greatansett
Posts: 485
Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:38 pm

7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:43 am

Will Airbus have an answer to the 7E7 when it is produced. Will it be a new A332 or A333? Has any carriers approached Airbus about this new aircraft?

If anyone starts an Airbus vs Boeing thread they can go to hell.
Ron Paul 2012
 
aamd11
Posts: 863
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:54 am

RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:51 am

with airbus a bit tied up with A318 and A380 related projects right now, I'd be highly suprised if they could pull off an entirely new 7E7 competitor in time for the 7E7s second year in service.

I'm sure a lot of Anti-airbus 'subsidies' people would also be very suspicious of their ability to pull of one huge task followed by another large task within a couple of years.

I'd put my money on the A330 going for a little longer, maybe with some basic improvements.
 
whitehatter
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RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:03 am

Airbus could do a NG job on the A330 in the short term, fitting newer and more efficient engines plus lightening the aircraft with use of composites and other methods derived from the A380 program.

Possible engine candidates could be the Trent 900 and GP7200 developed for the A380, or the lower thrust GE90 variants used on A market 777s. All could be engineered to suit the A330NG.

Longer term, a replacement for the widebody A market and B/C markets would be needed as the A330 will only have a finite production life before it becomes an outdated design with no worthwhile order book. That would be a clean sheet design, as that's what the market would dictate.
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keesje
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RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:14 am

I think the 7e7-8 will become a good competitor for the A330-200, which is the star in this segment now and for at least another 5 yrs..

The 7e7-3 is in class of its own I think, not a 330 competitor.

The 7e7-9 appears to be pushed behind 2012.

I think (and have posted several mails on it : http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/1638197/6/
some state of the art improvements can/will be implemeted on the a330 types.

An A330-300/400ER being a possible first competing directly with the 777-200ER.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
ba319-131
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RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:27 am

I read a very interesting article today,not sure what paper as I read quite a few!

It would appear that Boeing,whilst claiming a 20% lower fuel burn per passenger for the 7E7,are not comparing the aircraft on a like for like basis with the A332,mainly due to the higher passenger load(on the 332) vs the entry model 7E7.The article goes on to say, if you matched the seating like for like, then the fuel burn improvement(over the 332) drops to between a 2 & 5%,not the 20% Boeing are claiming.

Now i'm taking the whole thing with a pinch of salt,hell,the thing has yet to fly and GE & RR have yet to produce the engines which are supposed to save the claimed 20%.

Sound like the whole A380 being massively overweight,something we have yet to see in concrete,yes we have rumors but we always have rumors slagging off Airbus planes as being overweight or inferior etc etc.
111,732,3,4,5,7,8,BBJ,741,742,743,744,752,762,763,764,772,77L,773,77W,L15,D10,30,40,AB3,AB6,A312.313,319,320,321,332,333
 
gkirk
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RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:29 am

Well, Boeing will have to hope that the 7E7 will be able to challenge the 330-200 for performance first. It's all good saying things, but everyone will need to wait and see what the 7E7 can actually do first. Perhaps the 7E7 will be nowhere near as good as the 330, but perhaps it will be much better.
Wait and see...should be interesting never the less  Smile
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greatansett
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Joined: Thu Aug 28, 2003 5:38 pm

RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:12 am

How much does a 7E7 cost in price compared to the A332 or 3?
Ron Paul 2012
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:18 am

Now i'm taking the whole thing with a pinch of salt,hell,the thing has yet to fly and GE & RR have yet to produce the engines which are supposed to save the claimed 20%.

The engines are only suppose to deliver ~5% of the fuel savings, the rest comes from superior aerodynamics and the fact that the 7E7 will weigh tons less than existing aircraft.

It would appear that Boeing,whilst claiming a 20% lower fuel burn per passenger for the 7E7,are not comparing the aircraft on a like for like basis with the A332,mainly due to the higher passenger load(on the 332) vs the entry model 7E7

Boeing's comparison of fuel burn is stated as "20% lower than any aircraft in its class." For the 7E7-8 this means 20% lower than the 767-300ER and for the 7E7-9 this means 20% lower than the A330-200 and 767-400ER. Boeing is sizing the 7E7 to both replace existing 767s and provide an alternative to the A332.

Also, given the huge payload advantage of the 7E8 relative to the A332, a 7E8 in high density configuration would blow the A332 away.

The 7e7-9 appears to be pushed behind 2012.

Part of the problem is the fact that airlines want the 7E7-8 yesterday, and the earliest the production slots open up for the -9 is 2010-2012. If demand for the -3 vanished and -9 demand soared, Boeing would do what the customers want, and change their EOS, but for now demand for the -9 does not justify off-setting production of other variants.
 
keesje
Posts: 8590
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:32 am

if there was strong demand for the 7e7-9 it would be build earlier then 2012
Agreed

"20% lower than any aircraft in its class."
Sure they said "any" ?


"Also, given the huge payload advantage of the 7E8 relative to the A332, a 7E8 in high density configuration would blow the A332 away."
Please enlighten me : the 7e7 carries less passengers and as much cargo as the 332 ?
The extra range is for city pairs further apart then say AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-LAX and less then 230 passengers ? Huge market probably..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:40 am

"20% lower than any aircraft in its class."
Sure they said "any" ?


Yes, and I quoute- "In addition to bringing big-jet ranges to mid-size airplanes, the 7E7 will provide airlines with unmatched fuel efficiency, resulting in exceptional environmental performance. The airplane will use 20 percent less fuel for comparable missions than any other wide-body airplane."

Please enlighten me : the 7e7 carries less passengers and as much cargo as the 332 ?

Yes

The extra range is for city pairs further apart then say AB) (AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA-LAX and less then 230 passengers ? Huge market probably..

Opening city pairs was a reason for the range increase, but Boeing stated that the added range also translates to greater payload on shorter routes. An airline like EK could fit a 7E7-8 in a high density layout, 30 J-class sleepers, and 250 Y-class (3+3+3) with 50" inches pitch in J class and 33-34" pitch in Y class. The extra payload would degrade the range to around 6,500nm. With more seats and lower trip costs, the 7E7 would be much more economical than a comproable A332.
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: 7E7-A332 Answers

Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:46 am

Airbus will not answer 7E7 immediately. I think what's going to happen is that Airbus will pull it's own version of the 777 trick Boeing did in late eighties - they will wait and see if 7E7 delivers what it's designers promised to deliver, and then come up with an aircraft that will have better performance. To beat 7E7, Airbus will have to come up with a brand new clean-sheet design, that will take at least a few years to complete. I'd say that we should see Airbus announcing it's competitor around 2007 - 2008, with possible launch around 2010 and first flight around 2013 or so.

All of the above is pure speculation - if Airbus plays their cards smart, we might see 50/50 market share split in 200-250 seat category. If they count on beating 7E7 with A330-200Lite, then they are screwed.
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