DIA
Topic Author
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Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:18 am

I was just looking at a business trip back east, from Denver, and came up with this:

Mon 23-Aug-04

Denver (DEN)
Depart 7:50 am to Atlanta (ATL)
Arrive 12:36 pm
Terminal N 1207 mile(s)
(1942 km)
Duration: 2hr 46mn

Flight: 1700

Economy/Coach Class, Boeing 737-700, 90% on time


I thought the Denver route was to be served exclusively with the 717. Looks like Airtran liked the performance of the 737 on the Denver route and wants to put it back on the route. Anybody know something here?
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gr8slvrflt
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:25 am

Currently the 737 is operating two flights a day to DEN from ATL (the 3rd and sometimes 4th use 717s) and a couple a day from ATL to MCO and TPA. Beginning in September they will also be flying two a day ATL-SFO and one ATL-LAX.
I work for Southwest, but the views expressed are my own and do not necessarily represent those of Southwest.
 
PHLBOS
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:28 am

I thought the Denver route was to be served exclusively with the 717. Looks like Airtran liked the performance of the 737 on the Denver route and wants to put it back on the route. Anybody know something here?

I believe that the DEN-ATL routes may have been proven to be too long of a range for the 717; I thought that these routes in the past have been handled by the Ryan International A320s. Any 717 flights to/from DEN, to my knowledge, would most likely be going to/from DFW.

I could be mistaken on this.


[Edited 2004-07-22 17:30:56]
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DIA
Topic Author
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:31 am

No, no. DEN has recieved nonstop flights from ATL with thew 717. . .it was like that for a very long time, from the very beginning of DEN service by Airtran. Yes, it was Airtran's longest 717 route.

Thanks for the info.
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scottysair
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:57 am

This is correct for FL is using on the 717 route to DEN.
 
rumorboy
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:02 am

Actually the 717 flys MSP-MCO and that is longer than ATL-DEN.

If you look at the schedule it looks like the 737s will take over all the Ryan flying by NOV 12th. I think come Sept. ATL-DEN goes back to all 717.
 
LRGT
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:01 am

What about LAX-HNL and LAS-HNL...I made a new thread for that.
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
quickmover
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:33 am

I think the 737 is better on fuel for the longer flights. The 717 can reach most of the routes, but is a better jet for the short hops up and down the east coast, Florida and the midwest. They are probably just trying to use each type where it can be the most efficient.
 
JayDavis
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:20 pm

You know what really gets me? In this month's Airways magazine, the president of AirTran, Joe Leonard is quoted as saying, "we just can't get the numbers to work on the winglets". That just boggles my mind. How can he say that? You (AirTran) cannot spend $1 million on a set of winglets that will save you 5% to 8% of your fuel burn on each flight? I could understand, possibly, if they were going to do short hauls with the 737's, but that isn't the case. They were mainly intended to do the long hauls and replace Ryanair.

Seems to me that Southwest, ATA, and I even think Aloha, could make the numbers work with the winglets, why can't AirTran? I would think that anything that WN did, I'd certainly want to try it also, because you know WN looked at that issue backwards, forwards, upside down, etc.....before they decided to add the winglets.

Just a really stupid decision to not put them on the planes if you ask me.


Jay
 
airtran737
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:23 pm

Look at the route map. Most of our flying is under two hours. It doesn't make sense to put the winglets on the planes. Word has it that when we option up to the 737-800, the 800 will have the winglets.
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SegmentKing
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:28 pm

because the winglets slow ya down!!!

-n
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pilottim747
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:53 pm

AirTran has told the Metropolitan Airports Commission (MAC) that MSP will receive B737-700 service towards the end of the year. My guess is that MSP-MCO will no longer by FLs longest B717 flight.

pilottim747
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AirframeAS
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:02 pm

You know what really gets me? In this month's Airways magazine, the president of AirTran, Joe Leonard is quoted as saying, "we just can't get the numbers to work on the winglets".

Think about it....its all about WEIGHT and balance.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
JayDavis
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:43 am

No AirframeAS, it is NOT about WEIGHT and balance.............

Are you saying that WN and ATA have problems with weight and balance on their aircraft that have the winglets? I don't think so. The winglets DO cost more obviously and they aren't just giving them away, yet I would think that over the course of the aircraft's lifetime, the winglets could cause their fuel savings to be over $1 million dollars, which is about how much a pair cost these days.

Airtran737, yes, most of your flying is under two hours, yet you can't tell me that all these new 737's are going to be flying two hour segments. These new aircraft are going to be used for longer hauls to such city pairs as
ATL-LAX, ATL-LAS, ATL-SFO, etc.........the winglets save money. It is that simple and for AirTran's management team to not get them, makes no sense to me. A bad decision in my opinion.


Jay
 
gigneil
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:57 am

You (AirTran) cannot spend $1 million on a set of winglets that will save you 5% to 8% of your fuel burn on each flight?

First off, nobody has ever claimed 5% to 8%, even Boeing.

Secondly, obviously Leonard doesn't believe they will get those savings, or he would have ordered them.

N
 
JayDavis
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:51 am

I swear I have seen the ads on the back of Air Transport World and the other mags such as Airliners and Airways and am almost certain they claim a fuel savings of that amount.............no matter what, to me, if they save fuel, they save $$$$.............you would just write off the cost of them over a longer period of time.

As I said earlier, if WN believes they can help save WN some $$$$, I'd be ordering them on my planes also............copycat or not...........

Maybe they wanted to spend that $1 million they save on each aircraft for that wonderful new paint scheme somebody came up with.... Smile
 
AA737-823
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:04 pm

Sorry, Gigneil, everybody claims 5% or 6%. Aviation Partners Boeing claims this. The copy of their ad on August 2004 issue of AIRWAYS reads, "Blended winglets cut soaring fuel costs by up to 5%."

Jay, I am inclined to agree with you, though not as strongly. Southwest put them on, and we all know they fly their -700s on short (as in, LESS THAN ONE HOUR) hops like BWI-CMH. WN has very few transcon routes, compared to the large number of -700s they are fitting winglets to. But if WN figured it made cents, why didn't AirTran jump for it? They're doing the ATL-LAX/etc stuff... oh well, it's their money.

R
 
trijetfan1
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:06 pm

Doesnt FL fly Atlanta-Moline/Quad City on a 737-700?
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srbmod
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:11 pm

The #1 reason why AirTran's 737-700s do not have winglets is due to the tight gate layout @ ATL. If they still had everything set up the way it was prior to the 4 gates they added on C in late 1999-early 2000, then they might have gotten them. Those winglets are not cheap, and with space on the ramp at many gates being so tight, they'd probably have to replace several winglets at month if they had them.
 
JayDavis
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:15 pm

That is a terrible reason for not getting the winglets! They could put the 737's down at gates 1 and 2 or whatever those gates are number at the very end of Terminal C, next to that runway...............

Just a dumb move in my opinion...............

You have to realize, even though AirTran has turned it around and is doing quite well, they have a lot of USAirways management on board and lets face it, USAirways management hasn't been doing too well the past few years....

One other thing, when most of the media mentions low cost carriers, they only mention WN and B6..........maybe the media thinks those two are the only ones who are "doing it right" in terms of operational strategy for a LCC?


Jay
 
AirframeAS
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:08 pm

Just how much does one winglet alone weigh? Probably depends on the type of composite used.
A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
 
vatveng
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:44 pm

One other thing, when most of the media mentions low cost carriers, they only mention WN and B6..........maybe the media thinks those two are the only ones who are "doing it right" in terms of operational strategy for a LCC?

Southwest and especially JetBlue are media darlings. A lot of the same reporters that wet themselves over JetBlue still think AirTran = ValuJet, and don't bother with them.

But rest assured there's some hack out there just waiting for a small scrap of bad news about JetBlue so he can pounce on them with an Enquirer-style screaming headline about some rumor of a minor screwup.
 
vatveng
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:04 pm

That is a terrible reason for not getting the winglets! They could put the 737's down at gates 1 and 2 or whatever those gates are number at the very end of Terminal C, next to that runway

So restrict the 737 to only 2 gates at the hub, when they will outnumber the 717s in a few years?

Here's my prediction (and this is purely speculation on my part): AirTran has said they are going spend some time beefing up point-to-point schedules between the cities they already serve, bypassing Atlanta. (For example, the new CAK-BOS, PHF-BOS, and DFW-LAX flights.) Since a lot of these flights will likely have lower loads than the connecting flights, the point-to-point schedules will be served by the 717s while the slightly larger 73Gs will take over a majority of the hub flying. This will lead to mostly 73Gs in Atlanta. Again, this is just my opinion, we'll have to wait until a lot more of the 37s are delivered before we see anything like this.
 
airtran737
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:10 pm

Actually Jay AirTran is composed of mostly ex Northwest management. Some guys have been at US, but the vast majority have been boys from NW. Joe Leonard, Jack Smith, JP Dagon, Susan Manfreddi, Stan Gadek, Bob Fornaro, Loral Blinde, and countless station managers are all former NW employees.
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quickmover
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:29 pm

Were they not from Eastern before that?
 
airtran737
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:45 pm

Leonard, and Kolski were. I'm not sure about the others.
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
JayDavis
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:25 pm

AirTran737, here is what your own web site says about Bob Fornaro.

From 1992 to 1998, Fornaro served as senior vice president - planning for US Airways where he directed the company's route planning, pricing and revenue management and overall corporate strategy. Before joining US Airways, Fornaro held the position of senior vice president - marketing planning at Northwest Airlines. His responsibilities included managing Northwest's international alliances and regional airline partner relationships.

So technically, he was at US before NW.............

Here is also info about Kevin Healy...........

Healy previously served in management positions with US Airways' pricing, yield management and revenue analysis departments. In 1982, he began his airline career at Piedmont Airlines, serving in various customer service positions as well as yield management.





[Edited 2004-07-24 15:28:25]
 
elwood64151
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:01 pm

You know what really gets me? In this month's Airways magazine, the president of AirTran, Joe Leonard is quoted as saying, "we just can't get the numbers to work on the winglets". That just boggles my mind. How can he say that?

He *may* be talking about gate space there, not fuel consumption...

"Blended winglets cut soaring fuel costs by up to 5%."

I'm sure the ad also says, "according to a study by..." OR "on certain routes..." or something to that effect...

Studies by others might have shown that FL wouldn't make those savings.

Doesnt FL fly Atlanta-Moline/Quad City on a 737-700?

No. Unless it's to position an aircraft for the MLI-LAS flight...

A lot of the same reporters that wet themselves over JetBlue still think AirTran = ValuJet, and don't bother with them.

JetBlue has two other advantages.

1) They are based in New York City at JFK, which means they are as close to the media as you can get (NBC, CBS, NewsCorp all have their primary news outlets here).

2) They made a big splash by being well financed, having TVs in the seats, and having an excellent promotion strategy that has yet to be equalled in the industry.

JayDavis:

That's TWO PEOPLE. What about all the other people mentioned who are ex-NW?

Besides, 1992-1998 were the "Golden Years" for USAir. If you could call it that...
Those who fail to learn history are doomed to repeat it in summer school.
 
airtran737
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:06 am

Did I not say that some of them were at US? They all ended up at NW and formed the good old boys club, and then moved it to FL
Nice Trip Report!!! Great Pics, thanks for posting!!!! B747Forever
 
srbmod
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RE: Airtran 737-700 Routes Still Being Determined?

Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:14 am

They've had a few other ex-NW people blow through there, Marilyn Rogers, who was Sr. VP-Customer Service several years back came to FL from NW, and was also ex-EAL. The ATL station manager for most of the time I was working there was ex-NW (I was there from June 1999 to May 2000), who fired had him as a result of the DTW snowstorm debacle in early 1999.

Only four members of AirTran's upper management have never worked for Northwest or Eastern at some point in their career. But they do have experience with other big airlines, including US Airways, Canadian, Lufthansa, and Delta. AirTran's got a pretty well put together management team, it's definitely improved in the four years since I worked there. If AirTran continues to have the success that they are having, these guys will be getting offers from quite a few airlines.