at the A380.

"It took B. years to get rid of the planes, long after the initial B777s were delivered to SQ and look what SQ did some years later: they bought A340-500/-600."

I'm afraid this is extremely anachonistic (read: 'wrong'). SQ signed their original 777 contract at the end of 1995. They selected the A340-500 (SQ has yet to buy the -600, BTW) over the 777-200X in 1998, signing a contract in early 1999. It wasn't until December 1999 that SQ decided to ditch the underperforming A340-300s in favor of 777-200ERs.


"Heck I'd ask NW if I were in charge of marketing."

 Innocent  Innocent  Innocent

Ssshhh. . . you might be in for a surprise later this year. . . although don't expect an A330 trade-in, as Sabenapilot and others are quite correct, it would be stupid on Boeing's part - and apparently unneeded.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
sabenapilot
Posts: 2442
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RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:56 pm

Hamlet69,

It took B. years to get rid of the planes, long after the initial B777s were delivered to SQ and look what SQ did some years later: they bought A340-500/-600."

OK, must agree that technically speaking the contract to buy A340-500/-600 was signed a few months before the B777/A340-300 exchange. However, I was talking more of deliveries, so I should have typed got ISO bought.The first A340-500/-600 were delivered to SQ long after the swap, thus canceling out much of the stunning effect the A340-300 exchange had back then.

And how long did it take Boeing to get rid of those SQ A340-300s? I recall seeing them standing around idle till well in 2001/2002....

A terrible deal if you ask me.

-------

Indeed, the A380 and in fact also the A340-500/-600 are no identical twins to the other FBW planes. You just have to look in to the flightdeck to understand this. Airbus felt the need to introduce new technology faster than Boeing would do and they can do so too since we are talking about a family concept and the latest 2 members of the Airbus fleet sure qualify to be called brothers/sisters of the other Airbus FBW planes. On the other hand, with the different Boeing planes, it is hard to speak about any family ties other than maybe inlaws at best.... Hence the remark from Airbus introducing a handful of B7E7 in a mixed fleet to replace another member of the Airbus family might even push the overall operating costs up. Airbus claim was backed with nice graphs and calculations (I agree the figures come from Airbus, so you have to take them for what they are worth, but still...) and until present never denied by B.: they keep on comparing the B7E7 as an individual plane against other individual planes.
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2481
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Has Boeing Confronted IB On 7E7?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 3:59 pm

"And how long did it take Boeing to get rid of those SQ A340-300s?"

A number of years. OTOH, one could ask the question, what did Boeing do with those A340s? The answer, of course, is that they marketed them to current Airbus long-haul operators. For instance, they sold 3 to Cathay Pacific, 4 to Gulf Air, etc. This prevented those operators from buying new aircraft from Airbus. In addition, and perhaps more importantly, they also offered them to both Swiss and South African. This is significant because it forced Airbus to lower their prices in order to secure new orders. Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with the SAA deal, however, I know Swiss stated publically they paid less for their order for 13 new A340s (later reduced to 12, rumored to be reduced to 9) than they would have paid for used (ex-SQ) frames. While it is entirely possible (and probable) Boeing lost money on these aircraft, it is certainly probable that so did Airbus.  Big grin As to whether or not Boeing lost money on the total deal, I'm afraid we'll probably never know.

"On the other hand, with the different Boeing planes, it is hard to speak about any family ties other than maybe inlaws at best.... Hence the remark from Airbus introducing a handful of B7E7 in a mixed fleet to replace another member of the Airbus family might even push the overall operating costs up."

If we are talking about systems, then you're correct. Of course, having twice as much experience in the field is both an advantage and a hinderance to Boeing. Just look at the 737NG. Boeing had the opportunity to completely modernize the aircraft to make it more inline with the 747-400 and 777. However, this would have made it completely uncommon with the masses of previous generation 737s in operation. The airlines (SW in particular) said no.

If we are talking about cockpit architecture and training, then let's clear up a myth. Among the recent Boeing designs (737NG, 767-400ER, 747-400, 777), it takes approximately 1-2 extra days to go from one Boeing model to another, as it does to go from one Airbus model to another. It is certainly true that Airbus does have a more common, nearly identical, cockpit structure (until the A380). However, the advantages are not nealy what Airbus makes it out to be. That is why I find their argument that the 7E7 will cost more to operate overall quite, well, hilarious.
Then again, perhaps they're right. For an airline who is operating only A32Xs and A330/340s and who wants to replace, for example, the A330s, it might indeed drive their overall fleet costs up. Therefore, if Airbus is happy in the future only selling planes to Qatar Airways, MEA, Swiss (once MD-11s are retired), Iberia (once 747s and 757s are retired), Austrian (if they get rid of Lauda's old fleet), and TAP, then they should definitely stick to this arguement, and not worry about Boeing's little 'ol 7E7.

"until present never denied by B. . ."

. . . they're probably still too busy laughing.

Regards,

Hamlet69

BTW - ". . . the remark from Airbus introducing a handful of B7E7 in a mixed fleet to replace another member of the Airbus family might even push the overall operating costs up."

That's probably what Boeing said when Airbus introduced the A320. . .
Honor the warriors, not the war.

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