airmale
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JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:30 pm

Why arent the two expanding? compare Korean Air's passenger and Cargo routes, I would have imagines Japanese carriers flying to half the world. Even JAL Cargo are not growing.
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AMS
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Sun Jul 18, 2004 7:45 pm

I can confirm that ANA and JAL hate each other very much. ANA Has been trying hard to beat JAL, regarding passengers service etc.

Even people within those companies are unwilling to even speak with someone from the other company.

I do agree with you; that working together may benefit both companies, but at the moment there is too much distance.



Regards,
AMS
 
Horus
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Sun Jul 18, 2004 10:29 pm

Will ANA ever expand in Europe? Surely the 7E7s might make it possible to operate on thinner routes.
EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
AMS
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:35 pm

Horus,

ANA is looking at the moment for an other European City, which includes Brussels. However nothing defined yet.


Regards,
AMS
 
Horus
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:39 pm

What about the Middle East? Maybe not right now, but DXB, DOH, KWI, JED, CAI or even BEY would be a nice addition to either Japanese carrier's network. I know, I know I can continue to dream... Big grin

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
AMS
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:43 pm

Horus,

There needs to be a solid Japanese market in able for NH to fly to a middle-east destination. Also at the moment NH routes their middle east customers via Bangkok, Thailand.



Regards,
AMS

 
keno
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:54 pm

Few weeks ago there was a thread (or was it a post?) about ANA planning to start NRT(or KIX?)-MAN-DUB. Not sure how valid this news is.
 
Horus
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:16 am

AMS, the problem is that if they keep on waiting, the market is gonna get saturated by Middle Eastern carriers. Currently the following fly to Japan:

Egyptair: serve Tokyo 3x weekly A340 and Osaka 2x weekly B777(increases to 3 in October)
Emirates: serve Osaka 5x weekly A345
Iran Air: serve Tokyo 2x weekly B747SP

It's only a matter of time before GF, EY and QR start services to Japan from their respective hubs.

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
AMS
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:25 am

At the moment EK and MS are offering direct service to/from Japan.
I always wondered why EK choose to fly to KIX, although KIX is a nicer airport, and EK also has a codeshare agreement with JL for the other Japanese cities.

If there will be more competition between the Middle-east and Japan, then surely some airlines will suffer.



Regards,

MS / EHAM), Netherlands">AMS

 
Carfield
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:46 am

I guess the limited slots at NRT limit the expansion of these Japanese airlines. With the recent economic depression in Japan, both Japanese airlines are more careful in their destination choices. Indeed, JL has reduced its network. NH is only given the rights for international flights since 80s, and the NRT slots limit their expansions. KIX only proves to be an expensive airport. However, when the new Nagoya/central Japan airport open, there will be another wave of expansions. However, I don't see them adding many new destinations except Chinese and some Asian cities.

I personally find JL service to be in the decline, but NH is getting better each day. Its premium service surpasses JL... just my opinion.

That is just my humble opinion.

Carfield
 
Horus
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:49 am

The problem is that EK were not able to get the required slots at Narita, so they decided to go to Osaka first, until they can sort out the NRT problem.

If there will be more competition between the Middle-east and Japan, then surely some airlines will suffer.

At the moment it's still a new and expanding market, but it definitely has potential. Last year a large number of Arab tourist visited Japan and South-East Asia, shunning Europe and America becuase of what is percieved as an increasing hatred towards Arabs/Muslims.

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
Eirules
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 12:56 am

I agree KEno, I heard a rumour going around of a NRT-MAN-DUB route but I heard that it would be with JAL not ANA. JAL already codeshare with BA so perhaps this would make more sense, maybe even codeshare with EI?
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JoFMO
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:00 am

What makes NRT so crowded.

they have two runways which could be used simultaneously, although one is still to short fir long range take-offs.
there are virtually now domestic routes from NRT, so everything is widebody.

All in all NRT is in the 30million passenger league. Other Airports with a similar layout handle much more passengers.

So I hardly cant understand why NRT is so short of slots.

Clarifications welcomed.
 
JALSVO
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 2:16 am

JAL has announced new routes from new Nagoya airport, Centrair, when it is open in February, 2005. Those are daily Nagoya - Paris and Nagoya - Guangzhou three times a week. Frequences to other destinations (Asia) will be increased.
But I think for JAL it is rather difficult to venture out into the new markets being in a bad financial situation for a while now.
 
spacecadet
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:57 am

All in all NRT is in the 30million passenger league. Other Airports with a similar layout handle much more passengers.

So I hardly cant understand why NRT is so short of slots.


Ever been there? Two terminals (plus a satellite terminal accessible by tram), not enough gates. It's really a terrible airport, if you ask me.

The problem is not the runways. The problem is a lot of international flights sitting at gates or on the tarmac for long periods of time (meaning more than a few hours), hence the slot limitations.

Also, because it handles mostly heavies, the gates have to be larger, meaning fewer of them in the same area as comparably sized airports.

NRT really needs another terminal, but I don't know if there are any plans for this.
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Aaron747
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:11 am

Good luck getting any NRT expansions past the surrounding NIMBYs - the limited capacity of the second runway is debilitating.
If you need someone to blame / throw a rock in the air / you'll hit someone guilty
 
JoFMO
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:13 am

Yeah, been there last summer. Arrival at 8:30 terminal 2. Widebodies from every European major at that time. But I felt no crowd! Arriving in LAX was worst!

So why don't they simply build new gates? It shouldn't be that complicated like building a runway.
 
TokyoNarita
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 6:59 am

Why arent the two expanding?

They are.

In the past couple of years JAL and ANA have expanded in Asia, specifically in China. What about Vietnam for JAL? Ho Chi Minh and Hanoi?

TokyoNarita

[Edited 2004-07-19 00:00:24]
 
spacecadet
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 7:26 am

Yeah, been there last summer. Arrival at 8:30 terminal 2. Widebodies from every European major at that time. But I felt no crowd!

You got lucky. I have never waited less than one hour and thirty minutes to get through customs on the way in, and never less than one hour and thirty minutes to get to the gate on departure. I have never seen lines that long at any other airport, anywhere in the world.

I have also rarely taken less than 20-30 minutes just to get from the plane to customs. I must be extraordinarily unlucky in my gate assignments - the ANA flights between NRT-JFK seem to park on the tarmac an inordinate amount of the time for what you'd think would be one of their "prestige" routes.
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airmale
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:48 pm

AMS ANA served Brussels before as well.

TokyoNarita expansion to other parts of the world like Central Asia, Middle East, Eastern Europe, Africa and Latin America, not regional destinations.

JAL code share with Emirates to Dubai at present.
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airmale
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 5:36 pm

Horus JAL served Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Jeddah, Cairo and another Saudi destination during the 80's, and Beirut in the 70's.
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donder10
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:11 pm

Considering the Japanese economy has been pretty stagnant for the last 8 years+ it's hardly surprising JAL and ANA haven't been expanding at breakneck speed.However,'mainland Asia' is the hotest region on earth so some growth will occur.


compare Korean Air's passenger and Cargo routes, I would have imagines Japanese carriers flying to half the world

South Korea's trade with China is growing at an astonishing rate right now so I can imagine KE's freighters into the middle kingdom are doing very well.Haven't they just started a new route like Chendu?
 
FinnWings
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:44 pm

I have been always wondering the lack of ANA or JAL on Scandinavian market... There is HUGE demand between Japan and Scandinavia as many Japanese tourists are willing to see the midnight sun in the summer and the northern lights in winter. And I'm not speaking any normal charter tourists now... usually these japanese tourists are on very expensive Europe tours flying very often in business class. There is also a lot of other passengers on these routes, considering the fact that especially Finland (Nokia) and Sweden (Ericsson) have a lot of high tech industry like Japan as well. So this is VERY high yield market indeed...

Finnair flies currently 5 x week to KIX and 2 x week to NRT. Both services are very successfull and I believe SK is doing very well from CPH to Japan as well. Even AY has daily flights from HEL to Japan this market is underserved. AY desperately tried to get more slots for NRT many years without success, therfore they introduced KIX service recently.

Scandinavia would be wise choice due the geographical point of view as well. Currently all JAL and ANA flights to Europe goes over Finland, Sweden and Denmark. Helsinki has also one of the lowest landing fees in Europe...

Best Regards,
FinnWings
 
airmale
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:58 pm

OK what about JL Cargo, I would think they would find new markets in Europe and the Middle East.
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MAH4546
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:53 pm

ANA's 7E7 order presents an excellent oppurtunity to open up thinner markets that can fill a flight to Tokyo...Boston, Denver, Miami, Brussels, Madrid, Dusseldorf...it will be very intersting to see what happens.
a.
 
Cessna172RG
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:41 am

Regarding "NIMBY's" in Japan...

Sure people may not like having an airport in their backyard, but the Japanese Construction Ministry and other departments sure find a way to spend their money to build a new airport or add this or that somewhere...

Did you know that even though Japan has the landmass size of California, that 70% of it is uninhabitable mountainous regions, and that the rest is paved over with more concrete than in all of the lower 48 states?

Read this book... "Dogs and Demons: The Fall of Modern Japan" and you'll soon see why. I'm here in the middle of it, I'm surrounded by concrete. I'm surrounded by overpriced domestic airline tickets. I'm surrounded by "safe" JTB travel packages that send Japanese people overseas on tours of other countries that are conducted in Japanese, for Japanese, to limit their exposure to foreigners.

I could go on about this for weeks.

Oh wait, back to the topic at hand.

Why do you think that JAL and ANA are stagnant? Just like anything else in Japanese society, once they find a method that works, no matter how OLD it is, they'll keep it in place until it falls apart. If it suits them to charge a $200 USD one way fare from Haneda to Fukuoka, and yet it costs less money to fly roundtrip from Narita to Guam than it does domestically...they'll keep doing it, and God only knows why...

When it comes to airfares, and when it comes to figuring them out, stay out of Japan and keep worrying why it costs more to fly Southwest on a last minute bargain than it does to fly the Concorde to LHR.
Save the whales...for dinner!!!
 
JoFMO
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:05 am

But aren't the high prices for domestic flying in Japan because of the overvalued yen?

everything is unbelievable expensive there!

I remember as I was there in 2002 I got only half the goods for my money than I can get for my euro here.
 
AMS
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:17 am

But aren't the high prices for domestic flying in Japan because of the overvalued yen?

everything is unbelievable expensive there!




Well Japan used to have very expensive domestic airfares, however in the last
couple of years you can get some good deals on domestic Tickets in Japan.
off course Japan remains expensive,


Regards,
AMS

 
airmale
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:58 am

Yes they seem to be stuck in the "Hub" system theory of yore, wonder why they got the 767ERs for during the 80's the aircraft were never used beyond regional Asia/Pacific destinations.
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Horus
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:06 am

Horus JAL served Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Jeddah, Cairo and another Saudi destination during the 80's, and Beirut in the 70's.

Airmale, do you know any info on these flights (e.g routing, freqency, aircraft type)?

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
airmale
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Wed Jul 21, 2004 6:26 pm

The routing was a milk run Tokyo-Bangkok-Karachi-Abu Dhabi-Kuwait-Jeddah-Cairo-Athens using a DC10-40 and it operated once a week right up till early 1990, I think it ended either with the Summer schedule or the Gulf war.

The other Saudi route was Riyadh I dont know the routing or aircraft for that nor for Beirut.
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sleak76
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:41 pm

Airmale

I could just see the number of frequent flier miles one would get on that routing if he were to leave Tokyo and intending to make ATH his destination. Big grin

And I think they dropped Kuwait in the 80's.. late eighties. I dont think JAL lasted here by 1990 (Gulf war).
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airmale
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RE: JAL And ANA Stagnant Network

Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:24 pm

All of these i.e Karachi, Abu Dhabi, Kuwait, Jeddah, Cairo and Athens were dropped together around winter 1989/90.
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