Cessna172RG
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Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:34 am

I attempted a search with not much of a result...

And forgive me, before anyone says "read more topics and don't be so ignorant!" but...

Question Number One:

Is it true that Air Canada will be getting rid of all of its 747s?

Question Number Two:

What aircraft will serve the YVR-NRT route in the future? (Aside for the daily 767-300 that comes from Eastern Canada [forgot the city name] that stops in Vancouver, only to continue to Tokyo)

Question Number Three:

What will replace these birds? I've heard rumors of DC-10s covering their Combi cargo capacity, however, what about the passenger loads? Is Air Canada yielding lower loads, thus not requiring the 747 any longer?

That's about it from me for now. Thanks in advance...
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:00 pm

Presently there are only 3 B747-400Cs in the fleet. The 4 full passenger B747-400s have been returned to the lessors.

The only routes presently flown by the B747-400Cs are YYZ-LHR-YYZ AC 866/AC857. And twice a day YYZ-AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-YYZ AC872/AC873 and AC876/AC877.

The last LHR flights will be on September 5 outbound, September 6 inbound.

Frankfurt will continue into the fall, with AC878/AC877 switching to a B767-300 and the last flight scheduled so far, will be AC872/AC873 on October 30/31.

These flights will be replaced by A330-300 to AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, and a combination of A330s and B767s, up to 5 times a day, YYZ-LHR. It was a decision of fleet rationale, that these aircraft will be eventually replaced by more A340s.

The freight uplift has been contracted out to a third party, All Canada Express. One of their considerations is the DC-10F.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Sun Jul 18, 2004 12:04 pm

Sorry, the answer to your other question is that both YYZ-NRT-YYZ and YVR-NRT-YVR are being flown using A340-300 equipment.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
captaingomes
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:36 pm

Just ignore the snobs! LongHauler, as always, provided excellent information which is very much appreciated.
"it's kind of like an Airbus, it's an engineering marvel, but there's no sense of passion" -- J. Clarkson re: Coxster
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:41 pm

There was a plan for 2 of the 7 weekly YVR-NRT flights to be 333 equipment this summer. Not sure if this happened.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Superfly
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:26 pm

Who will get these AC 747s after?
Bring back the Concorde
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:48 pm

Who will get these AC 747s after?

No airline identified yet. Likely none soon. These 3 will be hard to place as PW combi's with addl mods dictated by Transport Canada.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Horus
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:24 am

Wouldn't ordering further A346s make more sence in the long run?
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:58 am

Air Canada presently holds orders/options on A340-500s and A340-600s. Whether we actually see them is up for speculation. It would make sense to me ... but no one in Management asked me!  Smile

On another note with regard to speculation. I entered pilot Briefing last week, and on a notice board was a HUGE picture of an Air Canada Boeing 7E7. Of course, computer generated, but it was a Boeing picture, so I guess the big boys in Seattle are making a pitch to the big boys in Montreal!

When I queried a supervisor, his only response was that this is an Airbus airline, and as we can only dream, they don't call it a DreamLiner for nothing! Oh well ...
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:08 am

Well, the 332 makes much more sense to AC than the 7E7 since they already have the 333/345.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
ba97
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 11:04 am

I thought I heard that the 747s were not just re-enforced for cargo but had modifications for military lift under an agreement with the Government of Canada. Something I guess about conversion from passenger to troop and equipment. It is all this that makes the planes overly heavy or costly to operate and thus not attractive due to the glut of old planes out there. Does this ring right?
there is economy class, business class, first class...then Concorde..pure class
 
CPDC10-30
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:26 pm

but had modifications for military lift under an agreement with the Government of Canada

I wish this was true but it is the first I have ever heard of it. The CF have had to use foreign contractors several times for airlift - haven't heard of them using AC.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:44 pm

Whatever the mods, 3 early model PW -400 combis will be hard to place.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:05 pm

3 early model PW -400 combis will be hard to place

Don't be so sure. The SCD mods makes them easier converts to all-cargo than a base model, so there is definitely a market for them.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
donder10
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:16 pm

Don't be so sure. The SCD mods makes them easier converts to all-cargo than a base model, so there is definitely a market for them.


Interesting.At the rate it's growing a certain turquoise airline in Asia might end up with them.
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Mon Jul 19, 2004 10:47 pm

The SCD mods makes them easier converts to all-cargo than a base model

That's true of course.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Olympus69
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:46 am

I think 2 of the 3 744Ms are leased from GECAS. Is that right?
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:11 am

I think 2 of the 3 744Ms are leased from GECAS. Is that right?

Correct. According to JP, tails 341 & 343 are leased. 342 appears to be owned.


I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
na
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:36 pm

What is the current state of the 4 ex-Canadian GE-powered 744s taken out of service last year?
One went to Philippines, one is flying for Aerolineas Argentinas, and that carrier wants more 744s. The other 2 seem to be jobless at the moment.
 
bmacleod
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:58 pm

but had modifications for military lift under an agreement with the Government of Canada.

Can't these modifications be undone to allow the AC 744M to become more marketable?
The engine is the heart of an airplane, but the pilot is its soul.
 
pilatusguy
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:25 pm

Talking about AC's fleet:

Are there any plans at AC to get rid of the 767 for the longhaul routes? AC currently serves ZRH with the 767 which - amongst many of my business colleagues - is a reason for not taking the direct flight to YYZ but rather connect through AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA on the new LH346...

sorry if slightly off topic  Smile
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Tue Jul 20, 2004 11:49 pm

Air Canada's B744C's have a very unusual history ...

They were originally ordered to fly on the then new Toronto/Vancouver-London-Delhi-Singapore route. The L1011-500s currently flying the route did not have sufficient freight capacity, and nothing else in the fleet had the range in extreme weather/temperature conditions.

While Air Canada and Boeing were finalizing the new aircraft, South African Airways lost an aircraft over the Indian Ocean. It was suspected, then later confirmed that an uncontrollable fire in the main deck cargo hold of the B747 Combi was the cause. One of the most effective ways to fight a fire of this sort is to starve it of oxygen, then blow a fire retardant gas into the area. This is how a fire in a lower hold would be fought, it is very effective. As you can imagine, this is not possible in a main deck hold where the air conditioning/pressurization is shared with passengers.

As a result of this accident, Transport Canada was drawing up legislation not allowing main deck cargo/passenger aircraft where this type of fire can not be fought. ie, any Combi aircraft.

Boeing and Air Canada therefore devised an aircraft with a fixed wall between the main deck cargo and passengers. This wall is a part of the airframe, is fire/heat/gas proof. Also the fire detection and suppression equipment and methods of the lower hold is now possible as this main deck hold now had its own controllable methods of air conditioning and pressurization. This was all very heavy, very inefficient and unique to those 3 aircraft ....but safe!

While all this was happening, and in response to the proposed "anti-Combi" legislation, Canadi>n Airlines announced it would suspend all Arctic flying with its Combi B737s. They decided that all passenger or all cargo aircraft would not be viable. First Air also queried how this vital link could be maintained without its own B727-100 combis.

Transport Canada then had to back down, as the government of Canada was not willing to subsidize the Arctic flying and the locals required it. Also, it was pointed out, that no other country's aviation authority was going to outlaw combi's! Instead, far stricter handling methods have been devised for carrying "Dangerous Goods".

But it was too late for Air Canada's B744 Combis. They had already passed a point in construction that could not reverse these unusual characteristics. While some unnecessary equipment was removed, the fixed, thick, heavy wall could not be removed. And if I understand correctly, this mod can not be reversed without a lot of expensive construction.

So, these orphans have remained in the fleet this long. I think if they had been able to sell then easily earlier, then they would have. As I am sure most are aware, the YYZ/YVR-LHR-DEL-SIN route has long been abandoned.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:33 am

Thanks for the detailed explanation Longhauler! Could their unique construction inhibit (or prevent) their conversion to F (ie, full freighter) configuration?

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
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longhauler
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Wed Jul 21, 2004 12:40 am

If I understand our engineering people correctly, the wall separating the passengers and cargo can not be removed without a very heavy construction process done at Seattle. The gentleman I was talking to, likened it to KLMs conversion of its B747-200s to B747-200SUDs. Expensive, and very involved, but you'd have to be pretty sure you want the construction done!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:16 am

Sounds like an F conversion for these 3 oddballs would not be an option.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
B747-437B
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:26 am

Nothing stops you from using it as a freighter with a seperated bulkhead compartment though. You simply increase the size of the access doors between the rear compartment and the main cabin, deactivate the firefighting systems and voila - you can get pallets and ULDs in. Granted its not optimal, but still cheaper than doing the SCD mod (which is also a major structural change) to a base airframe. I maintain that at the right price, you can place these as freighters.
"The A340-300 may boast a long range, but the A340 is underpowered" -- Robert Milton, CEO - Air Canada
 
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yyz717
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RE: Air Canada 747 Fleet Retirement?

Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:33 am

True Sean, but you would still end up with 3 oddball freighters with unique loading issues, weight & balance issues (perhaps), reduced volume/mass flexibility, and a continuing weight penalty.

This will likely greatly reduce the marketability of these 3 beasts.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.