BA
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2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:02 pm

Take a look at this picture and read the remark:

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Photo © Serge Bailleul


Could anyone explain why an A321 had to maintain a 2 hour holding pattern because of a small private plane that appears to be a Piper blocking the runway? Did it really take 2 hours to move this small plane off the runway? Hey, I may be wrong, but that sounds a little excessive to me. If it were an airliner, then 2 hours would be understandable.

Also if the A321 was going to wait 2 hours, why didn't it divert to one of the other Greek islands?

Any feedback would be appreciated.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
L-188
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:09 pm

Well judging from the fact they are loading the aircraft with a forklift onto a Lantis, and judging from the weird angle the left wing is at, I submit that we are looking at a gear up landing.

Which means it wasn't moving until the aircraft was cleared off the runway.

As far the the A321 not diverting, well if they had the gas, and since that isn't where the passengers where going, then why not wait. Who knows maybe it took longer then they though.

BTW: I think that is an early Beech Big grin
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BA
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 7:15 pm

Well judging from the fact they are loading the aircraft with a forklift onto a Lantis, and judging from the weird angle the left wing is at, I submit that we are looking at a gear up landing.

Which means it wasn't moving until the aircraft was cleared off the runway.


I understand this my friend, but my point is 2 hours seems a little excessive to move a small private plane off the runway even with the aircraft lying on its belly with its gears up.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
desertjets
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:17 pm

Also you would need to figure in sometime for the airport operations people to sweep the runway and make sure it is clear. I am sure a gear up landing would leave little bits and pieces behind.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
L-188
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:23 pm

To be honest, I think they made pretty good time.

Figure the tower woudl have shut down the Apt right away.
Airport fire/operations would have responded.
Figure 15-20 minutes to determine the status of the occupants and risks (fire, fuel leaks) from the airplane.
Figure another half hour discussing a plan of attack.
Assuming the lantis was their first idea to move the aircraft, figure another 5-10 minutes calling around to find somebody willing to loan them a lantis.
After they locate one figure 10 minutes to get it out there.
Figure figure another half and hour to get the lantis set up and the aircraft on it.
10 minutes to drive the lantis off the runway.
Then the FOD check and sweeping as needed.

Some of those tasks can be stacked, but they still made pretty good time.
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RduBE90Pilot
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:30 pm

Having worked around GA for some time now I have seen it take anywhere from 10 minutes to 4 hours to move a plane off a runway. It depends on the situation. When I worked in Bedford, MA, MASSPORT was very keen on us moving any disabled plane off an active runway "by any means necessary". Once they told us to hook up a chain between the plane and tug and pull it off to the side of the runway.

Things can go wrong too. I was involved in a mechanical gear-up a few years back in a Piper Cheyenne. We landed just fine, only bending the props and taking off an antenna or two and a little paint. The airport authority (not at Bedford) sent a wrecker in with a sling style hoist. No problem right? Ha. The moron operating the hoist put the slings around the wings at the wingroots instead of around the fuselage. Well as soon as the plane was lifted off the ground the slings ripped through the wings nearly to the wing spar. It took about 3 hours to get it off the runway in the end.

P.S. The plane in the pic looks to be a Piper Comanche based on the tip tank and the side window on the right side of the fuselage.

Eric
 
BA
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Fri Jul 09, 2004 11:29 pm

Thanks for all the feedback. One of the reasons I like these forums is you learn so much.

It's great to hear feedback for those who have had experience on such issues. Thanks again.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
speedbird128
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:51 am

Also, don't forget you may not move any wreckage or disturb an accident scene without the approval of the accident investigators. This could also take a little while. As an ATC I have had to close my active runway more than once till we had approval for the aircraft to be moved off....

Bryan
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BA
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:12 am

Also, don't forget you may not move any wreckage or disturb an accident scene without the approval of the accident investigators.

Good point, I forgot about this.

Thanks for the info.

Regards
"Generosity is giving more than you can, and pride is taking less than you need." - Khalil Gibran
 
RduBE90Pilot
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 9:06 am

Also, don't forget you may not move any wreckage or disturb an accident scene without the approval of the accident investigators.

Not necessarily true in the US. A collapsed gear is not considered an accident. I have been in a gear-up landing and witnessed multiple gear failures while rolling out or taxing. No investigation needed. Assuming there are no casualties or "major" damage. The insurance investigator on the other hand, well, he'll be around soon enough, LOL.

Eric
 
Cessna172RG
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:43 pm

When I was working on my Private license at Tacoma/Narrows (KTIW), on one hot Summer day in '99, my FBO's boss was flying with a buddy in an old biplane. Not sure what kind it was, but when I got to the airport, the plane was just coming in. Apparently what happened was that whoever was flying it (not sure if it was my FBO's owner or his friend) hit the brakes on touchdown. Now, it's NOT a Cessna with Tricycle gear, it's a tail dragging biplane. Know what happens if you hit the brakes on touchdown? You go nose first into the runway and flip. Well, that is what happened.

To sum up the event, Tacoma Narrows was closed for about three hours until they got the plane cleared and the runway cleaned up and everything reopened.

My flight instructor, having a lesson before mine, ended up diverting to Bremerton to wait it out. I didn't fly that day...

So yeah, it takes a while to clean these things up.
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L-188
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:00 pm

P.S. The plane in the pic looks to be a Piper Comanche based on the tip tank and the side window on the right side of the fuselage.

They used to have a Comanche where I work. The window on that one was more squared off then the one in that photo looks.

I suspect it might be an early Bonanza, or debonair.

Beech used rounder windows, and some also had tip-tanks.
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ua777222
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:48 am

Here at KCCR a guy was doing touch and goes in his Mooney and instead of hitting the flaps he hit the gear. The guys spent the entire night (we're talking hours 5-8) scraping the damn thing off the runway and then making sure there were no FOD's on the runway. Now this was probably 10-15 guys so I would say 2hrs is good time!

I think it would cost whatever airline holding up there more to divert. If you saw Airline UK the EasyJet that had to divert to an airport with no EasyJet service. That was a 737-300 and it was 2,000 to just refill the thing. Imagine a A321 the size of a 757 having to be filled up again. And then having to return to the airport that was shut down. If you have the extra fuel I would wait and not cause any other issues.

UA777222
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corey07850
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Sun Jul 11, 2004 12:08 pm

Also don't forget that the A321 wasn't put in a 2 hour hold as soon as the plane touched down, it probably began holding a good 1/2 hour before the plane actually "landed" to make sure all traffic would not be a factor
 
sccutler
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Pla

Sun Jul 11, 2004 1:56 pm

It's a Comanche, pre-1966 (two side windows). The flat fuselage top helps give it away.

And yes, 2 hours is not excessive.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Cpn360
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RE: 2 Hour Holding Pattern For A Small Private Plane?

Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:52 pm

BA,

I supplied the photo/remarks. My remarks are based on what I've seen and TWR communications.

The reason why it took that long to vacate the RWY is already explained in some of the replies above.
The reason why the aircraft did not divert... Well, the only one who knows the answer on that one, should be the Captain of that flight. An international flight has always (mandatory) fuel enough onboard to deal with unexpected situations like this. For some reasons sometimes the best solution is to stay in a holding pattern. If diverting, the chance that the crew will exceed their maximum duty time is real. And then the serious problems can start... IMO the cost price for a company when diverting will also be a factor on the decision to divert or not.

Serge
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