Cory6188
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EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:41 am

Over time, it seems as if EWR is gaining more and more precedence for international flights in comparison to JFK. Since it's creation, JFK has always been known as New York's premier international airport, with the greatest number of flights and destinations around the world.

JFK is still way ahead of EWR in terms of flights and destinations served, but I have started to notice that EWR is definitely making some headway with some international routes, such as SQ's EWR-HKG and Air Tahiti Nui's (I don't know the code) rumored flight from EWR-PPT. EWR also has a few airlines that JFK doesnt, such as MH and Ethopian.

One would think that JFK would always remain at the forefront of serving New York's needs for international flights (and it probably always will), so what's the reason behind EWR's increasing prominence with regard to international service? There was actually a large article about this in The Record (northeastern NJ's local newspaper) a few weeks ago in the Travel section.

What do you think?
 
pilotcoex
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:49 am

I think if they added another runway, or even extend runway 29, EWR could easily match JFK. But neither will happen
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:52 am

such as SQ's EWR-HKG

SQ flies to Singapore nonstop, not Hong Kong.
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dutchjet
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:09 am

Newark has done well with international carriers - much has to do with connections; its the only NYC airport where domestic/international passengers can make numerous and easy connection (LGA is all domestic - anything int'l is precleared and JFK offers limited domestic service [except transcon flights] on airlines other than JetBlue), EWR provides easy access to Manahttan, and, of course, the CO hub and its international service have put EWR on the international map.

Remember, however, that SQ's decision to operate the nonstop flight from Singapore into EWR had more to do with the good performance of F R A -JFK segment on the onestop flight into JFK and the poor performance of the AMS-EWR segment on the onestop flight into EWR - thus, the onestop service into EWR was dropped in favor of the new nonstop flight. TAP flies into EWR mainly because of the large Portugese population in northern NJ and SAS is at EWR because of its failed marriage and investment into CO (which came to an end during the last bankruptcy of CO). And, some international carriers that tried EWR have pulled out.

The answer is CHOICE, airlines like KL, VS, LH, BA, EL AL, Aliltalia, AF, etc which serve both JFK and EWR want to attract the largest amount of pax possible, and by serving both of NYC's international airports, they have something for everyone. EWR is more convenient for some NewYorkers but JFK is a better choice for others, thus serving both airports is the best answer.

I do think that JFK will remain the prime international gateway to the NYC area....many consider still consider JFK the primary entry point to all of the US.
 
rjpieces
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:15 am

One of the main reasons SQ chose EWR over JFK was because their JFK-AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-SIN flight was higher yielding than their EWR-AMS-SIN flights.

Over time, it seems as if EWR is gaining more and more precedence for international flights in comparison to JFK. Since it's creation, JFK has always been known as New York's premier international airport, with the greatest number of flights and destinations around the world.

While EWR is getting it's fair share of new service, so is Kennedy. It is good that both are growing. While SIN-EWR just started, DXB-JFK and HKG-JFK both just started, with TG likely to start service to JFK next year. Copa, Mexicana both recently started JFK service as well--Mexicana at the expense of EWR.

JFK is still way ahead of EWR in terms of flights and destinations served, but I have started to notice that EWR is definitely making some headway with some international routes, such as SQ's EWR-HKG and Air Tahiti Nui's (I don't know the code) rumored flight from EWR-PPT. EWR also has a few airlines that JFK doesnt, such as MH and Ethopian.

I think it's too early to say they are making headway.......MH and Ethiopian and Eva (and of course SAS)...Good stuff. Now ask yourself how many international airlines serve JFK that don't serve EWR and the list can go on and on.

NYC is a large enough market to handle two major international airports.....They both help cover the huge market and thus are both very important to NYC.
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:47 am

Contrary to most opinions the main market for Newark Airport is Northern New Jersey, however they do get about 20% of their traffic heading to/from Manhattan.

New Jersey is the wealthiest State in the Nation, with a impressive list of Corporations which either have their Global Headquarters, North American Headquarters, or just a large presence within the Garden State. Also Northern New Jersey's population is 8 Million which is a huge market onto itself, throw it NYC and Eastern Pennsylvania traffic which it also picks up and it's nicely situated.

Newark Airport is at the intersection of several major Interstate Highways (NJ Tunrpike/ I 95, I 78, I 80, US Highway 1 etc) which makes it easily accesible by car from all over the region.

JFK while NY's #1 airport is quite isolated by it's location, even though it's in NYC (Queens) it's near the border of Nassau County Long Island. It's quite inconveinent for folks outside Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn and Long Island to reach, the main reason is that from anywhere except Long Island you have to drive Literally from oneside of NYC to the other.

NYC has a great public transit system, but it's highways are probably the worst in the Nation of any big City.

JFK always will have more international carriers, two reasons are that it has more room than EWR and it's also not dominated by a single carrier like CO dominates EWR.

JFK for the last year has handled more passengers than Newark Airport which the 7 years prior was NY's busiest in terms of travelers, however EWR still has more aircraft movements.

JFK is developing nicely with the new Terminals, Airtrain and future "oneseat" rides to Manhattan within the next 10 years. However they are deviating from what Im sure Airline and Port Authority planners had envisioned when the Redevelopment started about 7 years ago.

JFK will continue to be the Main NYC International Gateway, however Domestically they are going to be dominated by Jetblue. AA and DL both had grandoise visions back in '99 about developing JFK into a hub ala CO's EWR hub, however the phenominal success of Jetblue has pretty much ended that plan.

JFK will be a polar airport, heavy on International flights one one end and heavy on LCC Domestic flights on the other end. Leaving little to no room for traditional Domestic route networks to develop, Chicago, Boston, Minneapolis, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Charlotte etc..

Newark on the other hand is diversifying nicely, you have CO and SQ with their Ultra Long Range flights to Asia. LH and Swiss catering to Business travelers with BBJs, CO flying to smaller European Markets such as Oslo, Edinburgh, Lisbon which other US airlines (or European) don't serve.

Then there's the traditional flights,

NWA, CO several times daily to MSP
NWA, CO several times daily to DTW
AA, CO, UAL, ATA several times daily to Chicago
AA, CO several times daily to DFW

etc..

Then you have CO flying Regional Jets to smaller US Markets, such as Arkansas, Oklahoma, Madison Wis, Savanah Georgia etc..

Both will continue to grow after suffering a tremendous slide in traffic after 9-11, the peak reached in 2000 of 34 Million passengers at EWR is going to last a few years.

Last year EWR handled 29 Million, and JFK 30 Million passengers.

The most passengers in a single year for any of NYC's three airports was EWR's 34 Million in 2000, JFK will probably beat that number but not for atleast another 5 years. Newark will also exceed 34 Million passengers but again not for another 5-6 years.

10-12 years from now Newark Airport will probably be at 40 Million passengers, JFK will probably be at 41-42 Million passengers per year.

LGA may reach 30 Million, but the FAA and Port Authority are going to tightly regulate the traffic.

Within 20 years EWR, JFK and LGA will be maxed out, and a new solution (new runways, new airports etc..) will be needed.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
flyguy1
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:00 am

DL has, will be adding many new domestic flights at JFK. Thoguh I do agree, most domestic growth at JFK will come from B6.
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jfklganyc
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:32 am

EWR has 48 airlines serving it. EWR has 106 gates.
JFK has 74 airlines serving it. 4930 acres. 110 gates without T5 included. 128 gates with T5 included. Increasing to 143-145 gates with the opening of new Terminal 5 and new Terminal 8.

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b727fan
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:55 am

I think that EWR is certainly making a progress, however, there are few major issues which will keep JFK in the lead:
1- There is no room for runway expansion let alone construction of new one(s). Such undertaking will cost the NJ tax payers major $$ and will not be a favorable project, since JFK and LGA are within 20miles radius.
2- The terminal configuration and pax air craft parking are limited, unless remote parking are provided and passengers are shuttled to their flights (like the case in many other airports) But this may not be possible because with bad weather, groundings or emergency diversions, EWR can max out fast!
3- When the A380 enters markets and airports begin to show off that they are capable of accommodating such size aircrafts (and JFK will), unfortunately my home airport EWR will not be able to compete!

As for the EWR future, this is my guess:
It will continue to remain CO hub and if there are any design changes / remodels of any of its A & B terminals, especially A, it will be in such to accommodate small to mid. Size airplanes. Now days, numbers of ERJ, CRJ, B737s and A319&20s are becoming more and more of regulars at EWR. And many airlines are choosing smaller and more economical aircrafts, therefore I think we will begin to see a gradual shrinkage in size at our EWR! Of course, this is only my guess, and I love to see more wide bodies continue their traffic at my home airport!
 
dkny
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:15 pm

Ethiopian is discontinuing EWR as of October 1st. Flights will now be ADD-FCO-IAD 3 times a week.
 
spinzels
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:33 pm

JFK is developing nicely with the new Terminals, Airtrain and future "oneseat" rides to Manhattan within the next 10 years. However they are deviating from what Im sure Airline and Port Authority planners had envisioned when the Redevelopment started about 7 years ago.


On the JFK Airtrain, the average daily rider ship, of 26,500, is below the Port Authority’s projection of 34,000 riders a day. But the PA expects the rider ship to edge up during high-travel Summer months. Not sure if I agree, will be interesting to see the figures in September. Airtrain EWR has a rider ship of about 30,000/day--although that includes all EWR airtrain uses, not just connections through the airtport train station. The number that actually use the train station appears much smaller--around 5,000.

As for one seat Manhattan to JFK service, this may becoming a reality sooner than we expected. The City and State are now behind a plan to use $2 billion of the $20 billion 9/11 disaster relief set aside for New York to construct a rail link from Lower Manhattan to JFK. Presumably the rail link would be connected to/or terminate at the new Fulton St. transportation complex. If so this would be an enormous boost to JFK, allowing easy train access not only to most NYers, but also to densely populated Hudson County, NJ. In the past, the White House has been consistently opposed to this spending, but has recently signaled it might support the plan.

Edited to clarify EWR airtrain usage


[Edited 2004-07-09 15:46:39]
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modesto2
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:35 pm

I love JFK...keep in mind that JFK will gain 26 gates with JetBlue's T5 expansion plan. However, we're also demolishing T6 so the net gain may only be about 10 gates.

At certain times of the day, aircraft parking is limited. But keep in mind that the early-afternoon hours are DEAD at JFK. T4 only has a few aircraft. Most airlines have early morning and early evening pushes. Most of the mid-day traffic is JetBlue. JFK can certainly add flights...but mostly at off-peak times.
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:56 pm

Hey

this had to do w/ airlines that opperate EWR.

SAA said that they where planning to change there services from JFK to EWR.
Which means more 346 and 343 for EWR. Also SAS opperates EWR and West Jet is starting EWR. Also talks at SAA say they are interested into the 380 and might do a direct flight from JNB to New York.


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navega
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:08 am

One cannot even compate the number of International airlines that operate
at JFK compared to those that operate at EWR.

EWR will always be a Domestic Airport. Just because CO flies to many international destinations does not give EWR the presence of a real
International airport as JFK does.

One only has to look at the impressive list of foreign airlines that fly here
to see why JFK is and will remain as one of the true international airports
of this country.

Take away CO from EWR and then what ???

 
navega
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:11 am

One cannot even compare the number of International airlines that operate
at JFK to those that operate at EWR.

EWR will always be a Domestic Airport to many due to the extensive domestic
route structure of CO. Just because CO also flies to many international destinations from EWR it is still not percieved as a real International airport as JFK is percieved.

Just drive to JFK and take a look at the impressive list of foreign airlines that fly there to see why JFK is and will remain as one of the true international airports of this country.

Take away CO from EWR and then what ???

 
JAL777
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 6:20 am

International Airlines Operating @ EWR:
===
Air Canada
Air France
Air India
Air Jamaica
Air Plus Comet
Alitalia
British Airways
Czech Airlines
El Al
Ethiopian Airlines
EVA Airways
Jetsgo
KLM ROYAL DUTCH AIRLINES
Lot Polish
Lufthansa
Malaysia
Mexicana
SAS
Singapore Airlines
Swiss
TAP Air Portugal
Virgin Atlantic

International Airlines Operating @ JFK:
====
Aer Lingus
Aeroflot
Aerolineas Argentinas
Aero Mexico
AeroSvit Ukrainian Airlines
Air Canada
Air China
Air France
Air India
Air Jamaica
Alitalia
ANA
Asiana
Austrian Airlines
Avianca
Biman Bangladesh
British Airways
BWIA
Cathay Pacific
China Airlines
Corsair
Copa
Czech Airlines
Egyptair
El Al
Emirates
Finnair
Ghana Airways
Iberia
Icelandair
Japan Airlines
KLM
Korean Air
Kuwait Airways
Lacsa
Lan Chile
Lan Ecuador
Lan Peru
LOT
Lufthansa
Malev Hungarian
Mexicana
Olympic
Pakistan International Airlines
Qantas
Royal Air Maroc
Royal Jordanian
Saudi Arabian Airlines
Singapore Airlines
South African Airways
Swiss International Air Lines
TACA International
Tarom Romanian
Turkish
Uzbekistan
VARIG
Virgin Atlantic
 
rjpieces
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:16 am

Nice list JAL777....Except Tarom doesn't fly to JFK anymore.
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:26 am

"EWR will always be a Domestic Airport to many due to the extensive domestic
route structure of CO. Just because CO also flies to many international destinations from EWR it is still not percieved as a real International airport as JFK is percieved."


Newark Airport has more International service than Chicago Ohare, home to the two largest US Airlines and the third largest US City. So to merely pass EWR off as just a "Domestic" Airport is nuts, only perhaps MIA, JFK,SFO and LAX have more International service than EWR.


The problem with JFK is not it's International network, its the Domestic network. EWR has a better balance, many of JFK's International airlines are not even daily flights. And they are almost all departing/arriving at the sametime, which compounds the problems at JFK.

Between 4PM-7PM there are not enough gates at JFK, between 8AM-4PM there are too many just sitting idle doing nothing. Total waste of resources, EWR atleast has healthy Domestic operation which keeps it's gates busy throughout the day.

Also JFK's lack of balance to their flight schedules play havoc on reatilers trying to make a living, just look in Terminal 4's "Mall". I physically counted when I was there more boarded up retail spaces then there were open retail spaces, there was even an article in the NY Times about how bad the stores which were supposed to bring in so much money at T-4 were doing.

They have no customers except in the Early evening, not enough foot traffic through out the day.

Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AlitaliaMD11
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:34 am

JAL777

I am pretty sure Air Plus comet opperates JFK.
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:46 am

"As for one seat Manhattan to JFK service, this may becoming a reality sooner than we expected. The City and State are now behind a plan to use $2 billion of the $20 billion 9/11 disaster relief set aside for New York to construct a rail link from Lower Manhattan to JFK. "

Chances look good, however there is still a huge controversy as to the cost-benefit equation. They are asking the Feds to turn over $2-3 Billion in un used 9-11 grant money into firm Transit funding for the project, the total cost for the project is $6 BILLION!!

The other $4 Billion will come from the NY State Empire Development Corp, MTA, Port Authority and other sources.

Alot of money to spend to serve estimated 7,000-10,000 daily riders from JFK to Manhattan.

In contrast the Port Authority has also begun planning studies to extend PATH service 2 miles from Downtown Newark to Newark Airport's rail link station, it would create a direct oneseat ride from Newark Airport's rail link station to the new World Trade Center Transit Hub being designed by Santiago Calatrava.

It would operate between Newark Airport and the World Trade Center every 3-5 minutes during peak hours, and would also connect to PATH's 33rd street line stations in Manhattan's Greenwich Village and Chelsea neighborhoods as well as Hoboken and Jersey City.

It would be a direct connection between Lower Manhattan and a airport, and with a estimated price tag of $500 Million it would be a fraction of the cost of the $6 Billion Dollar JFK-Lower Manhattan plan.

Basically the PATH extension is going to do the same thing as the proposed JFK-Lower Manhattan Airtrain link, however spending $500 Million compared to $6 Billion is a huge difference. Especially considering the ridership will be almost equal, check the LMDC's website for a brief description of both plans.

http://renewnyc.org/plan_des_dev/transportation/pdf/chapter2.pdf
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
Blackbird1331
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:56 am

Good job, JAL777. EWR was a great airport before JFK even opened its runways. Now, JFK is undoubtably a great airport. The future is not in the name, or in its history, but, in its managment. As many know, EWR, JFK and LGA are run by the same managment team.
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Bsmalls35
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:40 am

Thanks to Continental, Newark has a good amount of international service. However in the past few years, several international carriers have pulled out of Newark and others have reduced service. Korean, Aer Lingus, Malev, Turkish, Mexicana, Avianca, and Ethopian (soon), come to mind. Lufthansa Swiss and SAS have scaled back service. And remember both United and American stopped service from Newark to London. In terms of passenger counts, Newark is still increasing internationally but for total numbers if JetBlue continues its rapid expansion, Newark will be hard pressed to match JFK in terms of passenger count. Is SAA thinking about switching service to EWR, this is the first time I've heard this.
 
spacecadet
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:12 am

JFK while NY's #1 airport is quite isolated by it's location, even though it's in NYC (Queens) it's near the border of Nassau County Long Island. It's quite inconveinent for folks outside Manhattan, Queens, Brooklyn and Long Island to reach, the main reason is that from anywhere except Long Island you have to drive Literally from oneside of NYC to the other.

Well, this might be technically true but are you honestly telling me that people from Connecticutt or the northern suburbs are more convenient to EWR than JFK?

JFK is more convenient to those north and east of the city, EWR is more convenient to those south and west. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it still is. Both airports are important for that reason, because this is a metro area of more than 20 million people and about an equal number of those people lie on each side of Manhattan.

If you're in Manhattan, it's pretty much a wash, but there are only 1.2 million people in Manhattan, so even a one-stop Manhattan ride to EWR is not as important as some people make it out to be. For most actual New Yorkers, JFK is actually more convenient and still would be even with a PATH connection - I agree with whoever said EWR serves mostly NJ residents, because don't forget that all outer boroughs in NY except Staten Island (by far the smallest borough) are east of Manhattan, including the Bronx (which is both north and east - and you do not need to go through Manhattan to get from the Bronx to Queens).

EWR will probably never really eclipse JFK because EWR is not convenient for any NYC resident outside of Manhattan, and the population distribution of the city being what it is, JFK is still closer to a larger concentration of people than EWR is - and many of those people don't have cars (as nearly everyone does in NJ).

EWR is more convenient to NYC residents than it used to be, with AirTrain combined with a NJ Transit stop. But that still means a ride into Manhattan, then a transfer to either a bus or to NJ Transit- and then a further transfer to AirTrain if you take NJ Transit. It's much easier for most NYC residents to either take public transportation or a car service out to JFK (car service is more expensive to EWR). So JFK still has more people in its more immediately accessible vicinity - and a large number of northern and eastern suburban residents for whom driving is still more convenient than EWR.

Being on the border with NJ, NYC's population is not naturally distributed - Manhattan should be the center of the city, but it isn't. Most of NYC's residents live to the east, and JFK serves all those residents better than EWR.
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JAL777
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:27 am

It's simple really... JFK is an O&D airport, EWR has more connections.


That list came of the Port Authorities Web Site.
 
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:30 pm

Spacecadet,

good post, a couple of things..

8 Million Northern New Jersey residents is significant, you have a population the size of NYC proper in NJ within a 40 Minute drive of EWR.

Plus the wealth distribution favors NJ tremendously, while yes Brooklyn and Queens have large populations it's mostly working class and immigrants with some shrinking enclaves like Dyker Heights Brooklyn and certain parts of Queens.

There's also no corporations or major industry on Long Island, Queens or Brooklyn. The jobs and the wealth are in Manhattan and Northern NJ.

JFK caters to the working class folks in Queens and Nassau County with Jetblue, and the large immigrant communities of Brooklyn like the Russians, Egyptians, Guayanese, Jamaicans etc..

EWR caters more to Upper Middleclass families and Business travelers, the average household income of the typical EWR traveler is nearly $10,000 more a year than either JFK or LGA (according to the PA's own website).
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:34 pm

"However in the past few years, several international carriers have pulled out of Newark and others have reduced service. Korean, Aer Lingus, Malev, Turkish, Mexicana, Avianca, and Ethopian (soon), come to mind"

During the same time period EWR has gained..

daily nonstop 747-400 flights from Air India,

daily nonstop A340-500 Singapore Air flights (replaces 4xs weekly one stop service)

British Airways is up to THREE daily 777 flights to London.

Tap Air Portugal now has twice daily service to Lisbon, A310, A340.

LH/Private Air BBJs to Dusseldorf and Munich

Jetsgo to Toronto

And tons of new CO International flying.
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
 
AF022
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:34 pm

according to my OAG file..., weekly frequencies to international points on international airlines

EWR (total = 233)
57 Air Canada
21 SAS
19 Lufthansa
19 British Airways
17 SG (what is SG? to Toronto?)
14 Virgin
14 Alitalia
10 TAP
07 Singapore
07 El Al
07 KLM
07 Air Jamaica
07 Air India
07 Air France
06 Swiss
05 LOT
03 Czech
03 Malaysian
03 Ethiopian

JFK (total = 570)
56 British Airways
38 Air Jamaica
35 Air France
28 Lufthansa
22 El Al
21 Virgin
21 Alitalia
18 TACA
16 BWIA
14 Swiss
14 Aer Lingus
14 Cathay Pacific
14 Aeromexico
13 JAL
11 KLM
11 Avianca
10 Iberia
09 KAL
08 THY
08 Austrian
08 Olympic
08 LOT
07 XL (what is XL? flight is to GYE)
07 Aeroflot
07 Singapore
07 South African
07 Varig
07 Czech
07 ANA
07 Mexicana
07 Malev
07 Lacsa
07 Lan Chile
07 Icelandair
07 Emirates
07 Copa
07 Finnair
07 Air India
07 Air Canada
06 Royal Air Maroc
05 Royal Jordanian
05 Egyptair
05 Kuwait
04 Aerosvit
04 PIA
04 Air China
03 Universal
03 Saudia
03 Ghana
03 EX (??? to SDQ)
03 6U (??? to Kiev)
02 HY (??? to Belgrade)
02 Biman
02 Aerolineas

As far as international carriers, JFK wins hands down. with all carriers, JFK has 1061 weekly departures and EWR has 740

 
AA767400
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:39 am

Oh god, not another JFK vs. EWR topic. Each serves it's purpose, depending on where you live. But, let's not make New Jersey into this rich and glorious state, where the wealthy run around. And New York a state of poor immigrants with no money. Yeah sure
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:47 am

"And New York a state of poor immigrants with no money. "

I did not make it out that way, the facts are that the Middle Class in NYC is disappearing to the Suburbs.

NYC more and more is becoming very wealthy on one end, and very poor on the other.

Not much in between, less and less each year. A big factor is the quality of Education, New Jersey is rated one of the best places to raise a family in the Nation because of the high quality of the Schools, the Middle class is fleeing NYC because of the poor quality of the public education system.

As someone who has gone to school in NYC (IS 24, Mary S. Barnes) and in New Jersey it is truely night and day.

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muttley35
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:51 am

A small point but EWR is the only direct gateway into the states from BHX which when you consider the midlands has a greater population than Wales and Scotland combined makes you wonder.
 
AA767400
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:01 am

Yes, it makes me wonder why BA does not have BHX-JFK. They had the route before.
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gigneil
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:16 am

The City and State are now behind a plan to use $2 billion of the $20 billion 9/11 disaster relief set aside for New York to construct a rail link from Lower Manhattan to JFK.

I find the list of projects the 9/11 disaster relief fund is funding more interesting with every day. I may start a Non-Av topic to get the opinion of some New Yorkers.

Yes, it makes me wonder why BA does not have BHX-JFK. They had the route before.

I am unaware of them discontinuing this route.

N
 
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:18 am

BA at one time flew 757s from JFK to both Birmingham and Glasglow, they actually pioneered 757s on Trans-Atlantic routes.
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muttley35
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:27 am

Yes, it makes me wonder why BA does not have BHX-JFK. They had the route before.

I am unaware of them discontinuing this route

Fraid so Gigneil , in fact AA also pulled out of BHX some time ago, at one time AA operated year round out of BHX then went seasonal before pulling out all together.
 
AA767400
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:41 am

Gigniel, You should look further at what you say. BA stopped this a while back.
They still have JFK-MAN on a 763.
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flyguy1
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:19 am

STT:
Apparently you have forgotten the many high quality parts of Queens, Bklyn, and SI that still exist in NYC. Plus, don't discount passengers from LI that use JFK. Some parts of Northern Nassau are extremely wealthy
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:04 am

There are still many fabulous neighborhoods in the Outer Boroughs, however the demographics and quality of life are changing rapidly.

My Grandmother who passed away this April lived almost all most of her 93 year life in Dyker Heights, Bay 8th Street. Awesome neighborhood, great parks and you should see what some of the homes there look like when they are decorated during Christmas.

Dyker Heights and Bay Ridge were almost exclusively Itlalian and believe or not Norweigian, my Grand Mother's last year was spent at a Norweigian Assited living center. Great place!

However the demographics are changing each year, more and more of the Italians and Norweigians are moving to New Jersey. Recent immigrants from China, Taiwan, Latin America are buying up the homes in the Neighborhoods.

The same phenomenom has been occurying in Manhattan's Little Italy, the Middle Class Italian American neighborhoods have given way to "Chinatown". Little Italy is now not much more than a block or two on Mulberry.

The Irish and Jewish neighborhoods in Queens are moving to Long Island, Korean Immigrants are replacing them in the typical Queens neighborhoods.

The Bronx once had a substantial Italian and Irish neighborhoods, the Bronx is almost 100% Dominican Now.

Im not saying that all these new Immigrants are a bad thing, but it's creating such a burden on the public Education system that the quality of the education is diminishing which is causing the flight of Middle Class families from the City to the Suburbs.

The absolute rediculous taxes in NYC are another reason, compare the price of cigarettes or gasoline in the City compared to NJ. The price of gas in NYC can be almost .75 Cents more expensice, plus you have to pump it yourself in NY (no self service in NJ).

There are still a couple places in Staten Island, namely the Annandale neighborhood which look like typical NJ suburban neighborhoods.

My point is that NYC is becoming more and more polarized, the number of very wealthy people is growing tremendously. They can't build enough apartments in Manhattan, however at the same time the number of working poor families is growing at an even more stagering rate.

The wealthy residents of NYC either don't have kids or use Private Schools, even Mayor Rudoulph Giulianni sends his Kids Andrew to Private School in Bergen County NJ.
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jfklganyc
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:29 am

ST757:
Stop beating around the bush, it's called "white flight." It's not a phenomonan isolated to New York City but has occurred in virtually all metro areas around the United States.
As for New York, that is actually reversing big time. This is also occurring in other major cities. People are moving away from "urban sprawl" and back to urban as is happening in many parts of Brooklyn and Queens.
By the way, those immigrants moving in are not poor. The average price of a house in Queens is well over $300,000. I know my townhouse with 3 bedrooms goes for 450,000.
So I do dispute your notions above.

As for a oneseat ride to EWR from Manhattan--that will never happen. Even if PATH is extended to meet the monorail at EWR you must remember that EWR is operating with a monorail!! That can never, ever connect to a standard guage track such as the PATH.

PJ
 
Cory6188
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:32 am

STT757, you have a point with regard to public education. My friend Lindsay's boyfriend is Andrew Giuliani (I've been in his car before - filled with golf stuff), and he goes to Bergen Catholic, a highly-regarded and expensive private high school in Oradell, NJ, about 5-7 minutes away from me. He said that his dad would never send him to school in the city.
 
rjpieces
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:02 am

He said that his dad would never send him to school in the city.

I HATE when politicians preach about public education and send their kids to private school. Chuck Schumer's kids went to public school and I've always admired him because of that.

No offense to the Ex-Mayor, his son probably wasn't smart enough to get into a good NYC school. There are quite a few excellent public elementary, junior high, and High Schools in NYC. You just have to be smart enough to get into them.
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cicadajet
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:48 am

Ah, a Stuyvesant student. Good school indeed.

Going off-topic, Yes, there are some good schools in NYC for some of the brighter students to excel, but that does not speak to the quality of education in the majority of schools in the system; and certainly does not excuse it.

The problem is certainly not exclusively the immigrant student population.

In regard to politicians' hypocrisy, it should be noted Mayor Guiliani's recommendation for Livington Street was that it needed to be "blown up" (not in a literal senses of course.). The Mayor did not have significant control of the Board of Education and cannot be held accountable for it. Indeed, accountability is at the heart of problem.

Moreover, the profile of the Mayor at the time was considerably higher than that of Senator Schumer.

I do not find it was unreasonable that a parent, in that sort of situation, would exercise judgment to send the child to a private school and/or one that is geographically removed from the local political fallout.
 
gigneil
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 11:55 am

I confused Birmingham for Manchester.

Ignore me, I'm a stupid American.

N
 
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jfklganyc
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:41 pm

Again off topic but I do believe Guiliani's son is somewhat learning disabled. Don't hold me to that, but I believe I heard that at some point. That may be the reason for the school.

What were we talking about again?
Ah yes, JFK--World's Best Airport!  Smile
 
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:36 am

"As for a oneseat ride to EWR from Manhattan--that will never happen. Even if PATH is extended to meet the monorail at EWR you must remember that EWR is operating with a monorail!! That can never, ever connect to a standard guage track such as the PATH."

True, but from the reports I've read from the LMDC's own website and what's been reported in the press the travel time via PATH from the World Trade Center to Newark Airport rail link station is 22 minutes, the trip from the rail link station via the "Airtrain" to Terminal C (EWR's busiest, CO's hub) takes 6-7 minutes.

Remember the Newark Airport rail link station is only across the Street (Highways 1 & 9) from Terminal C, it's not like the JFK Airtrain where the Central Terminals are a few miles from the LIRR Jamaica station.

The PATH extension of the World Trade Center line will not be a true oneseat ride in the true sense of the Word, however it's still estimated to take the same amount of time (even with the Transfer to the Airtrain) to enter Terminal C at EWR from the World Trade Center via PATH as it would to take a "Oneseat" ride from the new Fulton Street complex to T1 at JFK.

The only difference is that the PATH extension will cost $500 Million, and the JFK plan will cost $6 BILLION!!!

Another advantage the Newark Airtrain has is that each of the Airtrain Terminal Stations (A,B,C) are actually in the terminals themselves, when you exit the Airtrain's escalators in one of the three terminals at EWR you are literally right at the entrance to the screening area at the Concourse entrances.

At JFK only one terminal (T4) has a Airtrain station inside, T1's Airtrain station is across the street but has a skybridge to the Terminal. The rest of the Terminals, T2/3, T6, T7, T8/9 you get dropped off across the street from the Terminals, you have to go outside and cross several lanes of traffic in front of the Terminals to enter the Terminals.
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rjpieces
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:28 am

Does AA have plans to include the AirTrain station in their new terminal?
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STT757
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RE: EWR Gaining On JFK For International Flights?

Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:37 am

"Does AA have plans to include the AirTrain station in their new terminal?"

No you will still have to go outside and cross a couple lanes of traffic on the Arrivals level to reach the Terminals entrance, however the upper roadway for the Departures level will provide some shelter from rain/snow.

So from the T8/9 Airtrain Station to the front doors of the Terminals you will be walking outside, however the upper elevated departure roadway offers some protection from the rain/snow for the walk.

It will not help though when we get those three week Cold snaps in January when it's 10 degrees, or those heat waves in the begining of August when it's 90 Degrees with 98% humidity.


In this picture the new AA terminal is on the left, and in the background you can see the T8/9 Airtrain station which the train in the picture had just departed. At the Airtrain station you take an escalator/elevator to the ground level and then walk across approximately 6-8 lanes of traffic at the arrivals level to reach the terminal, you can see approximatley how much cover the Upper Departure roadway provides for folks walking from the Airtrain Station to the Terminal.

http://nycsubway.org/perl/show?29304



[Edited 2004-07-11 18:48:26]
Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757