User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Crew
Posts: 3795
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:35 am

From Bloomberg

By Andrea Rothman and Rebecca Barr
July 22 (Bloomberg) -- Airbus SAS, the largest maker of
commercial aircraft, expects to win a Virgin Atlantic Airways
Ltd. order for about 20 A340-600 planes worth $4 billion as early
as next week, said Airbus Chief Executive, Noel Forgeard.
``Discussions are very advanced but not completely
concluded,'' said Forgeard in an interview at the Farnborough Air
show. The A340-600, Airbus's biggest plane at 380 seats, has a
list price of $207 million, making a 20-plane order worth $4
billion excluding any discounts.

snip

Boeing Co., which had been talking to Virgin Atlantic about
buying 777s, said those talks have ended. ``We are not engaged in
active discussions with Virgin Atlantic,'' said spokesman Todd
Blecher in a telephone interview.

snip

Still open but looks like Boeing best offer is on the table and not changing


Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
vulindlela744
Posts: 427
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 3:03 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:59 am

Seems like VS just like the 4 holers. Well for the long haul they definately are the more economical of the 2. Airbus is taking over. Hopefully Boeing will have a hit with their 7E7. Time will tell.
 
User avatar
clickhappy
Posts: 9042
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 12:10 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:00 am

Well for the long haul they definately are the more economical of the 2

Eh? A four-engine plane is more economical than a 2-engine plane?
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:07 am

Seems like VS just like the 4 holers.

Ha... it's called marketing. Besides, the A346 is established in VS fleet, it makes little sense to integrate an almost identical type, unless the economics are very compelling.

Well for the long haul they definately are the more economical of the 2

Hmm... I think a good number would care to disagree

Airbus is taking over

That couldn't be further from the truth. The 773ER and 772LR beat their competition in all relevant comparisons, but that's for another discussion. Airbus taking over? Hardly! SQ is expected to place an equally large (if not larger) order for Boeing widebodies toward the end of the month.
 
LRGT
Posts: 675
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2004 12:29 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:13 am

Isn't the A340-600 bigger than the 747-400??? (while at the same time hauling more cargo and burning less fuel)

I know none have been put in a higher density configuration so right now in terms of # of seats, the 747D's and tourist 747-200's still beat the S T R E T C H bus in numbers.
Don't bring up the NW DC9's unless you have to!
 
DfwRevolution
Posts: 8538
Joined: Sat Jan 09, 2010 7:31 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:16 am

Isn't the A340-600 bigger than the 747-400??? (while at the same time hauling more cargo and burning less fuel)

Well, the A346 is longer, but the 744 carries more than 35 passengers (I'd imagine even more if you configured the A346 in a Boeing layout), has a much higher MTOW, ect. I'd imagine the A346 burns less fuel as it is a smaller aircraft, but in terms of seat/mile cost, I'd bet they would be closely matched.
 
boeingbus
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sat May 29, 2004 12:37 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:17 am

Well, I believe a lot of this is due to the fact that they are stuck with their 'outdated' marketing slogan... For them to reverse this would be against what they were preaching for many years and this is in part what built the Virgin brand.

Would be interesting to know the % of passengers feel safer in a 4 engine plane? I bet its real high as most people are ignorant in this subject.

But who knows the validity to this maybe its all for a better deal so I'll believe it when I see it...
Airbus or Boeing - it's all good to me!
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:20 am

"Would be interesting to know the % of passengers feel safer in a 4 engine plane? I bet its real high as most people are ignorant in this subject."

I doubt it is a very high proportion at all, most of the travelling public I know don't have a clue what type of aircraft they are flying in, nevermind how many engines it has. Getting them to remember the seating layout is sometimes hard enough, they don't really care!
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17049
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:22 am

Well for the long haul they definately are the more economical of the 2

Eh? A four-engine plane is more economical than a 2-engine plane?


It depends on more things than the number of engines.

While fuel burn on the long-haul MAY be lower on the four-holer due to decreased total weight (lower total engine thrust=smaller engines) and lower thrust settings, maintenance costs may be higher due to twice as many engines. Also, there is more that can break on a 4-holer, giving potentially higher risk of delays.

The length of the route, prevailing winds and weather, altitude and temperature at airports can all affect costs greatly.

Then we have fleet commonality. Not only in terms of parts, but in terms of training for maintenance, pilots and cabin crew. Also, the cost maintenance contracts will vary with the number of airframes and any additional maintenance contract is associated with additional fixed costs, not to mention the cost of negotiations.

Finally, the purchase or leasing cost of the plane has a huge impact, which may well lead an airline to choose a plane with higher operating cost. Any investment has to be compared to other investments in it's entirety for the duration of the planned life of the investment. And of course in this calculation you have to consider planned divestment income.


In other words, there are many factors which have a much bigger economic effect than a simple count of the holes.

[Edited 2004-07-22 20:26:26]
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
dutchjet
Posts: 7714
Joined: Sat Oct 14, 2000 6:13 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:26 am

Virgin is looking for a very good deal on new aircraft and to lock in very low prices for future aircraft for fleet renewal and expansion. This order is all about price - even if VS concluded that the 773ER was the beter performing aircraft, the better priced aircraft will win the order - its likely that many of the A346 aircraft will end up on transatlantic runs and services from London to South Africa, and for these routes, the A346 is just fine and the marginal advantages that the 773ER may offer are not very important. The four engine thing, in my opinion, is nothing more than silly marketing nonsense put forth by media-happy Branson to counter BA's wide-spread use of big twins on long haul routes.

I really hoped that Boeing would secure a big order from Virgin - while it still can happen, recent information seems to indicate that Airbus will get this order. Boeing, at the last minute, can always cut prices and make a last minute proposal to Virgin, but this kind of behavior has not been typical of Boeing in recent years.

This competition will go down to the last minute, I really dont have much faith in press releases like this one as such items are usually only put out there to put pressure on the manufacturers. Only when there is an offical order from Virgin can we be sure if its the 773 or A346.
 
airbus3801
Posts: 1047
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2004 12:49 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:30 am

YEE HAW!!!!!! VS

The A346 is just fine for VS and I don't see why everyone is so upset that they didn't buy precious Boeings. I don't see why VS would have even boughten any 777's because they already have the A346's making it not econimical to buy a completly new aircraft type when you can just supplement a already substantial aircraft in the fleet.
 
Udo
Posts: 4288
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 5:16 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:39 am

I also believe it's still open. Placing an order for another 20 A346 would almost mean the end of any B777 options in the future at VS...and can Richard Branson, often leader of innovations, really live with running several airlines but NOT operating what is regarded as the best performing long haul type available? I guess he is not enjoying a good sleep in these days...

And forget about the slogan...Richy would change it faster than we can imagine...

I won't be convinced about these 20 A346 until the order will finally be confirmed...no matter what Foregeard says.


Regards
Udo
Me & You & a Plane Named Blue...
 
scottysair
Posts: 6442
Joined: Tue Mar 28, 2000 4:07 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:01 am

This is very good news for VS and make more orders of A346 aircraft. They are really like with A346 aircraft and will even to make get more long haul flight?
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17049
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:04 am

The four engine thing, in my opinion, is nothing more than silly marketing nonsense put forth by media-happy Branson to counter BA's wide-spread use of big twins on long haul routes.

It may be silly marketing nonsense but VS is great at using silly marketing nonsense (this slogan being only a small part of the total amount of silly marketing nonsense) and turning silly marketing nonsense into not so silly operating profits.


As Udo says, if it needs changing, it will to be changed.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Crew
Posts: 3795
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:12 am

Even though just another media release I thought it relevent to post given who was quoted. I, too, like Udo will see it to believe it no matter what is stated publicly.

As Dutchjet said, it comes down to the last minute. Just look at IB and the A346 order as a great example of that. To me it still isn't a closed deal and Boeing may well win the day or any chance of a split order?

Regards
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
bristolflyer
Posts: 2103
Joined: Fri May 14, 2004 1:35 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:18 am

They couldn't go and buy 2 engine planes otherwise it would be contradictory to their slogans on the planes - "4 engines 4 longhaul".

BF
Fortune favours the brave
 
DIA
Posts: 3053
Joined: Sun Jan 28, 2001 2:24 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:27 am

Only 20!? What a waste of time. . .20, hmmmfff! *Tiff*Tiff*  Big grin

On the serious side. . . Is VS planning on replacing its entire 744 fleet with these new "concourse-length" a/c?
Ding! You are now free to keep supporting Frontier.
 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:41 am

Seems like VS just like the 4 holers.
I would say that VS likes a good deal.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
trident2e
Posts: 1286
Joined: Sun Dec 28, 2003 3:38 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:46 am

I'm sure VS could change their marketing if they ordered 777s. They could argue that in this day and age long haul means 18 hours of flying and anything less than that is medium haul. So, they could have 'four engines for long haul' and 'two engines for transatlantic'! (And if he uses that I'll expect a big fat royalty cheque!)
 
JeffDCA
Posts: 473
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2004 7:12 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:09 am

Well for the long haul they definately are the more economical of the 2

Eh? A four-engine plane is more economical than a 2-engine plane?


It's quite possible that it could be. The 4 Trent 500's used on the A345/A346 are cheaper to maintain than 2 GE90-115B's. Also, due to the increased number of engines, each engine doesn't have to do as much work as on a twin configuration, and that means less fuel usage per engine, and also less maintenance.

Of course, becuase of the 4 engines using less fuel per engine on a 4-engine config, and there only being 2 engines on a twin jet config, i would have thought the fuel usage would work out about the same for each. In other words, i'd have thought the 777 and A340 would cost around the same to operate.

Cheers,

Jeff
If something hasn't broken on your helicopter, it's about to.
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3540
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:11 am

"Isn't the A340-600 bigger than the 747-400??? (while at the same time hauling more cargo and burning less fuel)"

The 744 can carry more passengers due to it being wider, but the A346 can carry way more cargo than the 744, it can hold almost as much as a 744 just in the forward hold alone. Cargo also makes more money than passengers too.

 Smile
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
Ken777
Posts: 9020
Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 5:39 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:25 am

Interesting that an "expected order" was announced instead of a MoU. Bit of Airbus flash during the air show? While it may be a rocket up B's @ss it may also be an invitation for B to push the price down even more. That might not get the deal for B, but it would cut A's gross margin even more.

Personally I think VS might be sitting back, waiting for another bum fight between A & B in order to get the price down even more. I can see Sir Richard telling A, "Let's hold off on the MoU for a while, there has been some price movement on the 777 . . ."
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:28 am

Compromise -- VS could use 777 on overland routes (S. Africa, etc) and use the A346s on the transoceanic/polar routes.  Wink/being sarcastic
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:31 am

I'd imagine the A346 burns less fuel as it is a smaller aircraft, but in terms of seat/mile cost, I'd bet they would be closely matched.

They aren't. The 346 offers an extremely superior fuel burn, and, across longer stages, the 346 can carry significantly more payload.

The 744 at SAA is a prime example. Their 346 can carry a great deal more payload out of JNB across their longer stages.

N
 
AJet
Posts: 50
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 12:29 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:56 am

JeffDCA,

the engines' power has to be high enough to let the aircraft take off safely in case of an engine failure. This means a twin jet must be able to fly with 50% of its max thrust, while a 4-holer has to fly safely with 75% of its max thrust. Hence the max thrust on a twin jet must be much higher, and the 2 engines of a twin are heavier than the 4 engines of a 4-holer. Being heavier, the aircraft needs more fuel.

Cheers,

Nicolas
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2460
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:11 am

"Being heavier, the aircraft needs more fuel."

Yes, if the engines were flying themselves. Unfortunately, they are not. If we are simply talking about fuel burn, I'm afraid the 777-300ER beats the A340-600 without much effort.

Two important stats to demonstrate. First, weight (in lbs.):

A340-600
MTOW: 804,700*
OEW: 390,300*
Max. Payload: 139,900*

777-300ER
MTOW: 775,000
OEW: 370,000
Max. Payload: 154,000


And second, fuel usage:

A340-600
Range: 8,635 s.m.*
Fuel: 51,480 U.S.g.

777-300ER
Range: 9,065 s.m.
Fuel: 47,890 U.S.g.


Therefore, the 777-300ER is lighter and flies a heavier payload farther on less fuel than the A340-600.

All data is publically available.

Regards,

Hamlet69

* - Airbus has proposed an A340-600"HGW" which has been ordered by both Emirates and Qatar. However, as of yet, official specs have not been released.
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
User avatar
Richard28
Posts: 1619
Joined: Thu Aug 14, 2003 5:42 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:25 am

I understand that their some airports (I believe ones which require a plane to do a 180 degree turn to taxi back down the runway) that cannot facilitate the A346 (because of no steerable main gear?)

DO VS operate to any of these airports unsuitable for the A346?

Rich.
 
NWA742
Posts: 4505
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 11:35 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:30 am

Well for the long haul they definately are the more economical of the 2.

Wrong. For basic terms of fuel burn per mile, twins are usually more efficient than quads that are in the same class. Hamlet69 provided some simple data that'll prove that in the case of the 773ER vs. A346.

If you factor in commonality savings and route structure, numbers can very all the time.



-NWA742
Some people are like slinkies - not good for anything, but they bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17049
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:40 am

No matter what, there are so many other economic factors involved. Fuel burn is only one of many considerations.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
Btblue
Posts: 528
Joined: Thu Mar 18, 2004 4:57 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:33 am

I bet they go with the 777.
146/2/3 737/2/3/4/5/7/8/9 A320 1/2/18/19/21 DC9/40/50 DC10/30 A300/6 A330/2/3 A340/3/6 A380 757/2/3 747/4 767/3/4 787 77
 
whitehatter
Posts: 5180
Joined: Sat Jun 12, 2004 6:52 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:34 am

I have a feeling they could go with both. He's done it in the past, when VS ordered the 747 and A340 at roughly the same time.
Lead me not into temptation, I can find my own way there...
 
gigneil
Posts: 14133
Joined: Fri Nov 08, 2002 10:25 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:39 am

Hamlet69 provided some simple data that'll prove that in the case of the 773ER vs. A346.


Not because its a quad, but because the A340 is very heavy.

I bet they go with the 777.

Despite Boeing saying there were no active deals in progress?

N
 
Greg
Posts: 5539
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 1:11 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:41 am

I enjoy both aircraft....it's pointless to pick apart which one is better---they are actually quite comparable. Further, the -300er has had less than a quarter of experience under it's belt...so no meaningful statistics can be evaluated.

If you factor in the 10-20% less on acquisition cost of the Airbus....the block hour cost goes down significantly due to less depreciation and payment/rental expense---the single largest cost of operation.

 
SafetyDude
Posts: 3654
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:50 am

Compromise -- VS could use 777 on overland routes (S. Africa, etc) and use the A346s on the transoceanic/polar routes.
Seeing that the 777s having ETOPS, I do not see VS ordering the 777s for that reason.

I understand that their some airports (I believe ones which require a plane to do a 180 degree turn to taxi back down the runway) that cannot facilitate the A346 (because of no steerable main gear?)

DO VS operate to any of these airports unsuitable for the A346?

The only airports in VS' destinations that I can think of are in Nigeria, India, and the Caribbean, but I believe that the 346 is simply too much for those airports, and that is why 343s are used - although if the 346s are too much, there answering why 744s are used could be harder.

My best answer is that where the 744s go in the Caribbean are more efficient to operate from LGW than LHR, although there are rumors that there might be fleet movement between LGW and LHR, as well as MAN.

Someone else might be able to give a better answer.

 Smile
-Will
"She Flew For What We Stand For"
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:57 am

Personally I'm under impression, that Virgin is trying to avoid any ETOPS-related trouble, hence it's exercising it's option to get more A340-600. On the other hand, four engined aircraft fly on shorter routes, therefore they might burn less fuel than ETOPS-conforming twin engine planes, though it's probably not going to be an issue once 330-minute ETOPS are proven safe and certified by the authorities.
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
Horus
Posts: 5131
Joined: Sun Feb 22, 2004 1:04 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:59 am

though it's probably not going to be an issue once 330-minute ETOPS are proven safe and certified by the authorities.

when is that happening?

Horus

EGYPT: A 7,000 Year Old Civilisation
 
BlueSky1976
Posts: 1603
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:18 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:03 am

Theoretically, it could happen now, as Boeing proven on its 777-300ER that 330-minute ETOPS flight with one engine shut down is possible and doable. Practically, I'd say give it 10 years or so. I won't be surprised if 7E7 will be cleared for 330-minute ETOPS by FAA.
POLAND IS UNDER DICTATORSHIP. PLEASE SUPPORT COMMITTEE FOR DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACY, K.O.D.
 
VS11
Posts: 876
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:14 am

If I were Boeing or Airbus CEO, I would have approached the other in an attempt to establish collusion.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Really, they do not need to compete. You have two major aircraft manufacturers. They can collude and split the market and forcing the airlines to pay whatever they command. There are so many instances of collusion in the past, surprised that those two are not doing it.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Well, of course, collusion is bad for the consumers but Airbus and Boeing do not need to compete so violently.

Regards,
VS11
 
User avatar
Starlionblue
Posts: 17049
Joined: Fri Feb 27, 2004 9:54 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 10:36 am

Seriously, do you think fuel burn and ETOPS makes that much of a difference? I'm speculating, but I would say the diff is too small to make an impact on the difference in price and the commonality savings...

And in any case just because you don't do ETOPS doesn't mean 180 mins from the nearest airport is a cheap thing to certify for ANY airliner...
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots."
 
User avatar
scbriml
Posts: 13227
Joined: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:37 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:43 pm

I'm afraid those of you hoping for a last second switch to 777s are not reading the situation correctly. Just look at the facts:

Airbus says (when asked a direct question) "VS are very close to signing for 20 A346s."

When asked, Boeing says "We are not in any negotiations with VS."

What this means is, VS has selected the A346, has told Boeing "Thanks, but no thanks.", and are now trying to screw the last few $s out of Airbus. Neither manufacturer would say those things in public if they weren't true.

NF would have loved to announce this order at Farnborough, but it looks as though they didn't quite make it. It will be interesting to see if it's 20 firm, or if it includes options, also if VS are going for the HGW version just to annoy ConcordeBoy  Big grin

Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
 
User avatar
RayChuang
Posts: 7982
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2000 7:43 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:39 pm

Here's the big question: has Virgin Atlantic (VS) ordered the "regular" A340-600 or the upcoming A340-600HGW version with the lighter wing and higher MTOW for longer ranges?

My guess is that VS has chosen the A346HGW, mostly for flight crew, cabin crew, ground service crew and maintanence compatibility reasons (VS already flies the A346).
 
User avatar
PanAm_DC10
Crew
Posts: 3795
Joined: Wed Aug 23, 2000 7:37 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:04 pm

Hello

This story has been updated by Bloomberg with a comment from a Virgin Spokesperson which says.....

Paul Moore, a Virgin Atlantic spokesman said in a telephone
interview that Virgin doesn't yet have ``a final deal that has
been signed and sealed,'' and would make an announcement only
when it did."

It's not over till it's over as they say.
Ask the impossible to achieve the best possible
 
Hamlet69
Posts: 2460
Joined: Thu Mar 09, 2000 2:45 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:19 pm

"NF would have loved to announce this order at Farnborough, but it looks as though they didn't quite make it."

I wouldn't be so sure he'd want the full details of this deal to go public. I've now been told by a third seperate party that one of the conditions of this deal is the A380 order will be switched from 'firm' to 'reconfirmable options.' Basically, VS are trying to back out of the A380. I don't think NF or JL would like that to be made public at Farnborough.

Regards,

Hamlet69
Honor the warriors, not the war.
 
MD-11 forever
Posts: 550
Joined: Wed Mar 14, 2001 12:15 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:28 pm

@BlueSky1976

"Theoretically, it could happen now, as Boeing proven on its 777-300ER that 330-minute ETOPS flight with one engine shut down is possible and doable. Practically, I'd say give it 10 years or so. I won't be surprised if 7E7 will be cleared for 330-minute ETOPS by FAA."

Your statement is wrong. It doesn't matter if the FAA certifies the plane for 330 ETOPS. The important factor is whether the operators authority (CAA in the case of VS) is grantig the ETOPS 330 to the operator. To obtain this, you have to be quite well organised and provide a continous monitoring of reliability data. Also, when a testflight is performed with the shutdown of an engine in "lab atmosphere", this is hardly a valid arguement to me. If you have to shut down an engine NOT by choice, the situation is different.......

Cheers, Thomas
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:10 pm

Seeing that the 777s having ETOPS, I do not see VS ordering the 777s for that reason.

My post was a joke re. the "4 engines for longhaul" marketing corner that VS is in.  Smile
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
kalakaua
Posts: 1429
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:23 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:29 pm

What now?! We're bringing in the "4 engines..." crap?
What next? "Yoke is a joke" crap?!
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
planemaker
Posts: 5411
Joined: Mon Aug 25, 2003 12:53 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:47 pm

What now?! We're bringing in the "4 engines..." crap?

Obviously, you haven't bothered to read the thread -- it started in Reply 3.
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind. - A. Einstein
 
na
Posts: 9128
Joined: Sun Dec 12, 1999 3:52 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:54 pm

1. the A340-600 is a lot cheaper than the 773ER (which is the most costly airliner in existence). For the price of 20 A340-600s I bet Boeing delivers just 17 or 18 773ERs at most! Assumed that the margin for discounts for both are similar. If such a sum can ever be flown in through cheaper running costs for 777s is a question I can´t answer.
2. the pilots of the A340-300s (a type on the way out) can easily be transferred without much learning.
3. when the A380 are coming the cockpit-commonality is a important issue and saves further money compared to building up a complete new force of 777 pilots.


Btw from 2006 the leases of the first VS744s acquired in 1994 expire, but as much as I know the newest 744 lease contracts (from 2002/03) last well into the next decade.
 
kalakaua
Posts: 1429
Joined: Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:23 pm

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:07 pm

"Obviously, you haven't bothered to read the thread -- it started in Reply 3."

Because I knew this thread was going to become a fruitless A v. B battle.

While we're at it...

http://www.airbus.com/product/a330_a340_comfort.asp

LOL!!! I'm killing myself... I'm just teasing you folks. It's 2am, and I should be sleeping already.
Gravity explains the motions of the planets, but it cannot explain who set the planets in motion.
 
gearup
Posts: 514
Joined: Fri Dec 22, 2000 9:23 am

RE: Forgeard: Airbus Expects VS To Order 20 A346

Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:59 pm

BlueSky1976,

You may be right but I am sure of this: I would not want to find myself 300 minutes from the nearest suitable airport in a twin over an ocean with one engine inop, I don't care how advanced the aircraft or it's engines are. I consider the risks are not worth it. As a maintenance manager, I have worked in both the aircraft maintenance industry and the nuclear industry which are both highly regulated and where public safety are enormous considerations and in spite of heroic efforts to design and build extremely reliable equipment, guess what! It still breaks! ETOPS 180 is already pushing it too far in my view. I believe there will always be a need for quads (or even trijets).

GU
I have no memory of this place.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: 777222LR, AAlaxfan, AC853, ArtV, AS512, b777erj145, DavidByrne, EasternDC821, ek17, Google Adsense [Bot], Guillaume787, hoons90, qf789, SamoNYC, SyeaphanR, tcaeyx, vpat48 and 231 guests