njdevilsin03
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Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:31 am

Any idea on who will be the first U-S commercial airline to order the 7e7? Recently the European carriers have made their announcements could we expect a US announcement soon?
717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
 
NYC777
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:43 am

Though it won't happen anytime soon but the first carriers I think will be CO and AA. They're in the best shape vis a vis other US carriers and they do have a large number os 767 and similar sized aircraft that can be easily replaced by the 7E7.
That which does not kill me makes me stronger.
 
USairways16BWI
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:45 am

I know this is highly doubtful, but the 7e7 would look really cool in usairways colors!  Big thumbs up
 
hz747300
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:46 am

This has been discussed a bunch here. The speculation is that airlines that could use it (UA, DL, AA) cannot afford it. Then there is NW, which is just starting to take deliveries of the A330, which leaves CO as a widebody operator which could theoretically use it as well.

My guess would be CO - if for no other reason, they could afford an order, and just maybe it would fit into their plans to phase out 767's. But I would not expect a CO order for at least 18-24 months.

My surprise pick would be Hawaiian Airlines.
Keep on truckin'...
 
miaskies
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:46 am

Ditto on that NYC777...I say AA and CO as well...who knows maybe Hawaiian or Aloha to serve cities in the East Coast! That could be interesting...
Nothing better than making love at 35K Feet!
 
scottysair
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:47 am

Yes, They are very interesting about 7E7 and will make their decison to make orders with 7E7.
 
njdevilsin03
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:48 am

Now what's going to be the basic seating configuration for the aircraft? 3-3-3 or 2-3-2?
717, 727, 731, 732, 733, 734, 735, 73G, 738, 752, 753, 762, 763, 777, DC9, MD80, DC10, L1011, ERJ, CRJ, ATR, DH8, A300,
 
scottysair
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:49 am

I think the basic will use with their seat with 3-3-3 or 2-3-2.
 
nealcg
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:58 am

The first US Customer of the 7E7 will definitely be NW...to replace their DC-9s!

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ERJ170
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:05 am

Hmmm....

I would have to guess.. probably Aloha or Hawaiian.. they probably want to reach the East Coast at some point N/S! LOL.. just a guess...
Aiming High and going far..
 
Jaspike
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:05 am

 
isitsafenow
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:08 am

NEALCG..you're very funny today!..How bout JET BLUE with a try for international routes?(that's even funnier)
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:24 am

My bet goes with CO as a 767 replacement, and possibly NW to complement their new A330s* on international routes or on domestic routes that are too large for the 753 but do not require a DC-10.

*I know the A332 is a direct competitor, but the smallest 7E7s seat only approx. 200 pax, while the A332 is a 250-seater.
 
nearord
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:27 am

It's Independence Air, they will use them for the Europe and South America ops out of IAD. HE HE HE
 
Guest

RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:29 am

well we can rule UA DL and US, and probably AA too.

which leaves NW or one of the smaller airlines.
 
ua777222
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:30 am

In all seriousness I wish I could say UA but I would have to place my $$ on CO. AA still has other a/c on hold that they haven't gotten b/c they have no need for them (767(?) and a few 777's) so I don't think they're going to bite the bullet yet.

UA777222
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Bsmalls35
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:30 am

My guess would be ATA.
 
ua777222
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:31 am

And isn't CO the only all Boeing US International Airline? WN but they only have 737's in their fleet. I'm talking wide body's too.

UA777222
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JMV
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:32 am

I wouldn't be too surprised if NW was one of the early US carriers, if not the first. If they are, an announcement might come out in the fall after coming to some agreement on wages and work rules with the pilots.

Just a hunch.
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ConcordeBoy
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:46 am

And isn't CO the only all Boeing US International Airline?

Delta as well (though, for both, you have to count McDD as Boeing)
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
DIA
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:55 am

Could the 7E7 become the first-ever Boeing airliner that doesn't have a U.S. carrier as a launch customer?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
desertjets
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:57 am

Given the cyclical nature of the aviation business it is highly likely the AA, DL, UA, and CO will order the 7E7 at some point. But I doubt that any of the four would be among the launch customers given their current financial state.
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
scottysair
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:58 am

Jaspike,

this is very good US Airways colors with 7E7. I am really like them alot for myself and maybe some of these airlines make orders them with 7E7.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:58 am

Could the 7E7 become the first-ever Boeing airliner that doesn't have a U.S. carrier as a launch customer?

The first all-new family, yes.

However, the 773A was the first Boeing model derivative to never have a USA launch customer.
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dvk
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:11 am

My bet is on AA. CO is still taking regular delivery of new aircraft to replace the soon-to-be-gone MD80's, as well as the 733's. Their 767's are young. Unless they see enough potential for expansion to require more widebody aircraft, I think they'll wait before ordering the 7E7. The leases on AA's A300's begin expiring in 2008, and the most likely replacement is the 7E7. AA could convert some of its 777 options to 7E7, because of the arrangement they have with Boeing, and I think this is likely to happen.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
ConcordeBoy
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:13 am

AA could convert some of its 777 options to 7E7, because of the arrangement they have with Boeing, and I think this is likely to happen.

...not if AA gets upcoming rights to the PRC
Faire du ciel le plus bel endroit de la terre c'est impossible sans Concorde!
 
dvk
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:23 am

What is the PRC?
x
x
x
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
Alitalia744
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:34 am

Wasn't the 737 launched with a non-US customer? LH?
Some see lines, others see between the lines.
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:35 am

Dvk -

PRC = the Peoples Republic of China
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.
 
starrion
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:36 am

People's Republic of China who have authorized additional flights between china and the US.

DL: No money
AA: no money
UA: no money
CO: little money, no need yet
US: Money? What's money?
B6: BO wing? Haven't heard of them...
ATA: Maybe. They have some L1011's that need to be replaced
WN: HAHAHAHAHAHAHa!
HP: No need
F9: """"
IA: Let's see if they're around in 18 months
Knowledge Replaces Fear
 
dvk
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:55 am

Oh...I'd forgotten about the additional China routes. Does AA have an inside track on them? I can see why the 777 would be needed for them, since the wait for the 7E7 would be too long.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
ORDagent
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:01 am

According to my AA sales rep they are very advanced in house on getting everything in order to announce the launch. They think they have better than 50/50 odds. I hope they get it. We need more competition than just NW/UA over the Pacific.
 
HlywdCatft
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:47 pm

***However, the 773A was the first Boeing model derivative to never have a USA launch customer.***

I don't remember any USA launch customer for the 747-300.


Who will order the 7E7

AA has a big potential- aging 767-200s. The 767-300s are approacing 16 years old or so, and so are the 757s which I think also came in the late 80s early 90s. If AA gets back in shape, there could eventually be a giant order over time for 200+ 7E7s to replace the 757s and 767s

America West- hmmmm, they do have some really old Republic 757s that are close to 20 years old, but do they want anything bigger than the A320 after the 757s retire, or would they go for the A321?

ATA- The 7E7 would be great for L1011 replacements and for troop charters since they have much better range than the 757-300

Continental: They are a likely candidate, but remember their 767s are some of the newest produced. Didn't they just take their 767s in the last 5 years? The 757s are only about 10 years old too. If they ordered the 7E7 it would be probably about the time the aircraft was already in production.

Delta: They have some of the oldest 757s and 767s flying, but also some of the newest. Didn't they start receiving their 757s around 1984-85? The 767-200s around 1983 and the 767-300s around 1988? This could be another potential 200+ order once Delta pulls out of their current mess.

Northwest: People keep saying that they wont get the 7E7 because they have the A330, but what about as a 757 replacement? After all there is that smaller version of the 7E7 and Northwest has so old 757s in its fleet.

Sun Country: This could be the surprise one. Sun Country never did replace their DC-10s

United: Very likely, but need to be in better financial shape. Once they are, there is another giant possible order.

USAirways: No way.
 
gigneil
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 12:53 pm

Now what's going to be the basic seating configuration for the aircraft? 3-3-3 or 2-3-2?

2-4-2 or 3-2-3 have been batted around as the basic configurations. The plane will seat 8 customers per row in coach class.

After all there is that smaller version of the 7E7 and Northwest has so old 757s in its fleet.


There's only two sizes. One size is approximately the length of a 767-300, within a few feet, and the other is slightly larger than a 767-400ER. In a coach configuration, you seat 287 passengers in the smallest, which is over 60 seats more than NW fits on its largest 757. I don't see it happening.

If NW starts replacing 757-200s, they'll do it with the A321. There is no good replacement for their 757-300s, but they're all very new. I don't see any replacements happening soon.

N
 
dalecary
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:39 pm

It has been mentioned on the respected "Orders" site that NW is the most likely US early 7E7 orderer. I believe it is mainly to fragment the North Pacific,in particular to China. So, it wouldn't be a 757 or 330 replacement,but a new type, primarily utilised on the longer-thinner North Pacific sectors and maybe to give them better European access from the US West Coast.
Many longer routes that are now economically non-viable with 340/777/744, could now become more attractive with a 250 seat 8500nm 7E8( and that is a general statement,not just relating to NW).
 
SeaMeFly
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:20 pm

I believe NW wants to simplify their fleet in order to save $... Adding an additional type of a/c would require them to retrain most of the personnel (pilots, mechanics, FAs, training dept., etc..). Unless the 7E7 is similar in anyway to our already established fleet of 757 or 747, I don't think this would put 7E7 on a higher priority above A340 (which has similarity to the current fleet of A332 & A333).

Just my 2 pence.
 
NW7E7
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:29 pm

NW will sell their A330's to Boeing and they will get the 7E7's dirt cheap.

 
tcfc424
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:52 pm

I would place my money on CO, and as a secondary thought NW. My reasons for this are:

Continental...

1) Yes, they have a new fleet of 767's, but this is 2004...the 7E7 isn't due until 2009 and the productions available are probably 2010...that would make the average 767 age 10+ years...while not extraordinary, the 767 could see quite a bit of service for cargo?

2) While profits are negotiable, CO has the best financial situation and currently touts "The Newest All-Jet Fleet." I would not be surprised to see an order before Gordo retires...(maybe?)

Northwest...

1) They are the "dark horse." They are in a good financial position and while they have many orders remaining for the A330's, I could see Boeing working a buy-out deal here...it's a long shot, but still possible.

2) (This is WAYYYYYY out there) but in the event that CO and NW decide they could MERGE (I warned you....way out there) I could see NW going for an all-Boeing fleet, with the announcement of a 717 and 737 order going for the 7E7.

While the latter is less-likely, we all know that at some point, the old Diesel 9's are going to go bye-bye and something is going to have to fill that void. I hope (against hope) that they go with a mix of 737's and 717's, but I don;t see that happening. While the DC-9 topic is a frequent one, I would expect that NW is going to find themselves dropping a lot of routes as their DC-9's die before they seriously consider a replacement.

Mike S. in AUS
 
trevd
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:04 pm

NW7E7 & TCFC424 - I think both of you are spot on that NWA is the likely candidate as the first US customer for the 7E7, but 2 items I'd comment on:

1) No need to buy-out the A330's: NW has only a limited size fleet anyway and always intended to keep them somewhat captive on the Atlantic routes - was never a good pacific airplane.

2) There are no dirt cheap 7E7's: Boeing believes this airplane will be a winner and so far the response from the market seems to confirm this. Wish they would offer me the kind of 30% - 50% discounts that AI has been giving on A380's and A320's but no such luck.
 
Ken777
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:27 pm

My money is on AA. They have a commitment for a large number of planes and switching some to the 7E7 will look good for them and Boeing. They can always delay production by selling their slots to other airlines who have a strong need for them. Timing would be early enough to classify it as a launch order, some 737s would be delayed, as well as 777s and the new ones would replace older 767s as they go off lease.

If Boeing wants a US launch customer this would be their easiest sale. For AA it would be a good move in terms of hedging their bets.
 
tcfc424
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:35 pm

I am interested to know how many commitments AA has to Boeing aircraft. I am not attacking anyone, I am just curious, as I was under the impression AA had cancelled all of their orders. If there are outstanding orders, then I would suspect that AA would in fact be the US launch customer, if not at least the first to order the 7E7. That really does add some dimension to the discussion, and I would be curious to know what, if anything, remains as due to AA from Boeing...interesting.

Mike S. In AUS
 
cloudy
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:40 pm

AA, Delta, NW, etc. probably will happen sooner or later but I'll go out on a limb here and predict it will be a lo-co or semi-lo-co 757 operator such as America West or ATA. They would be most attracted to the plane's super-efficiency, and the 757 is no longer available new. This is what attracted the European charter operators who have just recently ordered. Of the legacy carriers, CO would be my bet as the first. Delta would have the largest order, I would think, of those likely to order eventually.

It is possible that JetBlue or Southwest would take a second look, especially for transcons and Florida routes. But this is a longshot. These guys like to be launch customers, however, so if they do order it will likely be soon.
 
SESGDL
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:54 pm

UA, CO, DL, AA, all are likely buyers, eventually. But because of the current airline financial state, I don't think the airlines are in the position to replace any of their planes, no matter how old. AA and DL will likely operate their 757 and 767 fleets well into their 30s with the way things are going. Both airline's 767-200s are 22+ years old, and there's no plans for retirement. A 20 year old NW-like fleet will be common place in the US I believe within the next 5-10 years, just like it was until about 6 years ago when AA, UA, NW, and CO operated large numbers of 727s and DC-10s, and DL operated many 727s and L-1011s, not to mention NW's and US's DC-9 fleets, and US, DL, CO, and UA's 737-200 fleet. Those UA 737-200s were super old, some delivered in the late 60s. I would like for DL to be the first order, and largest customer, they could replace the 757/767 and 777(which they seem to want to get rid of) with the same aircraft. That could be 300+ 7E7s!!!

Jeremy
 
dbo861
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:49 pm

I agree with Cloudy though that there is a good chance of it being a Low cost carrier. Many are much better off financially than the bigger legacy carriers.

"America West- hmmmm, they do have some really old Republic 757s that are close to 20 years old, but do they want anything bigger than the A320 after the 757s retire, or would they go for the A321?"

America West has emphasized that they do not want the A321 because of is poor performance in the desert heat. America West has been pretty successful, but hasn't gone the widebody route since they flew 747s unsuccessfully to Japan. But maybe they could be successful on that route with a smaller jet.

jetBlue probably wouldn't go for it though because of their love relationship with Airbus, so if they were interested in widebodied aircraft, I'd see them going for the A330. But I guess they have opted for the E195, so they already aren't going to be an all Airbus carrier..maybe if the price was right, Boeing could snatch an order from them.

Southwest is out of the question for obvious reasons, but then again, if the price is right...

I think ATA might be another possibility. They they could use the 7E7 to open more transatlantic routes or expand some of their domestic routes, or replace their L1011s for charters(I don't think they've expressed any interest in getting rid of their tristars, but face it...they can't last FOREVER).

I'm not familiar enough with many of the other loco carriers to make any other predictions, but long story short...I think we'll see an American low cost carrier be the American launch customer for the 7E7.

~Kind of off subject, but how much longer will Boeing wait to announce if they are going to change the "E" in 7E7 to "8" or make it 808 or just leave it 7E7 for good? Does the longer the wait to make an announce indicate they might just leave it as is?


[Edited 2004-07-13 10:57:26]
 
transPac
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e

Tue Jul 13, 2004 5:59 pm

I think ATA is a possibility, NW if they wanna play switcheroo with Boeing on the 332's (a good move IMO) and for my going out a limb choice I will suggest that maybe the sneaky eskimo at SEA might order some 7E3's in the next few years?
 
Indio66
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:10 pm

I would not be suprised at all to see Jet Blue looking at the 7E7 for future flights to Europe, especially with the shape Delta, US and UAL are in. Other alternative would be the 330.

 
dvk
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Wed Jul 14, 2004 1:56 am

AA hasn't cancelled any Boeing orders, other than the remaining 717's originally ordered by TWA. They have deferred delivery of new aircraft until 2006, but they still have 738's and 772's on order, and options which are flexible depending on their needs.
I'm not dumb. I just have a command of thoroughly useless information.
 
MAH4546
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:14 am

The 767-300s are approacing 16 years old or so, and so are the 757s which I think also came in the late 80s early 90s. If AA gets back in shape, there could eventually be a giant order over time for 200+ 7E7s to replace the 757s and 767s


AA has 767s that are less than two years old.

Most people on this thread are way over-stating AA's financial problems. US Airways, Delta, and United only wish they could be in the situation American Airlines is. Some are predicting American Airlines will be profitable in 2005, and judging by the strength of thier turn around, it doesn't seem that far fetched. And, as mentioned, they begin taking deliveries of more 738s and 777s in 2006 (March, IIRC).
a.
 
frugalqxnwa
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e

Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:21 am

CO and NW are the top two IMO.

CO- Will be a good move for down the road, if they can afford the down payments now.

NW- Will be a great supplement to A330 on pacific routes and could possibly replace DC-10s on domestic and Hawaii routes. A NW 7E7 order could possibly be combined with a large 717 order to replace the DC-9s, but the latter is unlikely. However, (and a little off-topic), the 717 would be ideal for NW because it has the same pilot rating as the DC-9 and is considered a DC-9 (which it really is) by the unions, so union negotiations are much smoother (but one never knows with NW's poor labor relations).

As for LCC orders, I would not be surprised if ATA ordered 7E7, but most other LCC will probably not order any. HP will probably haggle some deal for more used 757s, WN is bent on being an all-737 operator until death do they part, F9, Indy-Air, and B6 are Airbus customers now, and have no need for larger aircraft, and FL is just now ordering 737s as a step up from a pure 717 operation, and also has no business ordering widebodies.
 
BCAInfoSys
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RE: Who Will Be The 1st US Airline To Order The 7e7

Wed Jul 14, 2004 2:35 am

I'm going to toss my $0.02 and say that TZ will be the likely candidate, with 753 and L1011's to replace, the 7E7 makes a lot of sense.

And my first thought when I heard the speculation of NW was "No F-in way! Never." But the more I think about it.. the more it could possibly make sense. And I have to say, the 7E7 would look great in the old bowling-shoe, though that'll never happen. I'm still undecided about the new livery.
Militant Agnostic - I don't know and you don't either.