pilotcoex
Posts: 102
Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 11:51 am

US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:24 am

Why is it that the US majors don't fly to Eastern Europe? Anybody...
Delta services Istanbul and Moscow, but there are other large cities like Kiev, Prague, Warsaw, etc.
 
dtwclipper
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:27 am

Most likely there is not enough money to be made there. If there was, US carriers would be there.
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ei2ksea
Posts: 436
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:29 am

Delta used to have a very extensive network to Eastern Europe in the mid-90s if my memory serves me right(?).

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TWFirst
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:29 am

Now that much of Eastern Europe has joined the EU and business will expand and the economy will gradually improve in the region, I predict there will be more demand to justify US carriers' expansion. I would think CO would be very interested in EWR-PRG, EWR-WAW, etc.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
Bicoastal
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:32 am

Code share flights with LOT, CSA, Aeroflot, Malev, etc. as well as one stop code share flights through London, Frankfurt, Amsterdam, Paris, Vienna, etc., serve the market just fine.
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Logos
Posts: 606
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:35 am

We'll see how the business connections to the US develop for those cities. For trans-atlantic service, it's all about the business customers. I'm guessing there's not enough F & C class customers to go around for US carriers alongside national carriers (LOT and CSA respectively) who serve the routes nonstop and connecting traffic thought AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA, CDG, etc.

Hey, TWFirst, we've got essentially the same signature.

Cheers,
Dave in Orlando
Too many types flown to list
 
TWFirst
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sat Jul 24, 2004 3:06 am

Hey, Logos... mine was first.  Big grin (Although I paraphrased a bit)

Take care.
An unexamined life isn't worth living.
 
ryanair
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:56 pm

Pan Am started up a big network using it's German Based 727-200's in the late 1980's as the wall came down. Flights generally flew out of Frankfurt to most of the former Eastern Blocs major cities. At the time it was thought Eastern Europe would quickly become the next major market.

Pan Am had a major domestic operation within Germany and the Eastern Bloc operation was essentially an extention of that. So the flights served three markets, from Frankfurt to Eastern Europe and feeder passengers from the rest of Germany and USA. However Pan Am sold it's German Domestic flights to Lufthansa in 1990, after which basing only a handful of 727's in Europe on fairly low utilisation was quite costly.

Delta took the operation over at the end of 1991 although streamlined things. Delta simply didn't have the market presence or expertise of Europe that Pan Am did.

Combine that with the high cost of basing 727's in Europe, Delta shut the operation down and replaced it by extending other flights (eg. 767-300 Stuttgart flights were extended to Prague). However it soon became obvious that codesharing would be cheaper than flying big 767-300's an extra two sectors a day. So most of the operation was shut down.

Only Moscow flights remain.

I guess with EU expansion it's not without question that US carriers will start to head back eventually. However expansion simply isn't on the adgenda right now  Sad
 
FLAIRPORT
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:16 pm

Delta also flies to Athens...thus, they are the official American airline of the Olympics
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L.1011
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Continental would be flying those services with 752s, but Eastern Europe is pushing the 752's range. If they had more 762ERs they could easily pull it off, the capacity is reasonably similar, but they don't.
 
Danny
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:43 pm

I remember article recently about Delta looking for connections to Eastern Europe. But for now they rather were looking for regional carrier to take passengers from AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA to Eastern destinations rather than open direct service.

Daniel
 
ChrisZRH
Posts: 404
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:01 am

last week i was at Budapest and I just saw a L-1011 ATA taking off 31L, also on a.net there's an ATA 757-300 pic! what's the reason for ATA to fly to Bud? i heard something concerning fuel stop, but where to?

regards,
chris
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Danny
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:09 am

Probably military charter. ATA often operates them as well as United.

Daniel
 
dutchjet
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:22 am

The wonderful world of code-shares and alliances have more or less ended US carriers serving destinations in Eastern Europe, secondary markets in Western Europe (such as Scandic cities) and Africa. Pan Am, and to a lesser extent TWA, had large European networks, where flights left the US destined for 2 or 3 European destinations - Pan Am and TWA (and later United and Delta) even had aircraft based in Europe to operate feeder flights from smaller cities to main hubs or gateways. Alliances and code-share arrangments have made it much more practical to fly passengers to large cities and then place them on partner flights to other destinations - pax have more choice and better service (ie daily service instead of 2 or 3 times per week frequency) and its saves money.

The good news is that airlines like CO, with the use of aircraft like the economical 757, has started routes to "secondary" European destinations like EDI and Oslo - although many at a.net are anti-757 on transatlantic routes, its only because of the practical size and good economics of the 757 can CO even consider introducing these routes. As for Eastern-Europe......there is a strong rumor that CO is very, very interested in opening an EWR-Prague nonstop service......is this route within range of the winglet-equipped 752?
 
ishky15
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:42 am

I think that EWR-Prague might be pushing the limits of the 757-200, even with the extended winglets. I do believe that Berlin and Helsinki are within its range, though, and it has been rumored that Continental is considering those cities.

Does anyone know if Continental is still interesting in serving Moscow? I think that EWR-Moscow can be done with a 762, and that aircraft seems to offer the right amount of seats for such a route.
 
dutchjet
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:18 am

Hey Ishky15 - The CO Moscow rumors seem very quiet at the moment, the chat that I hear is all about Scandanavian cities, UK regional cities (all 757 destinations), Barcelona once in a while, and the Prague rumors....maybe it depends on the exact performance and range advantage of the 752 with winglets. CO could assign another 762 to transatlantic flying (I think one EWR-LAX-EWR operates this summer with a 762).....but I think CO has another European destination out of Houston in its plans - either F R A or MAD....MAD has become less interesting due to the US transit visa rules which would make the connection less attractive for central american originating pax going to Madrid via Houston.
 
ishky15
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:25 am

Yeah, I think it's likely that we'll see a UK regional city served from Newark and AB) (FRA / FRF / EDDF), Germany">FRA or MAD served from Houston next year. Scandanavia would also be nice.

There's a few other widebodies floating around that could also be used for more transatlantic growth. EWR-SDQ and SJU off the top of my head. Not to mention the fact that Continental could replace some widebodies across the Atlantic with double daily 757 service, although there would be many complaints from people on these boards if a city like Manchester had its beloved 777 taken away for two 757s.

Would Continental be willing to fly to a city like Barcelona if Delta already serves it? Inaugurating service to Edinburgh and Oslo avoided going head to head with any of the transatlantic majors, but with only so many European cities left that warrant nonstop service from the states, it's inevitable that Continental and Delta may begin competing on several routes across the Atlantic.
 
dutchjet
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:45 am

I do not think the fact that DL serves a route out of JFK would deter CO from entering the route from EWR - CO and DL already indirectly compete on Paris, Rome, Frankfurt, Milan, Brussels, Amsterdam and other services out of the NY area - as you know, CO's stregnth out of EWR is a very good combination of strong O & D traffic plus the back-up of the huge EWR hub operation, so if CO determined that Barcelona is a good market (which it is, lots of US cruise ships are based in Barcelona for the summer and there is a need for more lift direct into that city), CO would enter the market regardless of what DL is doing.

You are right, CO does have 777s and 767s operating a couple of caribbean flights - from what I hear, the widebody to Santo Domingo especially is a real money maker for CO as it usually goes out with every seat occupied plus it hauls a tremendous amount of cargo, so I would not expect CO to drop widebody service on these routes - also, the caribbean flights leave EWR in the morning and return to EWR in the late afternoon which is a good fit with the long-haul operations for which the 777s and 767s are generally used.
 
EddieDude
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:04 am

In my opinion, of the Eastern European airports, perhaps PRG and WAW are the most likely that a U.S. carrier would consider. Other U.S.-Eastern Europe routes are well served non-stop by Eastern European carriers and by codeshares between U.S. carriers and their Western European partners.
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StarGoldLHR
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 9:50 am

I my industry (IT) I'm finding more and more eastern european presence by IT industry. Prague is fast becoming the key location in europe to "Host" IT services, due to it's cheap cost base (Buildings / Infrastructure and employment) and close and fast high speed internet proximity to Germany.

Budapest is a popular place for european IT manufacturing. I know companies like HP has plants out there.

When the IT sector next grows I would imagine US airlines would rapidly add these two destinations.

I'm surprised PRG hasnt already been picked up as it's a popular tourist destination as well. I believe PRG has a/c size restrictions as well ? Is this true ? I know there currently building a new terminal to handle larger planes as there current terminal gates are very close together, thus a problem for parking larger planes at the gate.

To be honest I would imagine BUD / PRG would be more profitable than WAW ? BUD / PRG are major tourist spots.. WAW isnt on the travel big league in my opinion, not least when I go there, it's not full of the tourist papparazzi.
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JoFMO
Posts: 1840
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:16 am

Korean is flying their 744 to Prague, so I think there is no size restriction.
 
connector4you
Posts: 768
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RE: US Airlines To Eastern Europe

Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:57 am

Relocation and redeployment of US military personnel from Germany to Poland, Romania and Bulgaria would strongly suggest that US based airline may soon start point to point direct flights to airports in these countries.

Is been rumored for some time now that Delta is eying Atlanta - Bucharest via Timisoara. Today, more of the same rumor resurfaced on Romanian mass-media!