B747-437B
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Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:13 am

The Indian government dealt a huge setback to both state-owned and private carriers in the country as it imposed huge taxes on the aviation sector.

The Union budget released by Finance Minister P. Chidambaram on Thursday included a new 10% service tax to be imposed on all airport services including catering and ground handling, as well as a whopping 48% tax on lease payments made for aircraft leased-in.

The airline most affected by these new regulations will be the startup low cost carrier Air Deccan who has just introduced leased Airbus A320s into their fleet. It also affects Indian Airlines and Air India's plans to acquire aircraft on lease as a stopgap measure until their fleet acquisition plans are approved by the Government.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
texdravid
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:22 am

The new Congress government looks like it didn't waste any time raising taxes. Market friendly, huh?

I am hardly suprised by this news. Hardly.
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
WindowSeat
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:32 am



Sean,

Whats this government upto? This is disastrous. I mean, now I am really beginning to wonder, if the government really wants anyone to succeed, including Air India.

cheers



I'm all in favour of keeping dangerous weapons out of the hands of fools. Let's start with keyboards.
 
Maharajah
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 9:40 am

I think this is a major setback for growth of AI, IC. Another factor (apart from new a/cs purchase decision) has been introduced to restrict the growth.

Praful Patel said that he will request FM to reconsider the decision. Hope this works (I doubt though Sad)

 
airbusfanyyz
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:55 am

*Sigh* The cycle begins anew.

Cheers,
Kaz
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:59 am

Does any other country impose the same taxation levels on aircraft leasing?

And where on earth did they come up with this number from?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:48 am

Its a question of priorities. You cannot spend resources on the urban rich while the vast majority of Indians live in penury.

Unlike the previous govt, which had no programme and was better known for its rollbacks than actual policy changes, The UPA has a plan of action and its priorities cut out. First the Agricultural and Education sector, 2nd the urban elderly and then the middle class. Sector wise: Its agriculture first, Manufacturing second and service third.

Air Deccan should NOT be affected too badly. The current changes policy also INCREASE the level of FDI from 40% to 49%. the hot rumor in the local aviation scene is that Deccan is to get a foreign partner (some Singaporean firm).

9W is properly screwed though! Is it true that they are even leasing OUT their owned 737's from next schedule?

-Roy
 
B747-437B
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:00 pm

hot rumor in the local aviation scene is that Deccan is to get a foreign partner

Old news Roy. We discussed their intention to sell a stake to a foreign partner about a month ago!  Big grin

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1603966/
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 12:04 pm

Another reason why Deccan shouldnt worry is that I expect the govt i smoving towards working out a separate package for LCC's and expect to see a whole lot of sops for that particular section. While the excise duty on Lease charges may stay, you could expect concessions like discounts and even exemptions(for some cities) in landing and parking charges and stuff like that. Duties and Taxes on Leasing and Maintainance charges (if done abroad) could be slashed or done away with altogether for Turbo-prop aircraft.

Lets wait a while before announcing our judgement shall we? We tolerated every flip-flop of the previous NDA govt without a murmur and just 2 months into the new govt we are already rushing to pronounce our judgement?

-Roy
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 3:12 pm

"You cannot spend resources on the urban rich while the vast majority of Indians live in penury."

And how is this a factor in the Indian aviation industry? Better still, why should it be a factor? How will a regressive aviation lease tax affect the lives of millions of indians rotting away in Bihar or Madhya Pradesh?
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:52 pm


Old news Roy.

Whats new is the potential investor has been clearly identified!

wrt to the taxes Its an attempt to explore new sources of revenue so as to bridge the deficit without compromising on the expenditure on crucial areas. Since beyond a point high tax rates may prove to be counter-productive and result in handicapping a sector (as in this case), the Govt needs to identify the right balance. That certainly needs to be done.

Tax policies are also a legit way to influence investments in a certain direction. So the govt *could* impose the duties on premium full service carriers like 9W and IC, while LCCs like Deccan and Alliance could be exempted. This allows for direction of investment.

-Roy
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:36 pm

"the Govt needs to identify the right balance."

Yes. More Govt. babu interference.
Trust the govt implicitly to make all those "wrong" decisions.
After all, the Indian aviation sector really grew by leaps and bounds under tight fisted babu control.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
MaverickM11
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:57 pm

"Its a question of priorities"

Yes, like stuffing the pockets of the government and ensuring that nothing ever gets accomplished in India and the people never benefit. Protectionism has never worked and this is a prime example of how to kill your own industry. Congratulations India, you're par for the course.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:05 am

It makes no sense.

You establish a tax of 48% on leases of aircraft and at the same time raise the level of investment by foreign investors from 40 to 49%.

According to Mr. Chidambaram, that will attract foreign investors. Now which foreign investor with half a brain will pick up that leasing tab?

Its like restoring a man's eyesight, but then giving him a frontal lobotomy at the same time.

Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
kaitak
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:01 am

I hate to say I'm not surprised, so I won't. You have to wonder whether there's a cadre of fifth columnists in the Indian civil service who are working to make a complete balls of India's civil aviation. The new government has not started well.

Yes, of course there is poverty (and quite a bit of penury, too) in India. So, how do you attack this? The old way, of artificially redistributing wealth and reverting to old ideological ideas of state control . . . or by identifying those parts of the economy which can contribute most effectively to economic growth. Aviation is, if it's allowed to be, such a catalyst . . . but its effect isn't being noticed in India because it's not allowed to contribute to its full effect. How long is this nonsense allowed to go on for? Just when will Indian Airlines and Air India be allowed to re-equip? I used to joke that I hoped the A340/777 would still be in production by the time the order was placed. I'm beginning to wonder if this really is a joking matter . . .
 
dl021
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:01 am

Speaking as a non-Indian/Asian I often wonder how it justified in the bureaucracy there to allow important progress to be held up by the vast quantities of red tape...I just caught myself here...Is the problem that holds up everything from buying desperately needed trainer aircraft to new fleets for the civil airlines the bureaucracy itself. Are the middle managers justifying their jobs here or are their hands out? How many projects have been delayed because of this and how has that cost civil aviation in India?

I can see that the new government is reverting to the monolith socialist model, what happened to civil aviation in the past when this was the norm?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
BarfBag
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:27 pm

Taxing "the urban rich" because "millions live in penury" is an explanation right out of Marx's odious tomes. It is the "urban rich" (funny, when the rapidly growing domestic aviation sector sees so many aam junta middle class in the air) whose wealth creation, for better or worse, provides the government the revenue it spends on the social services it is obliged to. But hey, slamming those who make the money is central to every communist and socialist worth his little red book. I absolutely disagree with the logic.

While I completely agree with the general reasoning behind Chidambaram's push to broaden revenue collections by focussing on the service sector more (since that sector contributes >50% of GDP), I'm completely against any investment that is 'government directed'. We all know what a wonderful success a centrally driven economic system has been over the last 50 years.

The path of India's economic development is tied to how little the government is present in the decision makings of any sector, not how much it is. The government's influence in any given industry is a precursor to its throttling that industry as a means of disbursing patronage. Completely ignoring any specific political orientation, India has a massive problem with government interference at every possible level. The interface between the people and the government is stuck in a colonial time warp of an all-powerful sarkar whose whims people are beholden to in a mai-baap relationship, rather than people being the bosses and the government an unobtrusive provider of basic social services and driving policy to faciliate the people's economic and social efforts.

Call me a libertarian if you like, but that's how I see it. Every government until now, despite their accounts of their success, has been a massive failure as a provider of basic economic and social services by any international yardstick. It has nothing to do with the political hue of the government and everything to do with the fact that the government is entangled in something they have no bloody business being in. Instead we have "questions of priorities", "selective investment in aviation", "no privatization of profitable PSUs (public sector undertakings, i.e. government run entities like AI)", "PSUs have a social obligation", the nincompoops of the AAI and their CPI/CPM patrons wailing about efforts to improve airports because it cuts off their own fingers from the till  Insane
 
ba319-131
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:07 pm

Totally mad,however it does not surprise me,sadly Sad
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
Vimanav
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:29 pm

6 months... 180 days.. is all I give this Government, before they self destruct. Mind you, we have the right guys as PM and Fin. Minister, but those miserable Commies they have allied themselves with will bring them down.

Truly sad Sad
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
Russophile
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:34 pm

Does any other country impose the same taxation levels on aircraft leasing?

Yes, Russia imposes 40% on all foreign aircraft importation. And it's something that I support 110%!

India is a different case though.

Also, you will find that most countries will have some degree of taxation of aircraft imports.
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:20 pm


I'm completely against any investment that is 'government directed'.

The path of India's economic development is tied to how little the government is present in the decision makings of any sector, not how much it is.


Well boo diddly hoo barfbag! The Govt is going to play a role in policy making and a positive one this time as compared to what happened the past 6 years! That is its role. Giving direction to the market IS the job of the govt. The govt in your favorite country does so too. How would u justify the billions of dollars paid out as subsidy to favoured carriers after 9/11? So much for a so-called free market!!

India is not "your favorite country". Not yet. And till then, the govt must continue to play an active role in developing the aviation sector and providing overall direction. I am not an advocate of state owning airlines, but providing directions in thru policy initiatives is perfectly legit. There are parts of this country that need airlinks for development. There are over 360 developed airfields in the country which are unused and need to be further developed as commercial nodes. More so because of the lack of other infrastructre like roads. Our study (restricted to Maharashtra) showed that developing a good semi-subsidised air system may actually be cheaper than revamping the network of state highways. Hence the need to influence the flow of investment, state and pvt, towards aviation in smaller centers like Kolhapur and Nasik.

-Roy
 
BarfBag
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:59 pm

India is not "your favorite country". Not yet.

Ooh... the tired "ignorant unpatriotic NRI don't know nuthin' compared to proud deshbakht me" argument again. And who the hell are you to tell me which country I should favour ? I'll completely ignore your bizarre nonsequitur about the 9/11 bailout, because I have no idea what sort of a point you're trying to make, particularly when you have no idea what MY opinion on that subject happens to be.

No matter how you argue "policy making by Government", it becomes Government intervention in the course of time. Sticking to the aviation sector in India alone provides everything I need to argue this case. Lets start with just policy, not even presence in the sectors through AI/IA. Aviation has for decades been seen as the 'playground of the rich', toys for those hated bourgeoisie, who must therefore be taxed up their wazoo through fuel surcharges, IATTs and whatnot.

This simple example demonstrates the effect of government 'policy' on the ability of the aviation sector to develop. I don't even need to go into the government presence in the sector to demonstrate why the mere tinge of economic ideology on policy is enough to hurt the aviation sector. Rather than let it by driven largely by market forces, the sector is throttled by ideology and some minister's desire to utilize it as his personal favour-granting fiefdom. I'm all for government policy that unilaterally removes their ability to play a controlling role in any given sector, not one that constrains it. I believe government driven policy that 'influences investment' in aviation is inherently unsound because:
a) investmnt ought to be determined by market forces
b) the economic ideology of the government is implicitly tied to such a move.
Our PSUs, those gigantic, inefficient, money sucking white elephants, are examples, in the thousands, of where 'government influenced investment' has led things to. The market is the best arbiter on investment, period. Its been proved everywhere, not just the US or India.

There are several aspects of India's taxation regime that need revision. Taxation of the service sector is among them. Its not a simple matter of the sector being taxed too little/much, but that the entire regime is outdated; taxation must be a system of collecting user service charges in a capiltalist economic system, not some overarching system tied to socialist ideology from four decades ago. I welcome some changes, e.g. the taxation on NRE deposits (which were practically a subsidy to NRIs), as much as I'm deeply critical of others, like the ones in the aviation sector that are the subject of this thread.
 
dl021
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 12:52 am

I guess I got my answer.. I even got to hear Russyphile throw in a point about Sovi..i mean socialist style protectionism that stifles trade and growth. Are these 40% taxes helping Russian civil aviation grow? Will government meddling help the Indian civav sector grow....or will these impediments to growth stifle foreign investment (even more) and force people to lease airplanes registered in Bermuda and other get-around-the-man tactics to try and run employment and revenue generating businesses?
Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?
 
jwenting
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:00 am

Don't you love socialism?

Air travel is for the rich bourgeois so needs to be curtailed.
Travel in general is bad, people should stay where they're put.
I wish I were flying
 
TKMCE
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:56 pm

As Sean said in his first post, major setback will be to low cost Air Deccan as well as govt owned Indian Airlines.

Don't need to guess too much who benefits!

This is not the commies playing around but some vested capitalists and is nothing but an effort to block the entry of LCCs as well as conveniently blocking Indian Airlines who is struggling for capacity in the short term!

And as far as priorites are concerned, bringing air fares down will not just benefit the rich, it will also ensure a lot of people who otherwise can never even dream of flying will also be able to do so! India is a vast country and alternate infrastructure like roads are poor! Lower airfrares will also benefit a lot in terms of more productivity in terms of savings on unproductive manhours lost travelling huge distances in trains and buses!

An example - Chennai Hyderabad - the fastest train takes a whopping 13 hours as opposed to a flight duration of one hour!

Cheapest APEX or Air Deccan fare is Rs 2300. Train fares on II Sleeper is 300 and II tier AC 1300 .Now if the air fares are brought down to the 1000-1500 level everyone benefits!

I thought things will change for the better with this governement. But it seems they are still being armtwisted by the same old people who influenced the earilier government as well.

Disgusting!



 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:16 pm

"There are parts of this country that need airlinks for development. There are over 360 developed airfields in the country which are unused and need to be further developed as commercial nodes."

Then develop the infrastructure and let the market decide what size, frequency, fare structure these routes will demand.

Why, there are parts of India that need jobs in the IT industry too. Perhaps, the GOI should force Infosys and Tata Consulting and Microsoft to shift their offices from Bombay and Bangalore to Nasik and the Chambal valley. I'm sure that Phoolan Devi's second cousin twice removed and her brood need call center jobs too. Now how's that for some REAL development !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Russophile
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:51 pm

Dl021

I guess I got my answer.. I even got to hear Russyphile throw in a point about Sovi..i mean socialist style protectionism that stifles trade and growth. Are these 40% taxes helping Russian civil aviation grow?



Do you really want to talk about "socialist style protectionism". Well, how about we discuss the protectionist policies that the US government places on agriculture. Ask any Australian farmer what they think when an American claims that they are a free market place. They will likely laugh in your face, right after they spit in it.
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:32 pm

The comparison with the Russian policy of taxing non-Russian AC purchases and leases is odious at best. Russia has a viable indigenous aircraft industry that churns out perfectly acceptable copycat aircraft; India does not. What the GOI believes it will achieve by taxing AC leases only God knows.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Russophile
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:35 pm

Precisely Jaysit, which is why I stated that India is a different story to the Russian example of duties.

But copycat aircraft? Big grin
 
donder10
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:39 pm

Ask any Australian farmer what they think when an American claims that they are a free market place. They will likely laugh in your face, right after they spit in it.


Most large industrial countries (wrongly)protect agriculture and the EU is by far the worst offender.At least the US is trying to negotiate to bring down such high levels of protection unilaterally with the EU+South Korea etc.I'm sure there are areas where Australia has higher import rates than the US but this is off topic some what.



Back on top.Roy,do you seriously buy into the balanced growth theory?In most/all developing countries growth starts off in the urban areas first before spreading to the countryside so India is probably still too rural today.China and the majority of growth being on the south-east coast from Beijing to Guangzhou(/HK) is a perfect example of this.So why try and stifle one of the area of the economy that could rapidly grow bringing in more jobs through the multiplier,higher tax revenue and output allowing the government to further invest in infastructure in the countryside and cities(the lack of it is one of the main reasons China has raced ahead of India)?
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 5:56 pm


Ooh... the tired "ignorant unpatriotic NRI don't know nuthin' compared to proud deshbakht me" argument again.

Tired? Hardly! Just stating the obvious!! Your arguments always make u sound like a typical hardcore NRKD (Non-Resident Knicker Dhari). I have always wondered why it is that Indians living OUTSIDE India often are more belligerent when it comes to culture and communal violence. Anyways I will leave you with your dreams on turning India into a “Modi-stan” and all your pogrom fantasies. Its not happening!

Before criticizing THIS govt for these decisions, pl. remember that many of these decisions were taken by the previous govt (which you so vehemently support) when they were not planning any more pogroms against its own people. And the finance ministers speech only outlined PROPOSALS which are always put before the industry before implementation.

The difference is that this time decisions are taken based on a well defined action plan and not influenced by various lobbies as was the case with Vajpayees cash and carry govt. The Naresh Chandra report which was drafted under the Vajpayee govt should have been called the Naresh Goyal report considering its contents. Even today, the BJP insists in Parliament that the Naresh Chandra report must be the basis for reforms in the Aviation sector? Which essentially means throttling IC, AI and CD, artificially restricting their growth and handing over the market to EK, BA, 9W and S2!!


6 months... 180 days.. is all I give this Government, before they self destruct. Mind you, we have the right guys as PM and Fin. Minister, but those miserable Commies they have allied themselves with will bring them down.

I disagree. The Commies will make noises yes but THEY will not pull down this Govt. True, they bitterly hate the Congress, but they hate the BJP and its knicker-clad crowd even more and wont do anything to that will give them a chance to come back. The very fact that a Congress govt INCREASED FDI levels in the aviation sector is indication that they are confident of the Left’s viewpoint on these matters. BarfBags idiotic assertions of Left-parties being the spoilers goes against the ground realities of the record of the Left parties over the reforms process. Remember, it was the Left-backed UF which set up the Disinvestment Commission in 1997, which incidentally his favoured party opposed bitterly, in Parliament and outside.

So my forecast is that this Govt will last till Diwali-2006 or so, when the Congress will itself call for elections, this time under a new leadership (wink wink). The plan is first work on reviving the Congress in crucial states like UP,MP, Rajasthan and Maharashtra, and second to de-BJP-fy the Indian polity and plug the loopholes that enabled the fascist BJP to go from 2 seats to 182 seats. Both plans are proceeding in tandem with BJP appointed Governors being sacked and national institutions being “purified” of the BJP influence. This should take till atleast Nov-2006 to complete and this govt will continue till then. Both the left and the Congress are broadly in agreement on this plan and so I don’t foresee any trouble from their side at all. In any case, and this is my forecast, the BJP as it exists is headed for a major split before the end of this year!

As far as aviation policy is concerned, I expect to see a uniformity of policy decisions based on clearly defined agenda. The policy will not change even after 2006 when the “Good Doc” is sent to Rashtrapati bhavan and the Young Turks take over the GOP. And what do I expect to see:More sops for LCC’s and airlines serving remote communities in the form of tax breaks and user charges. I also expect to see MAJOR reforms in the aviation infrastructure. There is a well defined plan to convert 12 major airports into independent companies and then disinvest PART of the equity to private investors. Infact, the state owned airlines AI/IC are already setting up a JV company to take over the equity in these airports as they are are hived off into companies. Perhaps Sean will have more dope on this? Foreign participation in existing airports may be curbed (as it should be) but expect more private participation, including with foreign equity, in GREENFIELD airports. There will also be greater outsourcing of service related activity atleast in DEL,BOM and MAA. Most importantly, there will be no flip-flop-flips on policy.

So I see no reason for worry. I have more confidence in the Congress party’s ability to deliver on reforms than the Cash-and carry govt run by the BJP.

-Roy
 
jaysit
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:27 pm

Il-96 ----> Vc10
Tu-204 ---> Boeing 757

etc.

In any case, why should aircraft leases be taxed? If the airline industry is one that according to the old cobweb infested socialist babus of the new-old- but fundamentally confused Congress only caters to the rich, then tax all aircraft purchases heavily too. After all, taxes on a $ 120 million A340 can line the pockets of at least 2000 tax officials !!
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Russophile
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:52 pm

Il-96 ----> Vc10
Tu-204 ---> Boeing 757

etc.


Jaysit, I didn't take you for one of those idiots who claim that everything to come out of the Soviet Union is a 'copy' of European and American aircraft.

All I have to say in response to that is

Whatever

I, as well as others, have wasted enough of our time in the past teaching the ignorant, and I personally can't be bothered anymore.

But I will say, that your argument is shown to be weak when you can't even get the aircraft type right. It is Il-62, not Il-96 -- the Il-96 is the design that Airbus stole for their A340  Insane
 
BarfBag
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RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:55 pm

Roy - you're utterly incapable of comprehending or accepting that someone can have a position on politics that differs from yours, without your turning that person into a caricature in your own mind. I'd once again rather ignore your personal attacks against me or my beliefs because I have neither any interest in explaining them to you, nor is it the topic of this thread.

I'll just assert I've every goddamn right to praise, criticize or comment on any aspect of my country or its government as I please wherever I happen to be at any given time, and I'll do so whether you like it or not. If that gets your hackles then go see a doctor. You can keep bawling about it as much as you like and I'll just keep ignoring you and getting a good laugh out of it. Now onto the topic of the thread...

My stance on the Naresh Chandra report and the NDA's position regarding it aren't even remotely close to what you assumed it is. I pretty much back B747-437B's contention in terms of being highly critical of it. Aviation policy has been ridiculously mismanaged as a matter of rule no matter whose sitting at the gaddi in Dilli. Your inability to comprehend that anyone else can view government policy in nonpartisan terms and criticize or praise it on its own technical merits is hardly my problem.

Your faith in the Congress is touching; if they deliver even a fraction of what you claim they will despite past record, I'll be the first to commend them for it. So far they've done a barely passable job with the CMP and the budget, though I expect your opinion varies. But please, spare us a lengthy post in support of the budget - I'll prefer to form impressions on my own, not based on what you or the media spoonfeeds me.
 
jaysit
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Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:36 am

"But I will say, that your argument is shown to be weak when you can't even get the aircraft type right. It is Il-62, not Il-96 -- the Il-96 is the design that Airbus stole for their A340"

Sorry, it is the Il-62. That was a typo. But you know what I'm talking about. If the Il-62 wasn't a VC10 copy, then what was? At least the -62 had no competition in the Eastern bloc from the 707 or the DC-8. And at least its primary operator didnt lambast it like BOAC did to the VC10. And, uh, what about the Tu-144 versus Concorde?

Furthermore, the A340 is nowhere a copy of the Il-96 series. For one, the A340 was a logical expansion of the A300 family. Different market (long range), different economics, cabin width, etc etc. Sorry, but the A340 being a copy of the Il-96 is like saying that the DC-3 was a copy of Icarus !
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:33 am

Jaysit,
I´ve got to correct you about the TU-204.
Two years ago I was running the CIA (Rome Ciampino) maintenance station for UPS for a month.
I had a 757-200PF to take care of and TNT had a chartered TU-204 parked right beside my plane.
I´m licenced on the B757, so I think I know what I´m talking about.
I made friends with the Russian crew and their English translator (a mechanic as well, TNT insisted on him flying with the plane, even though at least the pilots spoke good English). I had several occasions to have a good look at the TU-204 (inside and outside) and to compare the systems.
The TU-204 is much more advanced than the 757. It has a full Honeywell glass cockpit and full fly-by-wire.
The only anachronism is a flight engineer´s station, which was installed due to Russian certification requirements at the time of it´s design ("a plane this size requires a three man crew"). The captain told me that the flight engineer is only required on ground and that on the TU-214 they will get rid of him alltogether.
In short, the TU-204 is technologically somewhere between the B-757 and the A-320.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:34 am

Jaysit,
I´ve got to correct you about the TU-204.
Two years ago I was running the CIA (Rome Ciampino) maintenance station for UPS for a month.
I had a 757-200PF to take care of and TNT had a chartered TU-204 parked right beside my plane.
I´m licenced on the B757, so I think I know what I´m talking about. On a previous job I also worked two years on Airbus A320 aircraft.
I made friends with the Russian crew and their English translator (a mechanic as well, TNT insisted on him flying with the plane, even though at least the pilots spoke good English). I had several occasions to have a good look at the TU-204 (inside and outside) and to compare the systems.
The TU-204 is much more advanced than the 757. It has a full Honeywell glass cockpit and full fly-by-wire.
The only anachronism is a flight engineer´s station, which was installed due to Russian certification requirements at the time of it´s design ("a plane this size requires a three man crew"). The captain told me that the flight engineer is only required on ground and that on the TU-214 they will get rid of him alltogether.
In short, the TU-204 is technologically somewhere between the B-757 and the A-320.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:52 am

"The TU-204 is much more advanced than the 757."

So, its a technologically advanced Boeing 757 .
Good to hear ! Hopefully, I will be flying her on a Moscow - Mumbai flight this fall ! Always had a fondness for Russian aircraft.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Vimanav
Posts: 1439
Joined: Thu Jul 31, 2003 4:33 am

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:04 am

Hopefully, I will be flying her on a Moscow - Mumbai flight this fall !

Jaysit... you're likely to get her more advanced sister the TU214. Good Luck Smile/happy/getting dizzy

rgds//Vimanav
Sarfaroshi kii tamannaa ab hamaare dil mein hai, Dekhnaa hai zor kitnaa baazu-e-qaatil mein hai
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:52 am

"Jaysit... you're likely to get her more advanced sister the TU214."

That would be the SUPER advanced Boeing 757 !!!

In any case, lets get back to the topic at hand.

I guess Air India's lease handicaps are to Aeroflot's continued advantage. What a total farce. So much for direction provided by the new old Congress.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Russophile
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:02 am

Sorry, it is the Il-62. That was a typo. But you know what I'm talking about.

For me to know what you are talking about, I would have to recognise that you indeed do know what you are talking about. And I do not believe this is the case.

Enough said?
 
ACAfan
Posts: 690
Joined: Fri Apr 30, 2004 11:25 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plan

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:05 am


Its like restoring a man's eyesight, but then giving him a frontal lobotomy at the same time.


Not quite. A frontal lobotomy will not affect the eyesight. Visual processing is done in the occipital (posterior) part of the brain.

A removal of the frontal lobe would impair judgement and planning.

 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Freddie Laker ... May be at peace with his maker ... But he is a persona non grata ... with IATA
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:05 am

"And I do not believe this is the case."

Oh, who gives a @#$%.
Get your Russian made coarse knickers out of a wad. Or is it the sandpaper Russian TP thats causing the snitch?

Most of those Soviet era jets were a pile of junk anyways. Interesting to look at, but junk all the same. Now go tell LOT Polish that their decision to go in for Western built jets after their Il-62 crashed was based on anything other than safety reasons.

Geez. And we thought Brezhnev was a grump.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:28 am

Interestingly enough, the Indian newspapers are reporting that AI and IC may have to sign agreements in locations where India has a double tax exemption agreement in order to avoid the lease tax. Like Dubai or Mauritius, for example.

Any Indian corporate tax experts know how or if this could work? I cannot imagine that PC's little taxation gurus would not have contemplated cutting off this loophole.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
Russophile
Posts: 1304
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 9:22 am

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:48 am

Get your Russian made coarse knickers out of a wad. Or is it the sandpaper Russian TP thats causing the snitch?

At least in Russia, they don't have to resort to using a leaf, or your hand, like in India.

Funny that you claim you are an 'admirer' of Russian aviation, yet you have done nothing but bag them.

And your assertion that the Il-62 didn't have any competition is wrong (surprise, surprise). The Il-62 did in fact have competition in Eastern Europe. Didn't you know that TAROM operated both the Il-62 and 707? Which aircraft did they keep for the longest time? Wasn't the Il-62 was it?

And the Il-62 safe? Just as safe as the DC-10 -- remember, that's the jet that liked to go cartwheels down runways, and put on (unsuccessfully) aerobatic displays at O'Hare Airport.

But to claim that the Il-62 is a direct copy of the VC-10 is laughable. Particularly as the only things they really share in common is the same configuration. But yet, the A340, which shares the same configuration as the Il-96-300, is an upgrade of the A300 (although it looks nothing like it).

It's good enough to claim that the Soviets copied non-Soviet aircraft on nothing more than the basis that they look 'similar', but it is not good enough to claim that non-Soviet aircraft are not copies of Soviet aircraft based on nothing more than the basis that they look 'similar'?

Now that I understand you.

I must say, having shown this thread to a few friends in Russia, they laugh at the sheer stupidity of people who make such assertions as you have in this very thread.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15455
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:26 am

"In short, the TU-204 is technologically somewhere between the B-757 and the A-320."

I think the 757 still outperforms the TU-204 in many ways (range, speed, payload, etc) despite the 204 being more 'technologically advanced'.
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
jaysit
Posts: 10186
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2000 11:50 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:35 am

"And the Il-62 safe? Just as safe as the DC-10 -- remember, that's the jet that liked to go cartwheels down runways, and put on (unsuccessfully) aerobatic displays at O'Hare Airport."

That still doesn't answer why LOT Polish openly said after the Il-62 crash near Warsaw that the Il-62 and her Soviet compatriots presented serious safety issues.

"At least in Russia, they don't have to resort to using a leaf, or your hand, like in India."

Actually, luv, they use water. Thats why they have shiny sparkly bums. Something you wouldnt understand. You should try it. It would do a good job cleansing you of all that HEAVY sodden food y'all eat.

"But to claim that the Il-62 is a direct copy of the VC-10 is laughable."

Not a billionth as laugheable as saying that the A340 copied the Il-96 (or even Il-86 for that matter). I'm sure all of Toulouse is cracking up at your idiotic assertion. Whoever said that Russians didn't have a sense of humor ! What next? The Boeing 737 copied the Tu-104? LOL.

"Didn't you know that TAROM operated both the Il-62 and 707? Which aircraft did they keep for the longest time? Wasn't the Il-62 was it?"

Bet you didn't know that Boeing was under enormous pressure to stop supplying aircraft parts to Tarom. Bet you didnt know that the 707 line ceased years before the Il-62. Bet you didnt know how cheaply the Il-62 was offered.

Keep making obnoxious assertions. They can be shot down easily every time.
Atheism is Myth Understood.
 
dl021
Posts: 10836
Joined: Fri May 21, 2004 12:04 pm

RE: Indian Government Blocks Aircraft Leasing Plans

Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:22 am

OK..so the problem is not just political but graft (to get back to the topic) and people are using the new govt to create a haven for the legacy carriers and stifle the opportunity of LCC's in India...is that about it?

Are there any loopholes left for the LCC's to squeeze through, and will the legacy carriers be able to renew their fleets.. Will the competition be thrown back open?

Oh, yeah......While it is amusing to get Russopile excited, it is frustrating when he confuses civil aviation and civil discourse with rude, vulgar, and pretty fanciful accusations and opinions.

The IL-96 the model for the A-340? It was an improved copy of the IL-86 that had real difficulty flying regularly.

The IL-62 was kept flying by those airlines only until they could afford new western aircraft.
Dude, get a grip.

Is my Pan Am ticket to the moon still good?

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