jmets18
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Jul 24, 2003 10:50 am

NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:21 am

As I was doing some research on http://www.airfleets.net/home/index.php I looked up NW airlines, and some of their DC-10's were delivered as late as 2000. Is this true? Almost all of there active DC-10 series aircraft that are flying were delivered after 1990. Can anyone coroborate this?

Thanks.......
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:34 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:25 am

Some were delivered to NW not too long ago.. They came from other airlines. Some of NW's DC10s were built in 1988..one of the last to come off the line. They do have some older ones, built in the 70s. None the less, age doesn't matter when it comes to aircraft.. Its all about the maintenance..  Big grin
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
Tasha
Posts: 537
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:34 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:28 am

I was told, by a NWA FO, after a flight from LGW to DTW, that the DC10-30 we just flew was delivered in 1973 or 1974. If so, it would have been very very old. This particular one didn't have the newer cabin lights, and still the old style round cabin lights and also - and very interestingly, all the ashtrays were there, and had obviously been used at one point or another. So this aircraft was definately quite elderly.

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
nwcoflyer
Posts: 677
Joined: Thu Jun 19, 2003 7:55 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:30 am

Yes, NW has some of the youngest DC-10's around, delivered as late as 88. That is younger than many 752's and 762's in the US. NW will keep the younger DC-10-30s (about a dozen) for another decade or so.
The New American is arriving.
 
MD11LuxuryLinr
Posts: 1311
Joined: Tue Jul 22, 2003 8:34 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:31 am

Go to Airlinerlist.com. They have a rather indepth history of just about every aircraft built for commercial/other. Download the DC10/MD11 file and have a look. You get to see the build date, registrations and owners (amongst other info) about each plane. It's good stuff..
Caution wake turbulence, you are following a heavy jet.
 
TomFoolery
Posts: 424
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:10 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:46 am

When boarding a DC/MD aircraft, you can see the manufacturers stamp in the (at a lack of a better term) front left exit. It will give you the MFG date. Sometimes it will be disturbing, and sometimes it won't. Yes, sometimes MWA has some old stuff, but for the most part, NWA takes really good care of their relics, and sometimes,that's all that matters.

regards,
tf
Paper makes an airplane fly
 
SegmentKing
Posts: 3224
Joined: Sun Aug 27, 2000 7:16 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:51 am

1973 means its one of the first DC-10s off of the line....
~ ~ ~ ~ pRoFeSsIoNaL hUrRiCaNe DoDgEr ~ ~ ~ ~
 
Tasha
Posts: 537
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 2:34 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:21 pm

Tom:

"When boarding a DC/MD aircraft, you can see the manufacturers stamp in the (at a lack of a better term) front left exit. It will give you the MFG date. Sometimes it will be disturbing, and sometimes it won't. Yes, sometimes MWA has some old stuff, but for the most part, NWA takes really good care of their relics, and sometimes,that's all that matters.

regards,
tf"

Right you are about the relics!!!  Big thumbs up It was a lovely flight, but unfortunately I was in coach... in the middle, the second seat in the 2 - 5 - 2, but there was no one in the 3rd seat so it was okay!

Tasha  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 1:27 pm

As said, age is irrelevant.

No DC-10 has crashed in years due to mechanical trouble, despite the aircraft getting older.
What crashes there have been since the late 1970s have been due to weather (windshear for example) and maintenance only.
Weather can happen to anyone, maintenance shouldn't happen if an airline will keep to FAA procedures which NWA does.

I wish I were flying
 
KDTWflyer
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:36 pm

I came back on N229NW as NW31 from LGW-DTW. The aircraft was delivered on 12/03/1972... Now that's pretty old lol. 31 Years, 7 Months, and 13 Days old as of today. Remember N220NW? It retired with I believe almost 120,000 hrs. That is 13.5 YEARS airborne on the airframe  Wow!


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © David Aaron


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Nicolas Kersting


NW B744 B742 B753 B752 A333 A332 A320 A319 DC10 DC9 ARJ CRJ S340
 
texdravid
Posts: 1415
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 3:21 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:42 pm

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these very old DC-10's gas guzzlers and thus hurting NW's bottom line?

Why would they keep the "newer" DC-10's in service then?

Personally, they need to buy more A330's and get rid of these relics. They may be well maintained and safe, but c'mon! The average passenger may not know the model or type of engine or MTOW's, etc., but they do know (and Mind!!) a old airplane when they see one!!
Tort reform now. Throw lawyers in jail later.
 
KDTWflyer
Posts: 787
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 12:51 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 2:51 pm

Well I guess since they own 14 DC-10s and are leasing the remaining 8, they don't want to take on a large purchase of new jets. I like the old DC-10s after the short DTW-HNL season later this year and early 2005 I wonder if I will ever see passenger DC-10s at DTW.
NW B744 B742 B753 B752 A333 A332 A320 A319 DC10 DC9 ARJ CRJ S340
 
iowa744fan
Posts: 906
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:31 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:37 pm

Just thought that I would mention a couple of figures about specific dates with some DC-10s:

The last one off the line was delivered to Nigeria Airways on, 25/07/89, July 25, 1989. So, all will be at least 15 years old in 10 days. However, given the age of many aircraft on the market, 15 is not too bad...granted the fuel consumption is higher than newer aircraft like the 777 or the 330.

A few other aircraft. Thai Airways had three DC-10-30ERs that were sold to NW, and the delivery dates for these three aircraft were: 1/12/87, 22/12/87, and 26/05/88. So, these three aircraft are not extremely old either (again, relatively speaking).

As for the series 40s, the youngest one was delivered to JAL on 27/01/82. However, I don't recall NW ever getting any -40s other than the ones that they ordered from the factory...but I could be wrong. The youngest -40 that was delivered to NW was delivered on 06/12/74, so these are quite a bit older.

 
oerk
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 8:45 pm

I disagree about being able to easily tell how old the NW DC-10s are. I flew on two of their oldest examples and was hard pressed to imagine they were both built in 1974. The interior was clean and the seating comparable to any early 90s era Airbus or Boeing.

Then they power up the engines...  Smile thats when you realise this thing did not roll off the production line yesterday - that is, if you can hear yourself think.

And 1974 is new... I flew the second DC-10 built... that thing rolled off the line in 1970.
 
isitsafenow
Posts: 3413
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:22 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:17 pm

OERK....The condition of the interior really does not mean how new the plane is as you have stated, and we know that also goes for "new" paint on the plane.
If you really want to know the age of any airliner, you need a source of manufacture date, perhaps a production book. Then have the registration number available you wish to seek in the book. Look up the number in the book and you will have the history of that plane.
In 1991 I was on UA N1802, since beer-canned...Check that manufacture date on that puppy!
safe
If two people agree on EVERYTHING, then one isn't necessary.
 
iowa744fan
Posts: 906
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2004 1:31 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:30 am

UA N1802, delivered to United on 29/07/71.
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 1:15 am

those very old DC-10s have the same engines as the very newest ones.
Their original engines might have used more gas but the aircraft have been constantly upgraded and are now probably quite different from when they left the assembly line.

Same with the 30 year old 747-200s KLM retired last year. Those had also been constantly upgraded with new engines and avionics.
I wish I were flying
 
oerk
Posts: 155
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 10:41 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:37 am

I was talking about uninformed perceptions of the average traveller.... that was all. On one of the flights I was talking to an American lady who mentioned it was a shame that Northwest had not put TV's in the back of the seats when they got the plane.

She had no idea this was a 1974 piece of construction and that she was probably giving birth to her now 30 year old daughter when this plane was clocking its first flying hours.
 
boeingpride800
Posts: 391
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:05 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:43 am

It just goes to show that the airlines that are still flying older airplanes have never had a problem with the older airplanes before, thats why airlines still fly them. And partly because they don't have the money to buy new aircraft or they don't have the aircraft to take over the flying route. EXAMPLES:


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © John Kelley


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Ken Cheung

This former NW 727 now fly's for TMA.


View Large View Medium
Click here for bigger photo!

Photo © Mark Kopczak

 
beechnut
Posts: 553
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2004 12:27 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:07 am

" None the less, age doesn't matter when it comes to aircraft.. Its all about the maintenance."

This is utter nonsense. Nothing is forever and increased age means increase aging aircraft checks, parts that on a newer aircraft would not have to be replaced, being replaced due to fatigue/corrosion, and at the end of the day, higher costs. It's not for nothing that aged aircraft are comparatively cheap on the market.

Another factor is that as an aircraft ages, it gains weight. Patches, repairs, modifications, etc. The weight creeps up. The result is felt on the bottom line: less useful load, higher fuel consumption, etc.

Air Canada looked into the possibility of rebuilding its DC-9s instead of going for A319s and concluded it was economically unfeasible.

And I speak from experience. I own a 25 year-old Beechcraft with over 10,000 hours on the airframe (high for a light aircraft). I bought it cheap, but in the knowledge that I would have to pour money into it over the long run.

For example, I have a minor corrosion problem with the aircraft floor that has to be fixed within a year or so if it's not to become a major problem. It's repairable though. It comes from people's wet shoes dripping onto the floor for 25 years.

Now, multiply the hours on my Beech by 80-100. Add the stress-strain of repeated cycles of takeoff, pressurization, and landing. Leaking lavs, fraying wires, and other issues. It should be obvious that age DOES matter, though I agree with fine maintenance, an elderly aircraft can be safe, but it won't be as cheap to maintain as a newer one. Up to the bean counters to determine if the cost of patching an older bird is more economical than leasing a new one. Different airlines have come to different conclusions with, for example, the DC-9 (AC and NW, and don't give me the "but AC is bankrupt so they're a bad example" crap, they're bankrupt under a mountain of debt from an unwise acquisition of Canadian).

Finally, even with the best of maintenance, tops and sides come do off aging aircraft (Aloha 737, United B747). No matter how consciencious the maintenance, the more problems there are, the more likely a crack here or a spot of corrosion there will be missed and result in an incident.

Used airliners are cheaper for a reason...

Mike
 
MHTMDW
Posts: 138
Joined: Fri Jul 09, 2004 10:17 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 11:42 am

Tops and sides don't come off of Douglas built planes
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:03 pm

This is utter nonsense. Nothing is forever and increased age means increase aging aircraft checks, parts that on a newer aircraft would not have to be replaced, being replaced due to fatigue/corrosion, and at the end of the day, higher costs. It's not for nothing that aged aircraft are comparatively cheap on the market.

So? That may make it more expensive to operate, it does NOT make it unsafe which is what the story is all about.

When and if NWA decides it's cheaper to dispose of them than to keep them flying they no doubt will, but that point hasn't been reached.

For some reason some people here seem to hold the fact that NWA doesn't replace their entire fleet every few years with the currently latest and greatest against them.
USAir did it, see where it got them.
So did United, see where it got them.

At the moment the DC-10s (and DC-9s) in NWA are cashcows. No interest payments, no lease payments, but they are providing income.
The higher maintenance cost compared with more modern aircraft will in time corrode that advantage at which point they'll start to be replaced with something new (the DC-10-40s are already going, being replaced with DC-10-30s which in turn are being replaced with A330s for example), the DC-9s will probably be next.
Do you blame NWA for not wanting to take out massive bankloans in the current economic climate and purchase several hundred new aircraft (with associated training, workshops, etc. etc.) all at once but introducing them at a slow deliberate pace?
I wish I were flying
 
greasespot
Posts: 2955
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2004 10:48 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:20 pm

Ummmm no they are not.....When it comes to engines the first one is pretty much the same as the last one off the line. There are service bulletins and A/D's incorporated but that is it. A 1989 engine will burn the same gas as a 1973 model. remember though that 1973 model is not really a 1973 model. Other than the outer case pretty much every part will have been changed out as the disks Time ex.

Greasespot
Sometimes all you can do is look them in the eye and ask " how much did your mom drink when she was pregnant with you?"
 
Spacepope
Posts: 3248
Joined: Tue Dec 28, 1999 11:10 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sat Jul 17, 2004 12:56 pm

I was searching through the FAA SDRs today for NW DC-10s, and their fleet is varied in hours. One airframe this year had 123,000 hours on it, others had as little as 30,000 hours.
The last of the famous international playboys
 
leelaw
Posts: 4520
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 4:13 pm

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sun Jul 18, 2004 3:30 am

NWA is arguably in the best health of all the legacies. The DC-10s will probably be gone before the DC-9s (given the arrival of the balance of A330s in the next couple of years). They're probably waiting to see if AirTran survives long-term to see if they can pickup 717s on the cheap before ordering new.  Big grin
Lex Ancilla Justitiae
 
cbphoto
Posts: 1120
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2003 6:23 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:15 am

Well..I just got back from a tour of the NWA maintaining hanger here in MSP, and interestingly enough, the manager of the maintaining program said that within 6-12 months all of the DC-10s will be replaced with A330s. Can any one confirm or deny this?????? I figured he was a credible source, but that just seems a little too close. Maybe he was mistaken. Anyway this is what he said, and I am just telling it too you!!
Peace
ETOPS: Engines Turning or Passengers Swimming
 
jcs17
Posts: 7376
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 11:13 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sun Jul 18, 2004 4:32 am

Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't these very old DC-10's gas guzzlers and thus hurting NW's bottom line?

Why would they keep the "newer" DC-10's in service then?


In the big picture, the fuel efficiency of an aircraft is a rather minor one--especially for NW. Sure, its more economic to fly more fuel efficient aircraft, but at the same time the initial investment on leasing new aircraft is a much bigger issue. NW doesn't have to worry about payments on the 10s and 9s, which almost eliminates the extra fuel efficiency expenditures. One of the reasons why NW is so close to turning profits is because they don't have to pay for a new fleet of aircraft.
America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:05 am

Actually..customers can't tell the age of an aircraft unless it is brand new and still smells it. I was sitting next to a lady on one of the oldest DC-9's and was like "this airplane is so nice and shiny..is it brand new?"

To the average person..an airplane is an airplane is an airplane..and what they see in the movies is what they believe. Remember most people think that we talk to "tower" the whole time, dont have a clue how we find our way around...and think that any airplane at anytime is ready to just give up flying and fall nose down out of the sky.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Cessna172RG
Posts: 642
Joined: Wed Aug 30, 2000 8:31 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:20 am

Not trying to detract from the Northwest topic, but while staying on the DC-10 topic...

JAL operates a fleet of DC-10-40s, and if memory serves, I believe that NWA and JAL went in together on that particular model, thus resulting in such late deliveries in the 80's.

JAL still operates a number of DC-10s...mostly to Hawaii and occasionally to the South Pacific and other points in Asia such as Bangkok, Guam, etc, and flies them on occasion on domestic routes. Every so often, I find a JAL DC-10 flying into Fukuoka from Tokyo on a domestic run, along with the daily DC-10 that flies to Hawaii (which can sometimes be a 747 in Reso'cha colors every once in a while).

And, if you can recall, JAL just dumped their MD-11s but are keeping the 10s!!! What does that have to say about them now? I guess that the DC-10 could be considered the better airframe, albeit its shaky beginnings.

Of course, I'm no aviation whiz when it comes to which plane is better, I'm just a lowly aviation management graduate with no place to go! LOL
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
 
N801NW
Posts: 558
Joined: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:56 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:23 am

On an IR conference call back in June, Doug Steenland mentioned the possibility of buying replacements for the retiring DC-10's and 742's. The key condition was that any purchase would have to be fully financed. Messrs. Andersen and Steenland recall not liking having to go to Boeing and asking them to cancel two 747's they had ordered but couldn't pay for.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: NW Airlines' DC-10...Not Very Old

Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:47 pm

Speakin of the -40's...none of those are left in the fleet. The 757-300's were the replacement for those. The -40 had a lower takeoff weight and shorter range than the -30, -30ER, and -30EER's...thus were mainly used for domestic operations. Also, the autothrottles could not be used during cruise flight...needless to say that would be quite the pain on a 9 hour flight to be constantly adjusting the thrust levers.

Chicks dig winglets.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos