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Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:16 pm

Qantas International cabin crew have said that they will strike during the busy travel period in December unless the airline backs down on expanding its overseas-based workforce. Last month Qantas announced it would establish a London base for 400 international flight attendants from June 2005. The strike will start on December 17. It is not knowen yet how long the strike will last for.

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ZKSUJ
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:16 pm

Ooooooh, sounds bad. I get the idea of an overseas work force, but why not just employ aussies and have all crews based in Oz? After all it is an Aussie airline. Do NZ still have London based crews?
 
anstar
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Wed Jul 21, 2004 9:23 pm

NZ still have UK based crews. They now actually hire them from the UK.

BA have SYD based crews also...
 
FLYACYYZ
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:45 am

Believe the NZ London based crews only fly LON-LAX-LON.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
Above and Beyond
 
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yyz717
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:19 am

QF cabin staff should perhaps take a look at how far union militancy got the AN cabin staff -- it was a key factor in driving AN into liquidation.

Any strike by QF will only hurt QF unions. With Virgin Blue and EK (among others) providing expanding service to/within Aus, QF is not necessarily needed by the Aussie travelling public.

I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:35 am

I heard through the rumor mill that even the QF pilots are opposed to the LHR base.

I do not understand why QF would love to open a base in LHR that would stop crew from flying there. This would have a big impact on cabin crew wages.
Not only that, but why not have 2-3 LHR based crew on every flight, as is currently done with AKL and BKK based crew? Instead of asking crew for feedback as to what would be a great way to incorporate a new base, they have jumped head first into a collision course with crew that are essential to them running a successful operation.
Low crew morale = negative performance on board.
I am not saying that the company should bend over for crew, but all they are asking is for a little give and take.
Crew have so far supported:
The opening of an AKL base
The opening of a BKK base
Crew reduction
Leave without pay
Redundancies

What more does the cashed up Roo want??

100% support for my friends at QF !!


 
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yyz717
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:39 am

Crew have so far supported:
The opening of an AKL base
The opening of a BKK base
Crew reduction
Leave without pay
Redundancies

What more does the cashed up Roo want??


If QF costs remain higher than Virgin Blue & EK, then more QF FA sacrifices are needed. It's that simple.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:32 am

Here is a simple idea: Why don't the exec's take a mere 2% wage cut and I am sure that the amount of $$ saved will out number any amount that QF thinks it may save by opening a LHR base!
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:37 pm

Sure, give the execs a pay cut, they've been doing a bad job and are overpaid, aren't they?

Qantas will save up to $20 million annually by having a London base. The savings come about from Hotel costs, allowances, and all those kinds of things. This is an operational saving for a company that is looking to save as much money as it can by being efficient in order to be able to compete in the long term with other carriers.

From what I have heard, the offer is for all existing staff to apply to move to London on a 3 year contract, and then go back to being based where they are at present if they wish to go back, or stay on in London.

What is the problem? It's 400 out of thousands of cabin crew and has a tangible saving for the airline. It's not like people are being sacked, or they're opening the base and just hiring 400 new people from the UK.

Can someone explain the "big impact on crew wages" please?

Trent.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
Ken777
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:52 pm

QF have cut a lot out of their domestic business, moving it to their LCCs. Now they are trying to take more away on the international side. At some point the powers that be at QF are going to find that they have cut the heart out of the company, leaving it open to a lot of competition. I have no sympathy for QF if there is a strike - just hope that BA can come in and take care of the passengers.

Cutting management salaries 2% sounds like a pretty good idea to me. I fly more miles a year on QF than AA and find that most employees working the planes are pretty good, but every time I have had a reason to have a contact with a (mid level) "manager" I have found them to be village idiots who could not add to the company's profits or customer loyalty if their company car depended on it. QF could probably cut out half of them and not miss a beat.

And no, I am not a union member - just a guy who owns his own little one man business. I'm just the type that believes in taking care of the employees who take care of the customers.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:08 pm

Classiclover:

With the reduction of crew on all aircraft QF have saved a whole lot more than the projected 20 million that they intend to save by opening this new base.
If the LHR base was to go ahead, then think about all the overtime that people will loose out on.Or the time that they spend at home after a long journey like a LHR trip. I think that the crew have done their part of cost cutting. They are competing with the likes of SQ,CX,MH,TG etc etc all who have more crew on board. Yet QF still ranks high! Why, because of who??? CREW!
QF have gone about it the smart way, sure they claim that "no employee will loose their job as a result" but how about the effects this base will have on IT'S employees. Oh I forgot they really don't give a toot!
And as for "it's not like they are hiring 400 UK nationals" Well, from what I hear, the pay that has been offered to the SYD based crew to relocate is appalling. Not only that, they will hardly have any days off (as is the current trend with BKK and AKL crew).But of course, the crying Kangaroo will say "but we offered it to you! And you did not take it. So let us therefore hire 400 CONTRACT, CHEAP LABOUR, crew with dismal conditions!!

 
trijetfan1
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:11 pm

Is there any Qantas based American crews?
Earned PPL June 26, 2007
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:36 pm

TBCITDG - very interesting  Smile

It'll be interesting to see what happens, because I also heard that Qantas are "prepared for any strike action that may happen". Personally I don't see how they'll keep flights in the air.

Time will tell  Smile

Trent.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
krisworldB777
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:31 pm

Yet again Australians get a privileged insight into what can only be described as the sheer ignorance and stupidity of the Australian unions, particularly at Qantas. Time and time again Qantas’ unions have proved that they have little grasp of a globalised marketplace and more latterly the dire state of affairs in the aviation industry that can only be described as frighteningly tumultuous.

As those with half a brain have stated, for Qantas to remain competitive in the marketplace they must, repeat must, reduce their cost base so as to ensure sustainability, particularly with competition from airlines like Singapore Airlines and Emirates which are, at this point in time at least, substantially more efficient than Qantas.

As has been expressed recently in the media, the Singapore Government has publicly stated that for SIA to remain competitive, they must slash approximately $1-billion worth of their fixed costs, particularly in the uncertain climate which currently prevails. Given that SIA’s staff expenditure is substantially lower than Qantas’ at 17.4% and 27.9% respectively, it certainly highlights that Qantas has much work to do and that ignoring such threats would, quite frankly, be a gross demonstration of unmitigated mismanagement that would lead to Qantas being unable to compete at home with Virgin Blue or with other airlines abroad.

It is also important to compare the base salaries of airline cabin crew. Qantas cabin crew are earning substantially superior base salaries to junior crew at British Airways ($23,000) and Emirates ($27,000). For London-based crew, Qantas is offering a base salary of $31,500 accompanied by allowances, sector pay and an annualised lump sum, a package works out to around $62,000 compared with the current salaries which average between $37,000 and $47,000 offered in Australia.

It is also worth noting that Qantas is OFFERING two year contracts to its current Australia-based crew, not simply employing British staff in order to snub Australian counterparts.

Striking at the busy Christmas period only demonstrates what a pack of half wits the Qantas unionists are and that they don’t understand the true nature of the contracts being offered nor what damage it would do to the company. If they want to be making commercial decisions then they should be occupying a role in senior management. Quite frankly, and as has been shown so blatantly, most lack the basic intelligence and commonsense to do so. Given that they are apparently unable to comprehend what is quite a basic concept, I hate to think what would happen to our iconic kangaroo if they were in charge. Undoubtedly it would be akin to our friends at Ansett. Perhaps we need a repeat of the 1989 fiasco which will teach them a lesson.
 
ZKSUJ
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:49 pm

Yeah, the NZ LHR based crews only fly to LAX andf back.
 
nickofatlanta
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:39 pm

An argument could also be made that since QF is opening new fifth freedom routes out of LHR, it is only fair that some of the FAs be based in the UK. HKG is a new LHR route starting soon as are more SIN flights and Shanghai is also on the radar screen.

Additionally, many major international airlines have bases overseas. For example, UA has bases in LHR, NRT and other international locations. Global airlines that have international transit hubs like UA (NRT), NW (NRT) and QF (SIN) really need to have FA bases abroad.
 
anstar
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:45 pm

Perhaps if the unions were more flexible we would see QF operate a real hub at SIN with more EU flights. unitl overseas employment restrictions are changed we wont see that.
 
aussie747
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:18 pm

My sentiments exactly KrisworldB777, It is simply that kind of attitude in the western world and arrogance of unions that only serve to put Australian workers as being 'inflexbible and lazy'.

The civil aviation industry in Australia along with the public service are the last bastions of this archaic dinosaur working regimes left. The sooner this rot is broken the better.

Down time in strikes in Australia throughout the years has cost this country billions of dollars.

The mere threat of a strike over this time to Qantas will only serve to hinder the airlines reputaion and ultimately the percetion of the flying public. This vicious circle is only going to place their own jobs at risk down the line, and with "21 other competing fish in the sea" on the kangaroo route the is plenty of other alternatives to get to the UK.

Loyalty to Qantas will only go so far and blind freddy can see that. Qantas share of international traffic has plumetted from 46% in the mid 1990's now to only 31.4%.

I only leave this with one question. I wonder why??

N.B. Qantas workers and unions just take a good long hard look at yourselves. The rest of the world is adaptable to all changes, just grow up and accept it.





 
AJ
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:39 pm

"N.B. Qantas workers and unions just take a good long hard look at yourselves. The rest of the world is adaptable to all changes, just grow up and accept it."

This is one union involved in this situation, don't lump all Qantas unions into it. It is the FAAA's battle.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 9:47 pm

Hey Guys,
As A flight Attendant based in AKL for Qantas i shall state my comments...

I do think Aussie crews are being abit uneasy about this whole 'moving off shore bases!!
AKL now has around 380 crew, and is continuing to grow.
We start off on significantly lower pay, no staff travel benefits (Though currently getting worked on), and have alot shorter slip ports than our other workers- yet we do the same thing!
My point is, is that QF unions have taken this too far. We do the same job as them, and we still love it- yet We dont complain!!!
Yes agreed, 400 positions off-shore is alot, but what you guys might not realise is that they will be Australian Crews, not English! They enter in on their same seneority, are employed directly thru QANTAS, and get the exact same benefits as Qantas crew in Aussie get...
All QF are trying to do is create a sense of well being for the future- so if anything goes wrong they donot need to make redundent AUSTRALIAN crews- Addecco crews in NZ and Thailand will not be made redundant as we are saving the company money - the same can be said for MAM casuals who are based in short haul in Aussie and some on International!!!

On another note, alot of crews are not going to strike- as they actually lke the idea! So im sure flights will resume on time- with NZ crews, Thai crews, short haul Qantas crews, MAM crews and the non union crew members not striking!!

Have a great day guys, and i will see you onboard!!!

Mikey
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:08 pm

Last month Qantas announced it would establish a London base for 400 international flight attendants from June 2005.
I would have expected a base in LAX, considering all of the flights that they have.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
acefreighter
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:49 pm

Just for the record, BA do not have any pilots or cabin crew based in Sydney.

They do have cabin crew bases in HKG, Japan, India, S America, Middle East but not Oz.
 
airnewzealand
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:54 pm

RE SAFETYDUDE...

LAX base is planning to be opened within 2-3 years... Right now on the 747-400 we have 3-4 NZ cabin Crew and the rest Aussie based crew!

Cheers
Mikey
 
Dehowie
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:52 pm

Nothing like bit of Union bashing is there guys.
ChrisworldB777
"Perhaps we need a repeat of the 1989 fiasco which will teach them a lesson".
Just what we need another repeat of the most blatant overabuse of government power seen in Australia's history.
If your age is accurate you have no idea what you are talking about.
The number of lives,careers,families destoyed in that dispute would leave no-one ever wishing it upon your worst enemy.
The 89 dispute is an everpresent feature today of aviation in Australia having derailed many careers and still has many open wounds which are visible to all who work in the industry.Do you??

Aussie747
Qantas workers and unions just take a good long hard look at yourselves. The rest of the world is adaptable to all changes, just grow up and accept it.

Sorry mate but standing up for both your rights and work conditions is a fundamental principle in the western world(well everywhere except under a Howard government).
It seems adaptable means poorer conditions,greater work hours and less entitlements.
Mmm fair deal,yea right?
Given Qantas is heading for its second record profit in a row in the worst aviation environment ever you really have to ask what more do management want?
Darren
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krisworldB777
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:18 am

Dehowie:

There’s nothing quite like a pilot trying to grasp basic commercial principles and the notion of competition.

In the 1989 dispute, it is important to consider that it basically brought the whole country to a standstill and had the potential to severely jeopardise the economy. The government had every right to intervene in that matter to protect the interests of all Australians – that is what a government mandate is for.

It is also worth you considering the number of lives, careers and families that were destroyed with the collapse of Ansett after the unions got their way and forced staff expenditure to levels so very unsustainable.
 
SafetyDude
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:33 am

LAX base is planning to be opened within 2-3 years... Right now on the 747-400 we have 3-4 NZ cabin Crew and the rest Aussie based crew!

There we go!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:39 am

Who here is talking about Ansett??
Who here said anything about rejecting the whole LHR base altogether? Had the management team at QF spoken to ITS staff prior to them setting up a LHR base, then they would have heard the ideas that the crew are in favor of implementing so that the base would go ahead. Like I said, why take all SYD based crew off the London trip. Why not place 2-3 per trip?
Please do not insult the crew in saying they are not willing to adapt!!

Inflexible attitude??? Where? As I have stated before, crew have undergone many changes over the last few years especially in light of 9/11. Yet crew still hear management complain about "the tough times" all while posting record profits. By taking off 1 crew member per aircraft I am not sure on the numbers, but one can only imagine how much money QF saves per year. Must be in the tens of millions for sure! So please do not call crew "INFLEXIBLE & LAZY".

AirNewZealand:
I too have many friends working for QF based in AKL.From what I hear most are NOT happy with their conditions. They may not complain to management directly, yet they vent their anger other ways. As was the case when the majority of them would call in sick in SYD because "their slip time was too short". Please don't think that your job is secure. Simply because you are overseas based, does not mean that Australian crew will be the first to go since they are more expensive. No, no. It does not work that way. As a contract, foreign based crew, I would be very worried should things ever go bad. After all, the company has publicly stated time and time again that no Australian position would be made redundant as a result of foreign bases.
As for MAM crew, Short haul, AKL and Thai crew covering ALL flights should Australian crew strike . . . Are you serious? Keep in mind that Short haul crew cannot operate 744's.

All in all I support the decision undertaken by the crew at QF. After all they DO have a right to fight for their conditions.
 
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ClassicLover
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:19 pm

From what you say TBCITDG, the crew are just having a whinge about not being able to go to London anymore.

I can see why that would annoy them.

Either way, I reckon Qantas management will do the right thing for the company and the staff. They usually do.

Trent.
I do quite enjoy a spot of flying - more so when it's not in Economy!
 
miami1
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:27 pm

AIRNEWZEALAND
Hi mikey. cant wait too see you onboard either with your attitude. Are you a NZ wanna be who never got in ? and for a start you knew exactly what the contract conditions in AKL where like before you started so stop carrying on.

KrisWorldB777

why is it all SQ people and QF experts. London base is going too average 220 t0 250 hours per 56 day roster . thats alot of hours by any standard. and for 24500 pounds per year and that includes allowances and no overtime at all. as far as the annualised lump sum is concerned its a simple cash advance on the 24500 to assist people in setting up in london initially. its NOT IN ADDITION TOO. and for locally employed people they get substantially less salary benefits. I have attended the company meetings and the managers stated this quite clearly.

Considering we pay 48per cent tax on our current australian wages living in australia at our salary level. being a single income person in sydney and being away for over six months of the year. and considering Qantas had a13pc productivity gain this year alone on each long haul cabin crew. IM WORTH EVERY CENT I EARN. Maybe australia is playing catch up with the rest of the world but it doesnt have to be that Qantas are continuously talking doom and gloom and putting down the very people that work hard too get it where it is.
 
TBCITDG
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:00 pm

I am sure that crew are not having a whinge simply because they will no longer be able to fly to LHR. I am sure the crew would have rather complained when QF pulled out or FCO, EZE, CDG (in the future).The issue behind all of this is that at the end of the day it will effect peoples wages. This same concept was implemented in Air New Zealand by the current manager. Just ask the Air New Zealand crew how bad a LHR base was for them.

Another reason Sydney crew depend on these long fights so that they get a 'block' of 5-6 days at home, so that they can spend some time with friends and family. If this base was to go ahead, you would have LHR zig-zagging back and forth from LHR to Asia and on the other side Australian crew between OZ and Asia with hardly any days off in between.

As for the pay and conditions: Who can afford to live in London with what the company is offering their staff. Some managers have even stated "you'll have the opportunity to commute from Spain or Portugal, but lets face it, if you have to work 250 hours per roster, who'll have the time even to commute??

This is QF's answer to cheap off shore contract labor. I have no doubt about that.
More power to the QF crew!
 
anstar
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:07 pm

Hmmm, makes you wonder if QF crew will ever be happy. You are one of the highest paid in the industry.

If you DONT like it, leave or go to another carrier. QF aren't going to change their accountants way of thinking anytime soon! (Which is a shame!)

[Edited 2004-07-23 10:10:00]
 
aussie747
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:51 pm

If you can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. There are plenty of other jobs even within the travel service industry.

I have been working in service and travel industries without the aid of unions and disgruntled employers for over 15 years. All they serve is to styme productivity levels among other things.

In this day and age with aviation being such a dynamic and changing industry employees must serve to be dynamic and willing to change as well.

What is the arguement; 400 jobs to be offered overseas. So what, the QF group will over the next year or so be hiring more that 400 cabin crew anyway so there is no nett loss of Australian based crew. Not one job will be lost.





 
Marara
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RE: Qantas Staff To Strike During December

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:32 am

Hey Mikey,

I would have another look at the conditions for the LHR base if I were you. Not as rosy as the picture you paint. You will prob find there is less than 380 based AKL because through the current BA / LIRJ), Italy">EBA overseas based crew are limited to 370 and that includes the BKK based staff. Crew will not be employed directly through QF but through a new company being set up at the moment - similar set up to how your being employed through addecco (except QF will own the company Qantas Cabin Crew UK or something similar crew). The union are trying to protect its members from the conditions QF have given to you.


With regards to keeping flights crewed during any industrial action, it all depends on how long the strike goes for. Everyone has limitations placed on the amount of hours they are allowed to operate. Industrial action doesn't have to mean striking. The Work To Rule EI crew actioned a while ago was really effective, or they could go for the no smile action I think it was CX cabin crew tried a few years ago ( lol come on I know someone is going to say 'would anyone notice'). There will be no way the FAAAdomestic will allow its members to interfere with their 'sister's' (the FAAAinternational) industrial action. While I know some crew do support the LHR base there are alot of crew that dont - the crew that continue to operate during any strikes (scabs/Strikebreaker) will not be popular with striking crew, remember you still have to work with them.

Not being nasty but when the lax base opens up the AKL base isnt going to be as attractive to QF - They can get their Lax based crews to fly AKL and you can bet the ex SYD rotations will dry up. Goodluck with the new job.

From a pax point of view I would be really annoyed with QF if I were to board a QF aircraft and not here ONE aussie accent from any of the staff on a Euro-SIN/BKK flight, and if QF gets its way you can add JNB - Aust or any US flights to the Aussieless crew flights. Which is what QF have said they are 'looking at'.

What happens to the aussies wanting a job @ QF longhaul ? the hundreds placed on a 'shortlist' waiting for a position to become available for over a year only to receive a letter saying 'sorry bud' the same day QF announce their LHR intentions.

It is true that current aussie staff have been offered positions at LHR @ 24500. If they cant fill the base with aussies they will hire brits @ a lower rate (Quite a bit from what iv heard). There has also been nothing from QF as to what happens when the 2 year contract being offered is up, whether QF employs straight from the UK @ the lower rate or whether Aussies will be able to apply. So while the jobs arent being sent offshore initially this could well happen in the near future.

Alot of people have been comparing the pay to BAs base pay. What ppl dont realize is that the BA figure is BASE PAY and that allowances are added, QF is allowance inclusive. The other thing is the BA figure is for EuroFleet (dont know the LHRWW base pay which would be a fairer comparison as I havent seen them hire directly for ages).

IF the QF agreed to advertise LHR based positions in australia before in the UK, put the LHR based crew on the same conditions as AU based (remember this is all about saving on hotel costs and allowances - not crew pay  Yeah sure - from the horses mouth) and employed the staff through Qantas rather than some new company im sure the union would at least consider the idea.

But the union only officially hearing 2 hours before its announced to the media isnt the way to get them onside is it.

Not very good for a company being protected on the LAX run because its Australian and employs Australians. Be interesting to see if the Govt steps in... after all it is election year and there have been a few mumbles out of the labor party.
I like work: it fascinates me. I can sit and look at it for hours. Jerome K Jerome

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